Assembly frame LightCarbon LCE971 bafang M510 (By Denver)

[Sayonara]

Okay, I understand a little better now, and you do have some experience in the world of cycling, so your personal reasoning seems sound to me. It's true that if having a throttle is essential for you, the M560 seems like a better choice.

And regarding the battery for your usage, I think you're right to opt for a larger battery.

Yes, perhaps I got a bit carried away with 28 kg, but what I meant by that is that it won't be feather-light. When I mentioned this weight, it's because in my mind, it went like this:

My bike 23kg
Difference between LCE971 and E82 frame +500g?
Motor +400g
Battery +800g
FOX 38 +300g
Float X2 +200g
DH tire + 700g
Panzer + 220g
Sealant + 200g
Total: 26.3kg
And for this weight, it's still concerning my bike, which has been optimized for weight, with all titanium screws, lightweight axles, custom cables, titanium saddle, carbon wheels, carbon handlebars... That's why I said around 28 kg.

As for routing cables through the headset, if it's done properly by the person doing the assembly, it's very neat and functional. I saw someone on the threads
E82 Dengfu frame now available
complaining that turning the handlebars changed gears, but that's simply because they didn't route the cables correctly.

And yes, Camelback (the EVOC bags are fantastic), I also use it very often. I sometimes use a water bottle, but only for short rides.

Thanks for the link; I wasn't aware that there was good progress on the M560. I'll keep an eye on that; it interests me. It might be worth being patient and waiting for the release of this motor.

I can't provide feedback on the new Charger 3 charger regarding the forks, but I do have the Super Deluxe Ultimate

So I've only ridden 150km with this shock, and for now, I can say it does its job. I'm still in the tuning phase, but from what I can tell, it seems to have good progression with good sensitivity at the beginning of the stroke. You have to consider the frame's kinematics as well. So there might still be a slight difference in behavior depending on the frame and especially the settings.

And it's true that RockShox is much easier to use than Fox... When I look at the settings on my Fox 36, it's like a maze .

View attachment 138718

And based on what you're describing about your riding style, I'm not sure if you really need a Zeb. I think a Lyrik could suit you; however, if you go for an E82 with 170mm of rear travel, you won't be able to have 150mm or 160mm upfront. You'll need a longer yoke and reduce the rear travel. But again, based on how you describe your riding style, I don't think it would be a problem whether you're at 150 or 160mm of travel.

Yeah throttle is mandatory for my enjoyment as I see it. But I'm not sure yet if I should choose m560 500w or 750w if only downside of 750w is noise then I see no reason to not choose it.

I think smaller battery could be fine but the bigger one 100% sure will. That's basically my reasoning. As well as that as battery ages it loses capacity.

Yeah those weights make sense. But what is Panzer?

Yeah I can see the headset cableling working but if you get it done perfectly the only(?) benefit is cleaner cockpit look. Alot for risks and work just to achieve that. Especially in my use when I have to remove the battery everytime I'm not riding it (during work day and general storage in my appartment with other neighbors). That's why I prefer the holes near headset.

Yeah, I don't see benefit for me in Fox's more complicated settings since I don't have the skills to enjoy those features and even if I did they offer no benefit to me in my riding where as simpler self maintenance is a massive bonus and saves alot of money in a long run.

Yes, I agree. 150/150 travel would most likely work for me but if my hobby continues to progress like it has I fear I will soon regret of not getting the 170 Zeb. On top of that the E82 has softer headtube angle and the bigger battery. So basically in my current opinion the E82 is more future proof for my use even if not ideal for current use. If the LCE971 had possibility for bigger battery I think I would choose it. Though saving about 1,5kg with that frame and smaller battery is very tempting

Could you explain why yoke wears shock out faster? Does the force during travel of the shock come weighted on one side and that wears the shock out faster than normally?

Edit: I checked my battery and it's 840wh. 48v 17,5Ah. The LCE971 battery is 720Wh. 120wh less than my current battery and E82 battery is 1008Wh.

 

[Denver]

That’s great work. Thank you. Mine painted blue.

View attachment 138723 View attachment 138724

Thank you so much for accepting my request.
So I'm reposting my comment as well .

Wow, it looks great in blue !
Are you happy with this bike ?

 

[Denver]

Yeah throttle is mandatory for my enjoyment as I see it. But I'm not sure yet if I should choose m560 500w or 750w if only downside of 750w is noise then I see no reason to not choose it.

I think smaller battery could be fine but the bigger one 100% sure will. That's basically my reasoning. As well as that as battery ages it loses capacity.

