Bafang M500 and M600 motors

[Hagbard]

RE: Superceded - you mean by the M510 and <something else, maybe I missed, a new M6** series?>

I was primarily talking about the M510, no doubt there's an M610 on the way.

Rapid obsolescence is one of the risks when buying a non-mainstream solution, particularly of Chinese origin and particularly in a field that is undergoing a huge upsurge in both popularity and progress. It's unfortunate that a more open source ethos doesn't tend to come with such products, but great that such things also tend to attract people with a more techy mindset, who are happy to tear them to pieces in the pursuit of making them better,or in my case, breaking them...!

 

[Kyokushin]

RE: Superceded - you mean by the M510 and <something else, maybe I missed, a new M6** series?>

Totally agree on knowledge maturing.
I have to say as a US-born ‘power hungry’ car and motorcycle fanatic, over time I had already adjusted on vehicles to - insane power is neat and addictive, but I also like to turn/have handling, so moved from muscle cars to forced induction Miatas of all things, and never looked back.

On ebikes - I had a BBHSD, and tired of the ‘let’s go 15 miles (max) on throttle and high assistance’ pretty quickly and was normally riding it in PAS 2 (of 9) for most trail riding, then moved on to an M600 (Ludi V2/VESC controller). I usually ride it in PAS 2 of 9, non-Ludi Trail mode (LudiV2 controller has 3 profiles for max power, throttle sensitivity etc., where max power is what you get at top PAS level, e.g. 3 of 3, 5 of 5, 9 of 9), quite happily.

I recently rented an M500 in Prague, and was expecting to be sorely underwhelmed, but I have to say, it did alright, and I rode mostly in PAS 2-3 of 9, doing a 50km ride. I certainly bumped it up higher more than on my M600 for similar riding, but it wasn’t all bad. If I wanted a motorcycle, well I have those as well, and while I think the EU speed/power restrictions are nonsensical, I can say I don’t routinely need e.g. an M620 or > 1kW peak power.

I’d be rather happy if we could source <not from Bafang> all parts to keep M500/600s running ourselves for years to come, while I think the real benefits to come are mostly around the controller programming and software. Granularity/number of breakpoints for torque sensor output, modes like ‘emtb’ on non-Bafang motors, and the ability to adjust settings sanely for things like rider weight and style of riding, without being locked into e.g. Bafang only batteries and such - would be a pretty decent foreseeable future to me.

Interestingly the LudiV2 already has a gyro build-in, and I know some brand or another was making some fuss over an ‘angle sensor’ although I’m not sure exactly how their programming used it - am guessing it was simplistic and perhaps just boosting assistance on steep uphills or something?

Given custom controllers with a couple of GPIO ports, additional sensors can be added (or upgraded), while BLE/BT can connect to more comprehensive ‘displays’ or for tuning/adjustments, etc. Better yet, with open source firmware, there’s at least a chance to improve the same hardware’s functionality and performance over time.

One thing I am hoping for is subsequent Bafang motors keep the same mounts, at least giving a path to replacement, but also in that the form factor for controllers remains somewhat constant - PCB layout and testing is time/$-consuming already, but given the same form factor, unless there’s a truly revolutionary overhaul, it may be possible to e.g. have a single (aftermarket or open source) controller capable of working for M500/510/600/<next> which would certainly benefit us all.

I put m600 controller to m500. 1.1kW peak, still legit, still working in my daily riding.

 

[Waynemarlow]

I was primarily talking about the M510, no doubt there's an M610 on the way.

Rapid obsolescence is one of the risks when buying a non-mainstream solution, particularly of Chinese origin and particularly in a field that is undergoing a huge upsurge in both popularity and progress.

Aren’t you being a bit unkind on Bafang. The M600 has been about for nearly 4 years, there’s a good supply of parts, theres still a good supply of motors. How many major brands of EBike still retain a 4 year old design as their main product and still offer parts backup. Taking it to the extreme how old is the BBS02 motor, still available and parts are plentiful.

Sure you are going to get refinements such as the M510 but wasn’t that more to do with the M500 not being competitive with the latest Bosch / Shimano motors and to break into the main stream markets, then manufacturers such as Forestal needed to be fed with better upgraded motors.

