Dengfu E22 Frame Thread

[Neeko DeVinchi]

Dear Neeko, I bought L size frame..

T3-5 EC44/ZS56 130-140mm Straight Steerer

 

[BelviGER]

I've managed it, I looked at a bike long enough that there is now an updated version of it

INNOTRACE | Black Forest Bikes X3 Carbon E-Bike 2500w Sonderedition

BLACK FOREST BIKES X3 Carbon als 2500w Sonderedition Mit dem von uns gewohnten 25km/h Modus. Ausstattung: Motor: Bafang Ultra M620 / G510 INNOTRACE Edition maximalen Peakleistung von 2500 Watt 200Nm maximales Drehmoment Steuerung per Drehmoment und Passsensor INNOTRACE X2 Display Inkl. Gasgriff...

innotrace-shop.de

Can anyone comment on the parts they installed on this e22?
Not super into the whole "mountainbike" part of "e-mountainbike" yet so I can't comment on if they are great parts, or lackluster, or....

 

[Tomblarom]

Can anyone comment on the parts they installed on this e22? Not super into the whole "mountainbike" part of "e-mountainbike" so I can't comment on if they are great parts, or lackluster, or....

This is really an updated version. Magura MT5 is the golden standard for MTB-brakes. Even though MT7 exists, majority still uses MT5, because it's reliable and cheaper P N W, Fizik, ProTaper, Magura and Shimano are all very well-known brands in MTB. For the main components like fork and shock, they seem to use parts from DVO, which is a young but yet competitive company. I prefer Rockshox over Fox, due to their cheaper prices for replacement parts, but DVO also was on my parts list for my next bike. (read for yourself: A Quick Look at DVO Suspension (Better Than RockShox/Fox/Cane Creek?)) And finally you're getting the powerful X1 controller from Innotrace themselves.. Compared to stock Bafang controller this is a rocket.. Done several thousand kilometers and wasn't disappointed by the reliability!

I also got a coupon code for 1.200€ off. Was primarily meant for our Facebook Group, but I'm allowed to share it here: JJ8Q3FY2

 

[BelviGER]

This is really an updated version. Magura MT5 is the golden standard for MTB-brakes. Even though MT7 exists, majority still uses MT5, because it's reliable and cheaper P N W, Fizik, ProTaper, Magura and Shimano are all very well-known brands in MTB. For the main components like fork and shock, they seem to use parts from DVO, which is a young but yet competitive company. I prefer Rockshox over Fox, due to their cheaper prices for replacement parts, but DVO also was on my parts list for my next bike. (read for yourself: A Quick Look at DVO Suspension (Better Than RockShox/Fox/Cane Creek?)) And finally you're getting the powerful X1 controller from Innotrace themselves.. Compared to stock Bafang controller this is a rocket.. Done several thousand kilometers and wasn't disappointed by the reliability!

I also got a coupon code for 1.200€ off. Was primarily meant for our Facebook Group, but I'm allowed to share it here: JJ8Q3FY2

Oh I'm aware about their controlers and the coupon code, got the code sent to me via FB message by innotrace, and their only competition (for me as a customer) is their non-special-edition X3. BTW it appears like the post I saw in the Bafang group disappeared...

I was just severly lacking in the needed knowledge to be able to compare the parts on the normal X3 vs the special variant.
Manitou Mezzer Pro vs DVO Jade X, Duroc SC35 vs Duroc SD37 or Reynolds TR307, Manitou McLeod or Mara vs DVO, that sort of thing

The one thing I did know about is that they somehow managed to fit a larger battery into their new one which is dope

Checking the stuff you linked to me now

 

[BojanZ]

T3-5 EC44/ZS56 130-140mm Straight Steerer

Dear Neeko, many thanks. This is probably the only part whit which I am really not familiar yet. So what do the numbers really mean (44 and 56) and why is there no mention of 28.6 mm (which is the diameter of my steerimg tube)?

Thank you!

 

[HIDrive]

My medium (18") E22 frame finally arrived today! First order of business was to swing by my local bike shop and have them press in my Works 2 degree angle headset. Unfortunately the bottom cup fully pressed in has left a 5mm gap. I'm wondering if I F'd up and ordered the wrong headset or if something in the design has changed. This is the one I ordered,

2.0 Degree EC44-ZS56 Angle Headset, Headtube Length:SET 4 120-129mm

If this is indeed the right part should I just run it and call it good?

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

Dear Neeko, many thanks. This is probably the only part whit which I am really not familiar yet. So what do the numbers really mean (44 and 56) and why is there no mention of 28.6 mm (which is the diameter of my steerimg tube)?

