@Specialized Rider Care : Not sure if this has been discussed in the past, but is there any reason to restrict the levels of assistance to 3 only and to allow only 5% changes for setting the assistance level?
Specialized Mission Control App v2.x Now Available
- Thread starter Geoff
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- Jul 12, 2018
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If by levels of assistance you mean the support modes (Eco, Trail, Turbo), then YES our product team has found those (from their market research) to represent the best balance between simplicity and usability. With the newest Levo you can also ride with no support, i.e. OFF.
With respect to the 5% changes, would you advocate for finer adjustment than that? If YES, is that in one particular support mode?
Thanks for the quick reply. Especially for the Eco mode in combination with lower assistance (5%, 10%, 15%) I would like to have finer adjustments. From 5% to 10% the motor assistance basically doubles, from 10% to 15% the increase is 50%. I would need this for longer rides (more than 50 km and more than 2000 hm) with one battery.
By the way, the flexibility to adjust the assistance levels was one of the main reasons why I bought a Levo. I can have a trail bike with a different setup or do more XC tours with a setup described above. Additionally I can change for XC to 29ers, too.
- Jul 12, 2018
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Understood. No promises but will share this with our product teams, seems like a fair request.
VaseLEVO
New Member
By OFF mode do you mean have battery on so you can get stats but the battery provide no assistance?
Would love to have a way to easily activate something similar to the old Race mode I have heard about. This would be immensely helpful to ride in the city and get away from idiot aggressive drivers in the street. If its dangerous to some, just have a way to toggle in the app if its available or not, and just default it to off. This way if you want it, you can explicitly enable it so when you want to use it you can easily switch into it. Its just software and easy thing to do.
Would love to have a way to easily activate something similar to the old Race mode I have heard about. This would be immensely helpful to ride in the city and get away from idiot aggressive drivers in the street. If its dangerous to some, just have a way to toggle in the app if its available or not, and just default it to off. This way if you want it, you can explicitly enable it so when you want to use it you can easily switch into it. Its just software and easy thing to do.
Mcharza
E*POWAH BOSS
Ride data is okay for me and very clear.
Bike technical data. You still collect data without a user permission. It's fine, if ask "Do you want....".
Like in computer business, if something goes wrong, user have always possibility to send log data to the manufacturer.
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- Jul 12, 2018
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Genuinely sorry you feel that way. I will make sure that this is brought to the attention of our product team - however I'd also point out that we don't do anything without your permission. It is clearly explained in our privacy policy - I'll admit most of us click "I agree" without really checking what is in those policies but it is there.
As to why we do it - most digital products are connected to the cloud and send back user data. In fact, all Tesla vehicles – whether or not they are Autopilot enabled – send data directly to the cloud. A problem with the engine operation meaning that components were occasionally overheating was diagnosed in 2014 by monitoring this data and every vehicle was automatically “repaired” by software patch thanks to this. Specialized had a motor overheating issue with our first Levo bikes that took us longer than we'd have liked to solve because of the absence of historical data - when riders took them back to the shops they had cooled down and "fixed" themselves. So we improved our error-state collection with the new app & bikes - but our motivation is to be better at supporting you rather than being the warranty police.
Many riders are commenting that the new Levo is the most natural eBike they've ridden - we used Mission Control user & bike data to get that insight and build it into a better production bike. I'm hopeful that the majority believe we did the right thing.
Mcharza
E*POWAH BOSS
Thanks for your fast reply.
All you wrote was probably right, but you're missing the point.
If I don't agree, I think the app do not work, am I right?
So it is probably against the EU's privacy policy.
And you have told, that the old app stop working sometimes in October or November.
Hannes_3000
Member
I would also love to have the possibility to do finer adjustments (1% steps), especially in ECO, but it wouldn't do any harm in the other modes either
I'm usually riding with two other Levo drivers who both have a different fitness level. With the 5% steps it's kinda difficult to bring everybody to the same level...
Another problem I have found tonight is the ability to connect to the mission control app whilst charging! This is useful to see the actual battery charge and like in the old app too see a estimated time left before charged! Is this just my Kenevo/mission control or has anyone else had this problem?