 

[Hagbard]

Aren’t you being a bit unkind on Bafang.

Yes, possibly! However, they've missed the ball on so many occasions where they could actually have got ahead of the competition. The hardware is great, but their software offerings all feel like an afterthought, or a half completed student project.

If either they (or at this stage, we) manage to open up the software platform then I think some really great stuff will come of it. Even if it's just the simple matter of having a more ergonomic set of buttons, or the ability to use those already made by a different manufacturer.

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

Lol - as it is, a well known manufacturer (Bafang) can’t even get basic things right, or release displays and control pads actually suitable for riding. ‘Wait’ may be a loong wait, and no guarantees what they think someone wants - actually is.
Why did you build your own E22 (ok, other than for YT subs), and why not just wait for a well-known third party to just build the bike you want?

Hope you get the point… information is useful and lets people build what they want.

The Eggrider is neat, although not everyone wants an SW102 with custom firmware on it. The Giant control pad to me, is near perfection, and at least seems a much more robust solution vs the ‘dangling bits’ on the DP C240 controls.

RE: displays - people have widely differening desires there. Some want a tablet-sized display with all possible sensors being read, some want absolutely minimal. Some want integrated into the bike’s frame, others are fine with it above or below the bars. Pretty unlikely for a ‘well-known third party‘ to scratch all of those itches…

Even if EggRider does come out with an ER for CAN motors, it’s questionable as to if any additional configuration will be accessible, unless they are well beyond where the guys on ES and OpenEbike Firmware github projects are in decoding the CAN commands, which last I checked (been a few, possible more progress has been made) was more or less the one-time settings - wheel diameter and I think top speed? It’s an undertaking…at least short of building a replacement controller (like e.g. the Luna LudiV2 VESC - for BBHSD, M600 now - seems a matter of time before M620, M500 - if they decide to ever sell separately, or the Innotrace - which US buyers are locked out of due to WattWagons exclusive but inability to deliver..).

I’ll gladly take any steps <forward> which Capt, Hagbard and others seem to be making awesome progress on.

You've made your point. And rather than for me to 'defend' my rationale behind building up the E22 frameset, I'll simply say "To each is own!!".

As for your choice of wording 'moving forward', I'm reminded that some (if not many) ebike owners are reluctant to crack open a motor and perform general maintenance. Yet you seem convinced that 'everyone' will be eager to build a DIY display which 'may' involve complex wiring beyond the scope of new-comer ebike owners who 'chooses' to go with the bafang system.

I'll reserve judgement and I wish captainhightop and anyone else who wishes to 'commit' to advancing of a better display interfaces, the best of luck and pray that they succeed. But clearly 'I' (someone who has had years of experience messing around with numerous bafang motors and communication protocols), seeks to achieve an outcome which others can do by means of plug-n-play.

Whilst I've refrained from providing any information about advancements of bafang motors (beyond the conventional programming, teardown, rebuild tooling, adapting and providing sources native to one's location), I feel no need to convince others as to my resourcefulness (or my vast intricate knowledge of THE ENTIRE CATALOGUE of bafang motors including those which have yet to have surfaced.

But like I said, "To each his own!!!"

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

It does still feel like there's loads of potential to still be unlocked with these motors, and as knowledge matures (which it's currently doing at a fantastic rate) we'll see some pretty interesting things.

We will. I guarantee it

 

[rtp]

You've made your point. And rather than for me to 'defend' my rationale behind building up the E22 frameset, I'll simply say "To each is own!!".

No need to defend it, the point was simply acknowledging different users, different desires/'needs.'

As for your choice of wording 'moving forward', I'm reminded that some (if not many) ebike owners are reluctant to crack open a motor and perform general maintenance. Yet you seem convinced that 'everyone' will be eager to build a DIY display which 'may' involve complex wiring beyond the scope of new-comer ebike owners who 'chooses' to go with the bafang system.

Not sure where you're getting any of this from - I never claimed anything like 'everyone' wants to do anything DIY at all. Your assumption about using 'older displays' just wasn't on point for at least numerous of us. If the market doesn't provide what's desired by someone, DIY is always an option if someone wishes.