Yeah those weights make sense. But what is Panzer?

Yeah I can see the headset cableling working but if you get it done perfectly the only(?) benefit is cleaner cockpit look. Alot for risks and work just to achieve that. Especially in my use when I have to remove the battery everytime I'm not riding it (during work day and general storage in my appartment with other neighbors). That's why I prefer the holes near headset.

Yeah, I don't see benefit for me in Fox's more complicated settings since I don't have the skills to enjoy those features and even if I did they offer no benefit to me in my riding where as simpler self maintenance is a massive bonus and saves alot of money in a long run.

Yes, I agree. 150/150 travel would most likely work for me but if my hobby continues to progress like it has I fear I will soon regret of not getting the 170 Zeb. On top of that the E82 has softer headtube angle and the bigger battery. So basically in my current opinion the E82 is more future proof for my use even if not ideal for current use. If the LCE971 had possibility for bigger battery I think I would choose it. Though saving about 1,5kg with that frame and smaller battery is very tempting

Could you explain why yoke wears shock out faster? Does the force during travel of the shock come weighted on one side and that wears the shock out faster than normally?

Edit: I checked my battery and it's 840wh. 48v 17,5Ah. The LCE971 battery is 720Wh. 120wh less than my current battery and E82 battery is 1008Wh.

Indeed, batteries lose capacity as they age.
If you'd like an example, I can provide you with the capacity loss of the battery (670wh) in my Frey AM1000 EX.
Currently, the bike has reached 2478 km over 1.5 years.
The last capacity test I conducted showed 93% out of the 100% measured when the battery had 7km.

100% 620.9wh / 100 = 6.209
575.9wh /6.209 = 92.75% Capacity

I know that this loss has been moderate due to my usage and the conditioning of the battery when I wasn't using the bike. It's clear that if I had used the motor at its full power all the time, I would have experienced a capacity loss that I think would have exceeded 10%.

Panzer protections are inserts placed inside the tires to prevent pinch flats and limit rim destruction during excessively harsh impacts. They also provide additional lateral support, allowing for slightly lower tire pressure and better traction on rough terrain.

PANZER ENDURO – PANZER

ridepanzer.com

And you are somewhat right about the cable routing through the headset. The advantage is mainly aesthetic...

I think if you really need a large battery, the E82 is a good candidate. Although the geometry is very similar to the LCE971, I find it hard to compare with the LCE971 because I can't find any suspension simulation diagrams like LightCarbon does, and that's a real shame...

Regarding the "Yoke," the problem is very pronounced when a shock with a trunnion mount is attached to the frame with a yoke; this creates too much lateral stiffness, so there's not enough play, which affects the shock. There's also the issue that the yoke increases the leverage arm at the plunger, increasing stress on the shock.

In the end, we can say that a yoke leads to more regular maintenance intervals, more frequent repairs, and premature shock wear.

Here's a video from Vorsprung that talks about it more precisely ;

 

[Sayonara]

Indeed, batteries lose capacity as they age.
If you'd like an example, I can provide you with the capacity loss of the battery (670wh) in my Frey AM1000 EX.
Currently, the bike has reached 2478 km over 1.5 years.
The last capacity test I conducted showed 93% out of the 100% measured when the battery had 7km.

View attachment 138769 View attachment 138770

100% 620.9wh / 100 = 6.209
575.9wh /6.209 = 92.75% Capacity

I know that this loss has been moderate due to my usage and the conditioning of the battery when I wasn't using the bike. It's clear that if I had used the motor at its full power all the time, I would have experienced a capacity loss that I think would have exceeded 10%.

Panzer protections are inserts placed inside the tires to prevent pinch flats and limit rim destruction during excessively harsh impacts. They also provide additional lateral support, allowing for slightly lower tire pressure and better traction on rough terrain.

PANZER ENDURO – PANZER

ridepanzer.com

And you are somewhat right about the cable routing through the headset. The advantage is mainly aesthetic...

I think if you really need a large battery, the E82 is a good candidate. Although the geometry is very similar to the LCE971, I find it hard to compare with the LCE971 because I can't find any suspension simulation diagrams like LightCarbon does, and that's a real shame...

Regarding the "Yoke," the problem is very pronounced when a shock with a trunnion mount is attached to the frame with a yoke; this creates too much lateral stiffness, so there's not enough play, which affects the shock. There's also the issue that the yoke increases the leverage arm at the plunger, increasing stress on the shock.