Thank you!

The headset numbers correlate with the diameter of the headtube diameter both upper and lower. In the E22s case, it uses a 44mm diameter headset for the top & a 56mm diameter headset for the lower.

As for the headset correlating with whether it caters for a straight steerer or tapered, usually headsets should verify whether the headset is suitable for straight steerer or tapered steerer.
In the case of Superstar components, they give options on whether you can buy a straight steerer headset or tapered. Just make sure you buy the headset designed for 130-140mm for your large E22 frame

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

My medium (18") E22 frame finally arrived today! First order of business was to swing by my local bike shop and have them press in my Works 2 degree angle headset. Unfortunately the bottom cup fully pressed in has left a 5mm gap. I'm wondering if I F'd up and ordered the wrong headset or if something in the design has changed. This is the one I ordered,

2.0 Degree EC44-ZS56 Angle Headset, Headtube Length:SET 4 120-129mm

If this is indeed the right part should I just run it and call it good?

View attachment 99822 View attachment 99824

The medium E22s should have a headtube length of 120mm'ish. The lower cup should be fully seated into the headtube.
Just to be safe, please measure the headtube yourself @HIDrive. I have noticed discrepancies with certain geometry numbers on my E22 compared to the geometry chart.

 

[HIDrive]

Sorry

The medium E22s should have a headtube length of 120mm'ish. The lower cup should be fully seated into the headtube.
Just to be safe, please measure the headtube yourself @HIDrive. I have noticed discrepancies with certain geometry numbers on my E22 compared to the geometry chart.

Thankfully the headtube measures 120mm exactly. The depth of the Works bottom cup is about 17mm however it's tricky to tell how deep the insertion recess is in the headtube at this point with the cup installed. Is this in fact the right headset then given the headtube length? I'm guessing then this is more then cosmetic and would actually be unsafe to ride this way?

 

[HIDrive]

One more question! Maybe it's late and I've been at this all day but the only way I can fit these connectors coming from the battery mount to the motor is from black to red and red to black which just seems WRONG! Am I crazy or is one of these connectors wrong?

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

Those are Anderson connectors @HIDrive. They slide/clip together, depending on the orientation you wish to have them in.
Simply slide and unclip them from one another and arrange in the best orientation, to prevent any kinks. This will ensure that the motor can be seated into the motor mount flush

 

[BojanZ]

The headset numbers correlate with the diameter of the headtube diameter both upper and lower. In the E22s case, it uses a 44mm diameter headset for the top & a 56mm diameter headset for the lower.

As for the headset correlating with whether it caters for a straight steerer or tapered, usually headsets should verify whether the headset is suitable for straight steerer or tapered steerer.
In the case of Superstar components, they give options on whether you can buy a straight steerer headset or tapered. Just make sure you buy the headset designed for 130-140mm for your large E22 frame

Ok, thanks! That means that all forks basically are 28.6 mm on top and bottom if straight, and tapered ones are 39.8 at the bottom?

Thanks for your efforts!

 

[Sheff73]

My medium (18") E22 frame finally arrived today! First order of business was to swing by my local bike shop and have them press in my Works 2 degree angle headset. Unfortunately the bottom cup fully pressed in has left a 5mm gap. I'm wondering if I F'd up and ordered the wrong headset or if something in the design has changed. This is the one I ordered,

2.0 Degree EC44-ZS56 Angle Headset, Headtube Length:SET 4 120-129mm

If this is indeed the right part should I just run it and call it good?

View attachment 99822 View attachment 99824

From memory the headset cup depth in the E10 frame is something like 10-12mm (quite shallow compared to most other frame manufactures). The Works headset cup depth is considerably more than a 'standard' headset cup, hence why you've not managed to seat it to the correct depth. You have 2 options:-

1) get the non-bearing diameter of the cup machined down to slightly below the frame insertion depth.
or
2) get the frame cup location diameter machined slightly deeper to accommodate the 'tall' cup depth.

Option 2 will need to be done professionally to avoid wrecking the carbon frame. Machining the aluminium headset cup, although not ideal, is an easier task with less risk.

I personally wouldn't leave the situation as-is though (shown in your photo) as you run the risk of the cup 'moving about' under load and eventually wrecking the locating diameter in the frame.

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

So a friend of mine 'lost his s$@t' at me, after discovering that I've been using a 5amp charger to charge my Dengfu batteries

Honestly, I never thought anything of it. But it has dawned on me that no one wants to be waiting unnecessarily for a battery to charge.

This particular charger allows me to fully charge the 840wh battery from flat to full in 3 1/2 hours.

Compared to the stock 3amp charger, which would fully charge an 840wh battery near 6 hours.