I'll reserve judgement and I wish captainhightop and anyone else who wishes to 'commit' to advancing of a better display interfaces, the best of luck and pray that they succeed. But clearly 'I' (someone who has had years of experience messing around with numerous bafang motors and communication protocols), seeks to achieve an outcome which others can do by means of plug-n-play.

Great - if you have a product that makes it to market, I'll be happy to consider it, if it's something I'm looking for. Plug-n-play assuming it meets the needs of someone willing to pay for it, in many cases is certainly desired by many.

Whilst I've refrained from providing any information about advancements of bafang motors (beyond the conventional programming, teardown, rebuild tooling, adapting and providing sources native to one's location), I feel no need to convince others as to my resourcefulness (or my vast intricate knowledge of THE ENTIRE CATALOGUE of bafang motors including those which have yet to have surfaced.

But like I said, "To each his own!!!"

Ok. No clue why the defensiveness - simple convo and not everyone is looking for the same thing, and surprise, forum members are adults and not everyone will want the same thing. If you've got info or an amazing new product to contribute, please do. *shrug*

I have no doubt Bafang has more in the works. They should as they have some catching up to do IMO. I'm sure many would love to hear about the 'amazing advancements' although shipping or nearly-shipping product wins out over vaporware in most markets, and while e.g. the DP C242 looks like an interesting improvement on the DP C240/241, it seems un-purchase-able at the moment, and if as I suspect it only allows 5 PAS levels if/when it becomes available, maybe it's a good fit for some but I'll wind up passing on it (I prefer 9 PAS levels; YMMV).

 

[Hagbard]

@captainhightop any update on your buttons?

My cable has now arrived, though I have to confess that I haven't even taken it out of the bag yet. Tempted to start attempting to design a low profile button/controller thingmy (I'm sure I settled on a word for this, but I've already forgotten it) in CAD for 3D printing, though I am fairly average CADer.

 

[captainhightop]

@captainhightop any update on your buttons?

My cable has now arrived, though I have to confess that I haven't even taken it out of the bag yet. Tempted to start attempting to design a low profile button/controller thingmy (I'm sure I settled on a word for this, but I've already forgotten it) in CAD for 3D printing, though I am fairly average CADer.

Waiting on a Shimano E6xxxx button set I've ordered to take apart (even though it's DI2 I figured internally at the most basic they must just be simple pushbuttons and I can rewire internally).

The task of designing working (and waterproof) low profile buttons is a bit daunting, I have to admit. The cables from AliExpress have been wired up to some standard pushbutton switches on a breadboard and all worked as expected though.

Not made any progress regarding canbus yet though, although other people on EndlessSphere appear to be working on that.

The giant button set doesn't seem available in the UK though at the moment (which I would prefer to use).

 

[Hagbard]

I've been thinking about the waterproofness this afternoon. I came to the conclusion that it's not worth spending too much time worrying about, so long as we use IP rated switches. Looking at the Giant buttons this appears to be their approach. Initially I thought the contact surfaces were rubberised, but I've now convinced myself that they are also hard plastic, which suggests that they are also relying on the waterproof rating of the switches rather than trying to build a manifold container.

I've rummaged through my parts bin and found a handlebar, dropper remote, brake lever and grip, so might start prototyping something today. The brake lever is a dia-compe from about 1992, funny how the ergonomics and clamps have evolved on these things!

 

[Waynemarlow]

What about membrane keypads guys, fully IP rated, wrap around the bars, no need for waterproof anything.

Membrane Switch Keypad Keyboard For Industrial Control 1 to 4Key Various Colors | eBay

Panel material: PC sand surface. Loop resistance: <50 ohm. Key bag height: 0.3mm. Adhesive tape on the back: white glue.

www.ebay.co.uk

 

[Hagbard]

What about membrane keypads guys, fully IP rated, wrap around the bars, no need for waterproof anything.

Membrane Switch Keypad Keyboard For Industrial Control 1 to 4Key Various Colors | eBay

Panel material: PC sand surface. Loop resistance: <50 ohm. Key bag height: 0.3mm. Adhesive tape on the back: white glue.

www.ebay.co.uk

Hahahahah I quite like those. Feels a bit like cheating though! Might order some just to see what they feel like.