In the end, we can say that a yoke leads to more regular maintenance intervals, more frequent repairs, and premature shock wear.

Here's a video from Vorsprung that talks about it more precisely ;

Thanks for the battery info! Based on that I'm leaning more towards the E82.

Ahh Panzer is a tyre insert like crush core. I just hadn't heard that brand before. I've been riding with tubes with zero punctures so far so I have not found the need to test out tubeless setup.

I think someone posted some suspension graphs in the E82 thread?
This comment has them in attachement, not sure if there are more. Post in thread 'E82 Dengfu frame now available' E82 Dengfu frame now available

Is the problem with trunnion shocks only? Because I think E82 takes normal shock and not trunnion.

If only I had personal experience about "proper" ebike motor similar to m560. That way I would know if the smaller battery would be okey... because if it is then the saved weight would be huge benefit on top of arguably better suspension design.

 

[Denver]

Great review about this frame, awesome job to improve this bike.
I agree with you Denver on lot off things.
Yoke is not the right geometry part for enduro bike, when you discuss with suspension mechanic guy he said it is the worst idea on MTB
Secondly, I prefer to play with my bike on trail and choose the best line instead to have a big travel on my suspension and go strait

Merci
Yes, I also find it preferable to have a bike that is more agile due to its geometry and reduced travel rather than a large enduro bike. it's so more fun

 

[Sayonara]

@Denver thoughts on the E82's suspension graphs?

 

[Denver]

@Denver des réflexions sur les graphiques de suspension du E82 ?

Yes, I can tell you what I think about it.

If we look at the E82's geometry in a general aspect and compare it to that of the LCE971, we can say that the E82's geometry is slightly more oriented towards enduro.

The rider's positioning is slightly more rearward, which can be an advantage for downhill riding.

The head angle is also more enduro-oriented, at 64° compared to 64.5° for the LCE971. But be careful , just because the angle is 64° doesn't mean it's better than 64.5°. The entire geometry and rear suspension kinematics must be taken into account. The best way to determine how a frame behaves is through real-world testing.

The bottom bracket height relative to the ground is 10 mm higher than that of the LCE971. However, the motor position is different. Therefore, the rider's center of gravity is higher for the E82, resulting in less stability. On the other hand, this frame will be less prone to hitting obstacles at the motor level, so it will have better obstacle clearance. Is this a good compromise? Honestly, I'm not sure. The majority of frames currently available are more similar to the LCE971 than the E82.

As for the E82's rear chainstay length (455mm), it's 5 mm shorter than the LCE971's (460mm). This difference is minimal, and I'm not sure if it would be noticeable on the frame. Nevertheless, I do have a preference for shorter chainstays, and if it were up to me, I would opt for a chainstay length of 450mm (for size "M"). Personally, I wouldn't go below 445mm for an e-bike. The Scor 4060, for example, has a very short chainstay length (436mm), making it very playful but less stable and challenging on climbs as it tends to lift quickly. I think 436mm is too extreme for a chainstay length.

You might be wondering what I think about the frame's suspension kinematics. However, it's going to be difficult to answer that question, and I'll tell you why. This is also one of the reasons why I didn't choose Dengfu and opted for LightCarbon because their "Spirit" seems better to me.

I did find the rear suspension simulation graphs (thank you Sayonara ) , but I'm having trouble analyzing them.

There are several inconsistencies that prevent a proper understanding of these graphs.

Data such as fork length and offset are missing. Therefore, it's impossible to determine the fork's trail (which is interesting and important for understanding part of the bike's behavior).
.

Typically, if a frame is designed with 150mm/150mm of travel, it's acceptable to increase the front travel by 10mm because it minimally affects the overall bike behavior and won't be negative; it will simply be different (more stable). However, going beyond 10mm more (e.g., 150mm/170mm), the geometry changes significantly, and the behavior changes too much, which can be counterproductive.

Additionally, they indicate 170mm of rear travel for sale.

However, the graphs were created with a 55mm shock, resulting in a total travel of 150mm (according to the graphs).

It's also worth noting the use of "E11" instead of "E82" in the graphs, which naturally raises the question of whether these graphs correspond to this frame.

If Dengfu is listening, I would appreciate it if they could provide detailed information on the graph below.

From my analysis, these are measurements taken with the bike at a 20% rear sag and 0% front sag. However, if the front fork sag is at 0%, we can infer that a 560mm fork length corresponds to a 29" fork with 150mm of travel. So, you might say that it's an "indicative" graph, but it's available in the "E82 pdf" document, and if this information is incorrect, it shouldn't be in that document.