Their is an argument that by using the fast charger as the default charger, you degrade the battery quicker. But 'depending on your outlook and perspective' it doesn't hurt to have a fast charging option for travelling or for someone whose short on time due to work or other commitments.

I'm liaising with a couple of vendors, to see whether they will consider giving the customer the option of having a 3amp or 5amp charger for Dengfu framesets. I'll keep you posted on any feedback I receive

 

[Mabman]

I use a Grin Satiator charger that I have set to 4A that I use mostly but have an 8A setting that I can use if a faster charge is necessary. The limiting factor to me and why I don't really like to use higher than 4A is the DC barrel connector/jack plug that is common on Asian bikes like this

in not rated for over 4A use as per:

"These DC jack plugs are not usually rated for very high currents, and their design makes it easy to accidentally short the pin and ground tabs with a piece of metal. There are some models that have a multi-prong ground connection and are rated for up to 7 amps, but most of the models are only good for 2-4 amps. This is especially true if the mating contact to the ground sheath is just a single bent metal tab."

Copied from ebikes.ca who have lots of relevant info on their site although they are primarily a hub motor place. If I am charging t 8A I definitely keep an eye on it but with the 4A setting I don't worry as it doesn't seem to get hot enough to do any harm.

 

[Daxxie]

So a friend of mine 'lost his s$@t' at me, after discovering that I've been using a 5amp charger to charge my Dengfu batteries

A 5 amp charger is fine.

Of course it depends on the cells (and BMS)

You have a 48V 840Wh battery.
840/48= 17.5Ah
The Dengfu battery is 13S5P
17.5/5= 3500mAh cells are used.
Most Dengfu battery's I saw use Samsung 35E cells

Samsung spec sheet says:


For a good cycle life 1 Amp per cell is OK. You have a 5P battery = 5Amps. No problem!


In my own batteries i use a lot of LG MJ1 3500mAh cells.

Their max Charge Current is a bit higher (3400 vs 2000)
And when I am in a hurry I have no problem charging them with 8Amps.

In my E23 I use a 14S5P 21700 with Molicels P42A


Standard charge is 4.2A per cell!!!
I could charge that with a 20Amp charger (If I had one )
Would take less then an hour for a fully charged 1092Wh battery.

The BMS also has a "max charge current".
My Dengfu battery that I bought with my E22 frame had only a "tiny" 20Amp BMS
but even that had 10A Max charge capability.
So I wouldn't worry too much about that.
Worry about the fact that these small BMS used in the E10/22/23 batteries have no balancing function!

 

[Waynemarlow]

Their is an argument that by using the fast charger as the default charger, you degrade the battery quicker.

But we are talking about discharging and recharging your battery 1000's of times before rapid charge becomes an issue. In the lifetime of your battery will you recharge it that many times ?

Equally those who never charge beyond 80% where the balancing of cells by the BMS comes into play, there's those who say your battery life will be extended. Again in our type of use it will make almost no difference.

 

[timal]

A 5 amp charger is fine.

Of course it depends on the cells (and BMS)

You have a 48V 840Wh battery.
840/48= 17.5Ah
The Dengfu battery is 13S5P
17.5/5= 3500mAh cells are used.
Most Dengfu battery's I saw use Samsung 35E cells

Samsung spec sheet says:
View attachment 99956

For a good cycle life 1 Amp per cell is OK. You have a 5P battery = 5Amps. No problem!


In my own batteries i use a lot of LG MJ1 3500mAh cells.
View attachment 99957
Their max Charge Current is a bit higher (3400 vs 2000)
And when I am in a hurry I have no problem charging them with 8Amps.

In my E23 I use a 14S5P 21700 with Molicels P42A
View attachment 99958

Standard charge is 4.2A per cell!!!
I could charge that with a 20Amp charger (If I had one )
Would take less then an hour for a fully charged 1092Wh battery.

The BMS also has a "max charge current".
My Dengfu battery that I bought with my E22 frame had only a "tiny" 20Amp BMS
but even that had 10A Max charge capability.
So I wouldn't worry too much about that.
Worry about the fact that these small BMS used in the E10/22/23 batteries have no balancing function!

View attachment 99961

Thanks for the détailled feedback. Do you think or have experience with swapping the BMS with a more amp capable one ? 30 / 40 amps could be great with X1 controller.

 

[TeoElFeo]

Standard charge is 4.2A per cell!!!
I could charge that with a 20Amp charger (If I had one )
Would take less then an hour for a fully charged 1092Wh battery.

View attachment 99961

Could you please tell me what is your battery configuration and cells used?