 

[Waynemarlow]

Most of the industrial ones have a definitive " click " feel, they do get a bit beaten up in adverse conditions but seem to still work. It would only need a rubber outer cover to take the beatings and they would last pretty well. You can get them with a 90 degree turn which would be even better.

 

[captainhightop]

@Hagbard (and others)

Okay, quick update, I've had a bit of time today as I'm officially off work with the dreaded C19, so I've been trying to take my mind off it by messing about with the M600 drive HMI / buttonset.

- Today, I received a cheapo Shimano button-set, it has some sort of DI2 chip on it, so although the build is good, I'd have to design a little circuit board to host the same type of buttons to use the mechanical assembly (pretty easy though). It's sealed quite well on the front, but was able to prise it out using a screwdriver to break the seal which is some sort of rubbery glue. It wasn't easy to get to that point though, but I think I can probably reassemble it (if needed). (see attachments for horrific disassembly pics!). It's not a dead-end, but the 3 button DI2 switches aren't a simple fix unfortunately (still can't source the giant ones in the UK)

- I've been working on the CANBUS side of things today too, I've got couple of these (GitHub - Xinyuan-LilyGO/T-CAN485) and have connected one of them up between the 2 HIGO cables from AliExpress. Initially I found that the system would power up, but would report 0 for the battery voltage. Tried swapping CANH/CANL and removing/replacing GND wire. Finally googled what the M600 baud rate was for CAN bus and found it to be 250KBS. Now that I know I can insert a microprocessor on the CAN bus this will open up a few options. I think I'll put a webserver on the ESP/CAN board so I can decode the CAN messages (and send them), I've used this on several small work projects, so it will be fairly easy.

- Not done any further work on designing a new button-set for the DPC241.CAN, but testing on a breadboard proves it's just a simple bunch of switches so anyone can do that! I'd previously looked at the membrane switches too, but wasn't sure how good the "feel" would be on the bars (as an aside some people are using these on road bikes already for the shimano gear switching with DIx - which means some of the shimano stuff is simple buttons, just not the one I've got)

- I'm also in the process of rebuilding an Exposure Flex e-bike Light I fried by by dumping 12V at 5A (from a big buck converter) into it without current limiting (oops), this is kind of relevant as, the remote driver board I'm designing will have an ESP32 to generate a PWM signal to dim the lights via the new current limited DC/DC run off the bike battery. It might make sense if I can use the CAN bus connection to get the speed sensor data to detect movement rather than the accelerometer that I was originally planning on using. I've actually got a usable breadboarded circuit for this project, but there are a few outstanding issues (powering the microprocessor for one), I haven't added CAN bus to this one yet though as it's just a standard ESP32.



So basically I'm working on 3 different things at once and some are closer than others, I'm thinking I need to start putting it all on my github now or it's going to get out of control. Not sure how I version control PCB designs though other than just dumping the KICAD project files into the repo though!

I'm also thinking that I can merge the HMI and the lighting project too if I can get the CAN working on a standard ESP32. It needs to be small enough to go in the frame with the DCDC though so the LILYGO board is a not viable as it's huge.

All good fun though :-D

 

[Waynemarlow]

Captainhightop, from Endless Sphere are you aware that the Canbus reader can be connected into the brake sensor connector and of the commands that already have been diagnosed so far ?

Bafang M500/M600 thread

Since this seems to be an interesting motor, why not have a separate topic for it? I'll start with three quotes I have found about the motor on this forum, feel free to add more information that you can find. Over the last couple of days I had heard that there had been reports of the M600...

endless-sphere.com

Bafang_M500_M600/CANBUS at main · OpenSourceEBike/Bafang_M500_M600

Contribute to OpenSourceEBike/Bafang_M500_M600 development by creating an account on GitHub.

github.com

 

[captainhightop]

Captainhightop, from Endless Sphere are you aware that the Canbus reader can be connected into the brake sensor connector and of the commands that already have been diagnosed so far ?

Bafang M500/M600 thread

Since this seems to be an interesting motor, why not have a separate topic for it? I'll start with three quotes I have found about the motor on this forum, feel free to add more information that you can find. Over the last couple of days I had heard that there had been reports of the M600...

endless-sphere.com

Bafang_M500_M600/CANBUS at main · OpenSourceEBike/Bafang_M500_M600

Contribute to OpenSourceEBike/Bafang_M500_M600 development by creating an account on GitHub.

github.com

I didn't know about the brake sensor canbus connection, that's new to me.