@Specialized Rider Care Thanks for the posts it’s nice to know we are being listened too!
@Specialized Rider Care Thanks for the posts it’s nice to know we are being listened too!
- Jul 12, 2018
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Will check this out for you. Can you give me some time to investigate?
No, users accept our privacy policy during the app registration process. However I do understand your point more clearly and will do my best to help. Just as a point of note though, I don't believe our privacy policy has changed since the previous app was launched.
VaseLEVO
New Member
Thank you Specialized. This is actually constructive.
If I may suggest, it is better to have a page that asks if you would like to share technical data and allow opt out. This way you can still use the app and not share data.
Its very easy to do and will earn you a lot of good will. As I said my huge draw to the Levo was not only fact I had a specialized road bike, but the ability to tweak it with MC as advertised by you. Well it didn't hurt it was the best looking bike of the bunch I tested, but having the app is icing on the cake. If a separate page was there on set up that asks permission and outlines the intent, it would be that much better.
And please fix the bugs. You have fields that won't save still. Better to disable what you know doesn't work. Users get frustrated entering all this info then to have it not save or try to link to apps and it doesn't work. IMHO the testing was completely lacking.
If I may suggest, it is better to have a page that asks if you would like to share technical data and allow opt out. This way you can still use the app and not share data.
Its very easy to do and will earn you a lot of good will. As I said my huge draw to the Levo was not only fact I had a specialized road bike, but the ability to tweak it with MC as advertised by you. Well it didn't hurt it was the best looking bike of the bunch I tested, but having the app is icing on the cake. If a separate page was there on set up that asks permission and outlines the intent, it would be that much better.
And please fix the bugs. You have fields that won't save still. Better to disable what you know doesn't work. Users get frustrated entering all this info then to have it not save or try to link to apps and it doesn't work. IMHO the testing was completely lacking.
- Jul 12, 2018
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Sorry about this, it's a known issue and will be fixed in our next app release. (not related to privacy)
Swissrob
Well-known member
Specialized, what is the situation if we want to continue with the old app, will it still work but not get any updates or will it cease to function altogether in November/December?
Mcharza
E*POWAH BOSS
Thank you for you quick answers, I really appreciate it
Hi, looking for some advice on settings. I've got a 2018 comp carbon with uptodate battery and motor firmware, so I'm using the new app.
In turbo I'm 100 assistance 100 peak power. From my understanding the more the rider inputs the more you get from the motor.
On a steep loose climb I'm in turbo and spinning in the highest gear/biggest cog. As I get to the top my legs are getting tired and I'm obviously inputting less. Does this mean I'm not getting full power when I really need it?
Cheers
MATT
In turbo I'm 100 assistance 100 peak power. From my understanding the more the rider inputs the more you get from the motor.
On a steep loose climb I'm in turbo and spinning in the highest gear/biggest cog. As I get to the top my legs are getting tired and I'm obviously inputting less. Does this mean I'm not getting full power when I really need it?
Cheers
MATT
- Jul 12, 2018
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Current plan is to release a change to the app authentication process - this is a must on our side. Unfortunately the previous app won't support it and we are not partnered with the company that built it any longer. When we go ahead with that change (currently planned for 1st Nov) there is a chance that the old app may still work if you remain logged in but once you log out you will never get back in - we'd paint the picture that from Nov 1st it won't work.
Let's look at this another way - what are the functions on the previous app that you are missing in the newest version?
Swissrob
Well-known member
I will lose all my old date when I update and privacy in that it doesn't transmit all my date to you guys.
"we are not partnered with the company that built it any longer" now this really needs some clarification, in all the promo and blurb about Specialized bikes it gives the impression that MC is developed in house but this is not the case it seems. What is the situation with the new app, is some external company recording all our data and then processing/passing it on to Specialized?
I appreciate your effort to explain some of these things but I have some knowledge of machine learning so pretty much every 2019 rider using MC is actually providing Specialized with real world test data, free of charge. Arguably data of this quantity and quality is saving Specialized millions of dollars in development costs which is not reflected in the price or component selection in the 2019 Levo range, maybe it is time to give a little bit back to your riders?
Swissrob
Well-known member
Is there some specific reason why you didn't want to use the old version for 2019 bikes?