So, to summarize: It's a frame oriented towards enduro (due to its geometry), sold with 170mm of rear travel, and therefore (logically) 170mm at the front too. But according to the graphs, it was designed and dimensioned for 150mm rear and 150mm front travel.

For my part, I'm not sure where I stand on this... What I mean is that if you buy this frame for its 170mm of travel, you won't be able to know exactly how the bike behaves and its exact geometry.

Additionally, although it's a detail, it seems odd to me to advertise an enduro bike with a trail shock (RockShox Deluxe) and "trail" tires (Maxxis Rekon). By the way, these tires are a disaster, so don't buy them.
At some point, you have to stand by your decisions, and if you're making an enduro bike, you need to equip it accordingly, even if the components are expensive... And if the company doesn't have the means to equip a frame with enduro components to take promotional photos, they should wait for a buyer to purchase the frame and take photos for them to use on the website.

I'd also like to address the "Yoke."

The best way to have the most problems is: "Yoke" + "trunnion" shock. Here, there's no "trunnion", which is already a good point. However, there are three sizes of "yoke" (90mm, 70mm, 50mm), and the longer the "yoke", the greater the leverage on the shock stroke. If you're really using your bike for what it's meant for (enduro), I wouldn't bet on your shock's longevity... Especially if you're using a "trail" shock.

Here, the shock absorber shows scratches (probably due to lack of maintenance).
Having a yoke exacerbates this phenomenon if:

Of course, other problems arise from it. It's one among others...
So with a "yoke", you need to be diligent about maintenance intervals (even considering more frequent servicing) to try to limit this phenomenon.

So, as you can see, we can't rely on the graph because it doesn't accurately represent what's being sold. If you use a 45mm shock with a 90mm "yoke" (what is that, 140mm of travel?), you won't have the same kinematics as with a 50mm "yoke" and a 60mm shock.

Ultimately, if you buy this frame, you won't know (at the moment) what you're buying.

You may have noticed that I pay particular attention to what a manufacturer gives us as information, and it's not for nothing that I chose LightCarbon over Dengfu.

How do you expect to know what you're buying if they themselves don't even know what they're selling...

By the way, Toray T800 or T700?

You have 4 hours...

 

[Sayonara]

@Denver Wow.. Thank you for taking the time and explaining your thoughts! I really appreciate it! I'm learning so much!

You are making really good points! One reason for these mistakes could be that the E82 has not yet been officially launched. For example you can't see the frame in their own website. And I think the E11 name on the graph might be there if they used "E11" as a "code name" because I think the E82 is supposed to be modern version of their popular E10. Maybe they will get everything in order when they officially release the frame. I'm not saying this is the reason I'm just giving them the benefit of the doubt. After all these graphs and details are from multiple different sources and people. But I have to say even if that could be the case that still does not explain the mixed or missing information from graphs or the yoke situation.

I've been running Continental Kryptotal Fr+Re with enduro casing. These tires feel insanely good! No plans to change unless someone strongly recommends something else. So far really happy with them though.

I think you made me forget about E82 and go with LCE971 I just have to think if I'm okey with 720Wh battery. And if I go with that I hope I can find a good deal on the fork and shock I was planning to get

However... What did you mean with "You have 4 hours..."?

 

[Denver]

@Denver Wow.. Thank you for taking the time and explaining your thoughts! I really appreciate it! I'm learning so much!

You are making really good points! One reason for these mistakes could be that the E82 has not yet been officially launched. For example you can't see the frame in their own website. And I think the E11 name on the graph might be there if they used "E11" as a "code name" because I think the E82 is supposed to be modern version of their popular E10. Maybe they will get everything in order when they officially release the frame. I'm not saying this is the reason I'm just giving them the benefit of the doubt. After all these graphs and details are from multiple different sources and people. But I have to say even if that could be the case that still does not explain the mixed or missing information from graphs or the yoke situation.

I've been running Continental Kryptotal Fr+Re with enduro casing. These tires feel insanely good! No plans to change unless someone strongly recommends something else. So far really happy with them though.

I think you made me forget about E82 and go with LCE971 I just have to think if I'm okey with 720Wh battery. And if I go with that I hope I can find a good deal on the fork and shock I was planning to get

However... What did you mean with "You have 4 hours..."?

You might not be wrong with your observation. It's true that it's not yet available on their own website, but what does that mean?
Do they have prototypes and want to liquidate them under a different name like E82 to avoid tarnishing the E11 when it's finalized?