The other stuff, yeah I've already cloned the repo and going to try and get my ESP32 with the built-in can tranceivers to decode and possibly encode packets.

I wonder why it also has canbus on the brake sensor connection, maybe for when they add canbus to the battery dock (which I hope they don't!). Could be good for me though as it gives me a way to add more stuff if I want to ;-)

 

[Waynemarlow]

A simple module connected into the spare brake connector we don’t use, transmitting all the ANT data our Garmin or phone can read would seem a pretty handy bit of kit.

The Garmin Edge handlebar keypad then comes into play.

Garmin Edge Cycling GPS handlebar remote for eBike

Make your eBike work for you with the help of this rugged, compact and lightweight remote control It's never been easier to change the performance level of your bike Simply select 1 of the 3 buttons on the circular top face to raise or lower the current assistance level, scroll through your Edge...

www.bikeparts.co.uk

 

[djol]

@Hagbard and @captainhightop another very neat & minimalist button option could be to use Cell Cycling's NXS wireless 3-button 'shifty buttons', currently on pre-order for use with their new wireless shifting system:

Shifty Buttons – NXS Wireless

www.nxswireless.com

Looks very neat and slick - and if you were using their electronic shifting system on the right (3-buttons, 2 for shifting, 1 for dropper!), you'd have nice symmetry with the motor-control buttons on the left. (I've (pre)ordered an extra button-set myself for this reason.)

 

[Puschtrale]

No need to defend it, the point was simply acknowledging different users, different desires/'needs.'


Not sure where you're getting any of this from - I never claimed anything like 'everyone' wants to do anything DIY at all. Your assumption about using 'older displays' just wasn't on point for at least numerous of us. If the market doesn't provide what's desired by someone, DIY is always an option if someone wishes.



Great - if you have a product that makes it to market, I'll be happy to consider it, if it's something I'm looking for. Plug-n-play assuming it meets the needs of someone willing to pay for it, in many cases is certainly desired by many.



Ok. No clue why the defensiveness - simple convo and not everyone is looking for the same thing, and surprise, forum members are adults and not everyone will want the same thing. If you've got info or an amazing new product to contribute, please do. *shrug*

I have no doubt Bafang has more in the works. They should as they have some catching up to do IMO. I'm sure many would love to hear about the 'amazing advancements' although shipping or nearly-shipping product wins out over vaporware in most markets, and while e.g. the DP C242 looks like an interesting improvement on the DP C240/241, it seems un-purchase-able at the moment, and if as I suspect it only allows 5 PAS levels if/when it becomes available, maybe it's a good fit for some but I'll wind up passing on it (I prefer 9 PAS levels; YMMV).

Hi, DP C242 will not enter in pass production. The older DP C240/241 will be replaced by the DP C244/245. That is was a bafang sales person told me when asking for delivery times of the DP C242.

 

[Erik]

Hi guys! Would anyone send me credentials to besst? well thank you

 

[captainhightop]

Hi guys! Would anyone send me credentials to besst? well thank you

Follow the instructions in the linked post, you run use the hosts file to redirect to a local server running in python to avoid needing valid credentials. Dealers aren't keen on giving out credentials it seems:

Bafang M500/M600 thread

Since this seems to be an interesting motor, why not have a separate topic for it? I'll start with three quotes I have found about the motor on this forum, feel free to add more information that you can find. Over the last couple of days I had heard that there had been reports of the M600...

endless-sphere.com

 

[Erik]

Thank you very much

 

[RyeNiel]

Hi. Anybody here experienced a bafang m600 motor the pedal assist randomly cuts off without error? i dont think the problem is with the speed sensor or the magnet since i tried installing another m600 motor on the same bike , it has no problem... any advice or help is appreciated. thanks

 

[krokan]

@Kyokushin Is it this one? CRX10NC3617i142017.7-28-2230-20200911.bin at Bafang_M500_M600/Firmwares/Official/Motor/m500 at main · OpenSourceEBike/Bafang_M500_M600

Hi,
@OneCosmic are you using this firmware? Did it help to increase the power? How is the battery consumption if you compare it with the stock?
Are there any problems? I'm currently using the stock firmware ( CRX10NC3615i142017.2 - 640w) so I would like to know if it worth it to upgrade it?? Or did you find any better firmware? Is there a way how to backup my CRX10NC3615i142017.2 ??
Thank you for any info.