Your action gives me signal that your company does not care older bike owners. Except when they buy 2019 version?
I agree, surely it can't be too difficult to reverse engineer all the features (ie shuttle mode) to work with older models? Remember in 2016/7 when race mode was deleted to reduce motor load (and save a bucket load of warranty claims!) so it can be done if there is motivation.
Wow this is really BAD move on Specializeds behalf.
What happens to all of our ride data on the old App? Is it just lost?
I work in the software industry and normally there is a process for removing software called a ‘sunset policy’ where you give notice to all of the Application software Users months in advance and not DAYS in advance stating the software cannot be used after ‘this’ date. Also Users are given instructions regarding what tasks they need to carry out to ensure they can save their existing data to a ‘secure’ area.
This gives Users time to understand what is happening and prepare for the change.
I take it that is not going to happen in this instance?
Wow this is really BAD move on Specialized behalf.
What happens to all of our ride data on the old App? Is it just lost?
I work in the software industry and normally there is a process for removing software called a ‘sunset policy’ where you give notice to all of the Application software Users months in advance and not DAYS in advance stating the software cannot be used after this date. Also Users are given instructions regarding what tasks they need to carry out to ensure they can save their existing data to a ‘secure’ area.
This gives Users time to understand what is happening and prepare for the change.
I take it that is not going to happen in this instance?
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I understand your concern. We changed app developer primarily to build a more stable platform and to enable more regular updates alongside future functionality. (This was 100% in response to rider feedback about stability issues with the previous app design) For your peace of mind, it is exclusively our app and your data is only stored on our system - we are completely clear about what we do and don't do with it. However it is industry-standard to have a 3rd party support the key app development and provide an SDK build prior to this app being connected to real customer data. If you have specific questions on our privacy policy I'd be happy to dig deeper for you.
The reason we spend time here is to hear directly from you about issues you're facing or functionality that you'd like to see us develop - if you can share specific issues/ideas we'll do our best to help or pass them to the product teams.
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Totally fair comment. Without going into unhelpful layers of detail about why the change on 1st November, we have a communication ready that will go out to all registered riders soon explaining what you ask above. We wanted to launch the app first alongside the legacy version and then make at least one update before sending that communication. Depending on the time it takes to make that update we may shift the 1st Nov date out a little - but please understand I'm trying to paint a worst-case scenario so that at least people on here know where they stand.
Earlier in this thread we posted a link to the app FAQs which explains how to save your rides - alongside other useful info. Specialized.com
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@Matt b this is how I think it works, but someone can correct me! This other post gives useful info Mission Control iOS App 1.2.0 featuring Infinite Tune - Now Available - EMTB Forums
At 100 assistance support the Levo provides 320% of the rider power, and at 100 peak power up to the maximum of the motor power (let's assume that is 500 watts as mentioned in the post I linked).
If at the bottom of the hill you are pedalling at say 300 watts, then the motor power will be maxed at 500 watts giving a total of 800 watts.
If at the top of the hill you are tired and pedalling at 200 watts, then the motor power will still be maxed at 500 watts giving a total of 700 watts.
But if you were even more tired at the top and pedalling at 100 watts, then the motor would only be giving 3.2 times that = 320 watts, reduced from the maximum possible, and giving a total of 420 watts.
So it does depend on what power the rider can provide relative to what the actual power output of the motor is. I don't know if Mission Control can display those actual values? But I've seen that the BLEVO app can display them. So it might be useful to do a test and see what actual values you experience yourself.
I found a chart here which shows comparative power of different cyclists My World From a Bicycle: Comparative Measurements of Maximal Outputs for Cyclists
Note that to sustain even 200 watts you will have to be fairly fit!
VaseLEVO
New Member
Same here am software engineer. People have come to expect certain things from their software, and what we know is removing features always a bad thing from the customer perspective. Also you should never loose any data because you upgraded your software. Maybe it is presented a little differently but not lost. The other thing is its never a good thing when the user experience is degraded by a mandatory update. Better not to have something than to have it and then have not taken away. This goes for us 2018 and prior model owners. Those models are not in fact absolete as Spec ialized still selling them as new bikes. My 2018 Expert is not even a month old, so I would not expect to b e treated as if I have something obsolete. Hope this feedback helps out Specialized.