 

[HIDrive]

From memory the headset cup depth in the E10 frame is something like 10-12mm (quite shallow compared to most other frame manufactures). The Works headset cup depth is considerably more than a 'standard' headset cup, hence why you've not managed to seat it to the correct depth. You have 2 options:-

1) get the non-bearing diameter of the cup machined down to slightly below the frame insertion depth.
or
2) get the frame cup location diameter machined slightly deeper to accommodate the 'tall' cup depth.

Option 2 will need to be done professionally to avoid wrecking the carbon frame. Machining the aluminium headset cup, although not ideal, is an easier task with less risk.

I personally wouldn't leave the situation as-is though (shown in your photo) as you run the risk of the cup 'moving about' under load and eventually wrecking the locating diameter in the frame.

Thanks for your detailed response! I had seen this headset reccomended many times in this E22 specific thread so you can imagine my surprise when it wasnt compatible. My build is getting close to complete and I'm exploring my options. I have the headset that was included with the frame kit, I've also thought about making a shim to close the gap in this headset... If there is a 2 degree headset that will work for this frame I'd love some suggestions! I'm still waiting on my rear shock bushings so I have time to order new headset if need be.

 

[Daxxie]

Thanks for the détailled feedback. Do you think or have experience with swapping the BMS with a more amp capable one ? 30 / 40 amps could be great with X1 controller.

My battery was only 768Wh
and came with a 20A BMS.


Same BMS also exists in a 30A version.



Maybe yours is a 30A version?
Check that first!


If you want to upgrade:
Cables are 14AWG.
They can handle 50+Amps
But there is almost no room to put a decent BMS.



My BMS measures

The only powerful tiny BMS that I know is a Neptune 15
It's 5mm longer and 11mm wider. Will be a tight fit!

Could you please tell me what is your battery configuration and cells used?

I went for a 14S5P with 21700 Molicel P42A and a 60Amp BMS.
21Ah 1092Wh
But I had to cut open the frame.
It was very experimental, complicated, non removable
and probably not safe
Would not do this again!!!


Been working on this "removable" case.
3d Printed in PETG


Can hold 14S4P 21700
With Samsung 50S that would result in 20Ah 1040Wh
Will be using a 60Amp BMS (for Innotrace motor)

 

[BojanZ]

Dear Neeko, many thanks. This is probably the only part whit which I am really not familiar yet. So what do the numbers really mean (44 and 56) and why is there no mention of 28.6 mm (which is the diameter of my steerimg tube)?

Thank you!

Dear Neeko, sorry for bothering you again! Superstar components is unfortunately not shipping to other EU countries, so I found Workscomponents. Can you just double check on this link, I select SET 5 and option WITH reducer for straight fork, will that be ok (especially those numbers of the insertion depth, will it fit)?

2.0 Degree EC44-ZS56 Angle Headset - To Suit Tapered Steerer Tube

Change your bikes geometry to suit you with our 2.0 Degree EC44-ZS56. World Cup proven angle headsets that allow you to alter stock geometry, changing the way your bike rides and feels to better match your personal riding style - CNC machined in-house in the UK and supplied globally.

www.workscomponents.co.uk

 

[HIDrive]

Dear Neeko, sorry for bothering you again! Superstar components is unfortunately not shipping to other EU countries, so I found Workscomponents. Can you just double check on this link, I select SET 5 and option WITH reducer for straight fork, will that be ok (especially those numbers of the insertion depth, will it fit)?

2.0 Degree EC44-ZS56 Angle Headset - To Suit Tapered Steerer Tube

Change your bikes geometry to suit you with our 2.0 Degree EC44-ZS56. World Cup proven angle headsets that allow you to alter stock geometry, changing the way your bike rides and feels to better match your personal riding style - CNC machined in-house in the UK and supplied globally.

www.workscomponents.co.uk

That is the exact same one I ordered and unfortunately the bottom cup is way too thick/tall. I also tried to order a superstar headset but they dont ship to me either so I caved and bought a Wolf Tooth 2 Degree Geoshift which has a 9.5mm insertion depth for the lower cup.

Wolf Tooth 2 Degree GeoShift Performance Angle Headset

 

[timal]

My battery was only 768Wh
and came with a 20A BMS.
View attachment 100055

Same BMS also exists in a 30A version.

View attachment 100057

Maybe yours is a 30A version?
Check that first!


If you want to upgrade:
Cables are 14AWG.
They can handle 50+Amps
But there is almost no room to put a decent BMS.

View attachment 100053

My BMS measures
View attachment 100054

The only powerful tiny BMS that I know is a Neptune 15 View attachment 100056
It's 5mm longer and 11mm wider. Will be a tight fit!