As for the graphs, it's not the only model where data is missing. When I had a quick look at their official website, I already noticed that.

And maybe we should forget about the E82 and wait for the E11.

In which case, if you choose the LCE971, the only solution that seems possible for you if the capacity isn't large enough is to have an external battery that attaches in place of the bottle cage.
However, that would be a "DIY" battery.

And when I said "you have 4 hours,"

It's a kind of joke, as if it were a very complex problem to solve and we only had 4 hours to find the solution.
(I guess my joke doesn't work in English)

 

[Sayonara]

@Denver I think there is a 0,1% chance that I would want a battery extender on my bike maybe it works but I'm not familiar with it haha though now that you explained it, it does make sense now

Oh! And I was meant to ask! How tall are you? I'm 178cm so I'm right in the middle of size M and L for the LCE971. Wondering what's your suggestion for frame size for me?

Ps. I sent an email to Jim @lightcarbon to ask about their stock and possible shipping times Also noticed GreenBikeKit.com is advertising for having a new silent 2024 model of m560 750w

Bafang M560 /G5300 motor kit 48V 500W-Greenbikekit.com BBS, ebike batteries, Bafang M620, Bafang M600, Bafang M500, Bafang M510, KT controller with display-GreenBikeKit.com

Bafang M560 /G5300 motor kit 48V 500W with light weight and high speed.

www.greenbikekit.com

 

[Denver]

@Denver I think there is a 0,1% chance that I would want a battery extender on my bike maybe it works but I'm not familiar with it haha though now that you explained it, it does make sense now

Oh! And I was meant to ask! How tall are you? I'm 178cm so I'm right in the middle of size M and L for the LCE971. Wondering what's your suggestion for frame size for me?

Ps. I sent an email to Jim @lightcarbon to ask about their stock and possible shipping times Also noticed GreenBikeKit.com is advertising for having a new silent 2024 model of m560 750w

Bafang M560 /G5300 motor kit 48V 500W-Greenbikekit.com BBS, ebike batteries, Bafang M620, Bafang M600, Bafang M500, Bafang M510, KT controller with display-GreenBikeKit.com

Bafang M560 /G5300 motor kit 48V 500W with light weight and high speed.

www.greenbikekit.com

Let's say the external battery would be interesting if you lack autonomy 2/3 of the time out of 10 outings. That is, 70% / 80% of the time you don't need it. However, if it's the opposite scenario, it may not be very wise to consider this option.

As for the frame size:
Even though there are guidelines, the choice of frame size remains somewhat personal. Some people prefer a slightly smaller frame for more maneuverability and a playful spirit, while others prioritize a frame that feels more secure and stable.

I'm 1.72m tall, and on the LCE971 (size "M"), I feel stable (so it's a size that feels secure for me).

Personally, I feel comfortable on a size "M," and I know a size "L" is too big for me. A size "S" would clearly be more playful.

Since the LCE971 has a contemporary geometry, you can easily compare it with other brands by visiting their websites (for example: Canyon, Specialized, Trek, Scott...) and see what frame sizes they recommend based on your height.

It's hard to give you the right size because you, like me, are between two sizes (me between "S" and "M" and you between "M" and "L"). The best solution if you don't want to make a mistake is to visit a bike shop and ask to try out a size "M" and a size "L" with a similar geometry to the LCE971.

Also, don't forget that leg and arm length can also play a role in choosing a frame size. On the Specialized website, you can enter all your measurements, and they will give you the most suitable frame based on your size.

Well, I guess I was wrong to think that this motor wouldn't see the light of day... Maybe it's shaping up to be better than the 500W version.

 

[Sayonara]

@Denver Are you able to check your chainring nuts? I found these that are supposed to be the bolts for the bafang. bafang central crank kit bbs01 and bbs02 chainring adapter black bolts-Greenbikekit.com BBS, ebike batteries, Bafang M620, Bafang M600, Bafang M500, Bafang M510, KT controller with display-GreenBikeKit.com

But when I search from aliexpress they typically list them with two options. 6,5mm and 8,5mm. Wondering which ones fit the bafang. Some pics from aliexpress.

Edit: Oh and I needed to ask.. do you think it is possible for me to get all my cables to fit those headset slots? After all I'm not going with axs derailer or dropper post. On top of that I will have a thumb throttle as well. sounds like a thight fit..

Oh and do I need the G520A motor hanger as well or does the frame take the motor without it? $70 from greenbikekit if it's needed.