Other thing I will say is its very easy to have both apps at the same time. Just rename the old one to MC Classic for example. Let us keep it, and when you have everything ported and properly functional on all models then you can delete it. If by "Authentication is a must" you mean for your benefit its a must because you must have the data or visibility in to how your bikes are being used, why not implement some anonymization scheme and clearly communicate it to users so you get higher percentage of users willingly handing over data? I mean you must be careful in software business not to loose trust from your users because ones that is lost its very hard to gain it back.
Also can you just port the data for users directly requiring no action on their part? The old app is not secured, it has access to that data, and you have access to the code. Its an easy thing to have the new app login to the old app and just port the data. Am I missing something here? I am making an assumption ofcopurse about how this was implemented, so this is more a thing for you to consider. The less we have to do that you do transparently is better.
The argument that software apps is not much of a driving factor for users today is true. But here is how this works. As more and more manufacturers launch apps, it suddenly becomes expected by the majority of your customer base and suddenly a key differentiator. And that will be less than 5yrs as everything goes electric. Don't squander your first mover advantage because that may have no effect on sales today, but soon it will bleed you sales if you bungle it. the old school crowd will never care, but think about the new younger "smartphone generation" crowd getting into EMTBs now and many attracted to it because of electrification. Hope this helps
Other thing I will say is its very easy to have both apps at the same time. Just rename the old one to MC Classic for example. Let us keep it, and when you have everything ported and properly functional on all models then you can delete it. If by "Authentication is a must" you mean for your benefit its a must because you must have the data or visibility in to how your bikes are being used, why not implement some anonymization scheme and clearly communicate it to users so you get higher percentage of users willingly handing over data? I mean you must be careful in software business not to loose trust from your users because ones that is lost its very hard to gain it back.
Also can you just port the data for users directly requiring no action on their part? The old app is not secured, it has access to that data, and you have access to the code. Its an easy thing to have the new app login to the old app and just port the data. Am I missing something here? I am making an assumption ofcopurse about how this was implemented, so this is more a thing for you to consider. The less we have to do that you do transparently is better.
The argument that software apps is not much of a driving factor for users today is true. But here is how this works. As more and more manufacturers launch apps, it suddenly becomes expected by the majority of your customer base and suddenly a key differentiator. And that will be less than 5yrs as everything goes electric. Don't squander your first mover advantage because that may have no effect on sales today, but soon it will bleed you sales if you bungle it. the old school crowd will never care, but think about the new younger "smartphone generation" crowd getting into EMTBs now and many attracted to it because of electrification. Hope this helps
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First of all thanks for being brave enough to stick your head into the lions cave?? When that is said I must admit that I find your software quite dilletantic functionality vice. That I could live with as I will not use it for anything but setting up my 2018 Levo. What I can’t accept is the fact that I’m sure that you do not fully comply with the “European Community Privacy Act”. You do not clearly specify, within the app directly, WHAT you are logging as well as WHO you share it with. Secondly I see nowhere in the app the possibility to opt out of the logging part. Those two factors alone is forcing me to use a 3rd party app as I do not trust you to handle my personal Information. When I bought my bike I was not clearly informed that it was only usable if I give Specialized permission to be online with my bike at all times!
My point is that I bought a product where I can’t use all features without giving you access to private information - This alone is not in accordance with EU marketing rules.
Finally, I bought a dual wheel size bike and I frequently change wheels, pending where I ride. In the newest version of MC I cannot influence the wheel circumference with again influence my speed limit when riding. I kindly request you to fix the above mentioned issues ?
Karsten
PS No criticism without constructive suggestions and I’m more than willing to provide that if interested but don’t think it belongs in this thread.
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We expect an update to Mission Control in the next few days. This update addresses the following known issues with the initial release: -
- Login issues with some email addresses (e.g"-", .com.au)
- Ride list improvements and map fixes, Strava uploaded rides are marked
- Customised order of widgets now saves correctly
- iOS 12 compatibility issues resolved
- Improved offline functionality
- Various small improvements to operation/stability
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