I went for a 14S5P with 21700 Molicel P42A and a 60Amp BMS.
21Ah 1092Wh
But I had to cut open the frame.
It was very experimental, complicated, non removable
and probably not safe
Would not do this again!!!
View attachment 100058

Been working on this "removable" case.
3d Printed in PETG

View attachment 100059 View attachment 100060
Can hold 14S4P 21700
With Samsung 50S that would result in 20Ah 1040Wh
Will be using a 60Amp BMS (for Innotrace motor)

Mate, I don't know what to say except a big THANK YOU! For the quality and details levels of your answer. Unfortunately, that might fell off for me, as it seems that I can't order the X1 controller without sending it back to Germany. I m in Australia, so it is not economically relevant . If anyone knows a plan B, happy to hear from you. My only option left would be to install a phase runner from grin externally..that the last option I see...

 

[Daxxie]

Mate, I don't know what to say except a big THANK YOU! For the quality and details levels of your answer. Unfortunately, that might fell off for me, as it seems that I can't order the X1 controller without sending it back to Germany. I m in Australia, so it is not economically relevant . If anyone knows a plan B, happy to hear from you. My only option left would be to install a phase runner from grin externally..that the last option I see...

Innotrace X1 is great but yes it involves shipping to Germany and back.
Maybe you can consider having a new unit shipped from Innotrace?

I did the Phaserunner internally


Ran it for a year but never got it smooth.
Not an easy installation! Very hard to configure!
Newer Ultra's (since 2018) don't have physical hall sensors anymore.
So you have to run it sensorless or use a PCB from and old controller to connect the hall sensor chip.

It's an external device with a lot of extra cables and the not so pretty CA display


Taking off from standstill was aIways problematic.
Lots of broken chains and cassette wear!
It ran great on higher revs (300% more) with field weakening.

No need to shift anymore.
But You can't keep up with the pedals so its more like a throttle only bike.
And these high revs wil trash your rotor gear in a month.


The innotrace is very smooth. Goes easy on the drivetrain.
More then enough power (+3000W)
140% Field weakening so you don't have to shift that often.
There is no comparison.

Other option is a shunt mod.
Easy and cheap. If you don't overdo it you can run it at 40Amps which will give you +2000W on a 52V battery.
But I wouldn't push it much higher. Std controller get's hot easy.
So use a lot of thermal grease behind the PCB (There is none from factory)

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

Hi @BojanZ, I've just messaged Superstar Components to confirm why they are no longer shipping outside the UK. Their website still states that they do.
Following from HIDrive's above pictures, I wouldn't mind cross referencing the insertion requirements of the headset cups.

Mine works and is fully seated into the headtube. But clearly something is up.
Superstar Components respond quite quickly so I'll update you all shortly.

Superstar components can be reached by email @ [email protected]

@HIDrive, please kindly keep us posted on the Wolftooth geostorm headset

 

[BojanZ]

Thanks for your detailed response! I had seen this headset reccomended many times in this E22 specific thread so you can imagine my surprise when it wasnt compatible. My build is getting close to complete and I'm exploring my options. I have the headset that was included with the frame kit, I've also thought about making a shim to close the gap in this headset... If there is a 2 degree headset that will work for this frame I'd love some suggestions! I'm still waiting on my rear shock bushings so I have time to order new headset if need be.

I was just looking the nex X3 Black Forest on Innotrace site and the photo of geometry also indicates the HEADTUBE length and it is only 120 mm on XL frame. Can anyone somehow check physically on his own frame if this data on Innotrace is ok? It is E22 frame which is Innotrace using?
Even Dengfu has some different measurements plus the fact that E22 is not listed on their website is somehow strange +
Mia/Tony is not giving me this data - I requested it twice already.

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

Could you provide a link @BojanZ?

 

[BojanZ]

Sorry:
Link to Black Forest X3:

INNOTRACE | Black Forest Bikes X3 Carbon E-Bike 2500w Sonderedition

BLACK FOREST BIKES X3 Carbon als 2500w Sonderedition Mit dem von uns gewohnten 25km/h Modus. Ausstattung: Motor: Bafang Ultra M620 / G510 INNOTRACE Edition maximalen Peakleistung von 2500 Watt 200Nm maximales Drehmoment Steuerung per Drehmoment und Passsensor INNOTRACE X2 Display Inkl. Gasgriff...

innotrace-shop.de

 

[HIDrive]

Here is the measurment of the head tubne on my Medium (18") frame ordered in September and delivered on October 22nd. The total thickness of the bottom cup they included with the frame is 11mm.