 

[Hondy]

Hi,
@OneCosmic are you using this firmware? Did it help to increase the power? How is the battery consumption if you compare it with the stock?
Are there any problems? I'm currently using the stock firmware ( CRX10NC3615i142017.2 - 640w) so I would like to know if it worth it to upgrade it?? Or did you find any better firmware? Is there a way how to backup my CRX10NC3615i142017.2 ??
Thank you for any info.

Hello ....still is the best

 

[captainhightop]

FYI:
Replacement M600 controllers available via Green E-Bike store via aliexpress:

129.24￡ 20% OFF|36V 43V 48V Bafang M600/G521 Controller of Torque Motor| | - AliExpress

If like me you've killed your controller board, they actually have some in stock!

 

[rtp]

Just saw a new-to-me display. Besides the fact it claims compatibility with pretty much <every Bafang motor>, doesn't look terrible. Anyone try one on M500/600? Named DZ41 seemingly.. ?

Page Not Found - Aliexpress.com

 

[Dado]

Hello builders.

I have designed and coded small, portable and simple K1 CAN Monitor & Speed Unlocker - no need computer. Works ONLY with Bafang motors with CAN bus (green connector to display with "house" shape 5 pin connector).

Idea was to monitor motor temperature, then I have added also other monitor parameters: Speed, Energy Consumption per km, Voltage, Current, Power, Used Energy over coulomb counter (SOC should be more accurate), Temperature of motor and controller. Also can setup max assistance speed (and it will stay in motor also after disconnecting K1 CAN Monitor , wheel size and circumference.

If you interested send an email to [email protected], upon demand I decide if to build few pieces by hand. Specify which country you want to ship, can be build in a month.
Price: 120 Eur + shipping to EU 6 Eur

K1 CAN Monitor is determined for testing purpose only. One disadvantage - small buttons - you can get used to it.
ttps://youtu.be/6z3TzEqNWsQ

 

[Dado]

Hello guys.

Kyokushin gave me an idea to modify this K1 Monitor a bit, to make it as automatic speed limiter.
Function would be like this:

• When powered on it will go with 25 or 32 km/h and throttle wont be working (or can be set).
• When you put magnet keychain near to the case, it will change to predefined speed (or could cycle between few) and activate throttle. (I dont find a hidden button as a good option as then it is not hidden , magnet should work also over aluminium when you install into frame and glue it to some place)
• Will be small as adafruit board offers. 2 connectors to throttle, 2 connectors to CAN bus, no switch, cca: 68x26x18mm
• Problem will be with waterproofing, if somebody wants to have on outside. Then some silicon job needs to be done, I can try to use gasket maker under top cover.

If somebody interested in such a device write me on [email protected]
Can be developed in a month. And name could be: K1 BlackBox or propose some name.

 

[Kyokushin]

Hello guys.

Kyokushin gave me an idea to modify this K1 Monitor a bit, to make it as automatic speed limiter.
Function would be like this:

• When powered on it will go with 25 or 32 km/h and throttle wont be working (or can be set).
• When you put magnet keychain near to the case, it will change to predefined speed (or could cycle between few) and activate throttle. (I dont find a hidden button as a good option as then it is not hidden , magnet should work also over aluminium when you install into frame and glue it to some place)
• Will be small as adafruit board offers. 2 connectors to throttle, 2 connectors to CAN bus, no switch, cca: 68x26x18mm
• Problem will be with waterproofing, if somebody wants to have on outside. Then some silicon job needs to be done, I can try to use gasket maker under top cover.

If somebody interested in such a device write me on [email protected]
Can be developed in a month. And name could be: K1 BlackBox or propose some name.

That would be great - even without a display, just as small 'box' plugged in the cables. Waterproofing is not a big deal i think, we can handle that I would be more than happy to buy new version.