Avinox launch 1500w M2S motor and cheaper M2 motor

[Gauss Guzzler]

Amflow had a nice animation of the M2S drive-side gears on their site but I think they may have deleted it. I wish I had screencapped it because it showed the gearing perfectly.

Anyway, the final stage is now helical, as advertised, so there are no longer any straight cut gears anywhere. The largest final gear includes a thin anti-backlash gear which is spring loaded to slightly misalign with and gently "pinch" the teeth of the mating gear, just as @TheKaiser speculated.

Anti-backlash gears are common and they typically feature equal-sized gears with very strong springs to allow full torque in both directions at the expense of very high friction. Avinox uses only a very thin anti-backlash gear with a weak spring that is just barely strong enough to minimize rattle without adding a lot of friction since it never needs to carry torque in the opposite direction.

Here's an example of a standard anti-backlash gear which illustrates the concept. One gear is connected to the shaft and the other is floating on springs. In use, they would be almost perfectly aligned as they pinch the teeth of the mating gear:

 

[Gauss Guzzler]

Ah, found it! on the Avinox site.
The animation shows the gears being brought together incorrectly but it does show the misaligned/aligned states of the thin black (Delirin?) anti-backlash gear:

 

[SunChild]

Hi TheKaiser, this is as far as I’ve got so far in this thread, so apologies if my comment has already been mentioned or proven wrong, but I had an online chat with Amflow yesterday, as I was keen on the idea of the 600wh in the PR (to bring down the weight) but they said that is not an option. You can only buy the PR with the 800wh; furthermore- in trying to understand my question they made reference to the “new forthcoming” 600wh battery (I can’t remember what they called it but it was prefixed with a letter or something similar I think) which seemed to suggest it was specifically designed for the outside (range extending) fixture and not a normal 600wh designed to go inside like the 800wh. Anyway, thought I’d mention it, as I’d love to be wrong, as the PR is a great price and spec but the weight is too heavy for (very light) me!

In the Amflow Pr launch video around 1:26, they say that you can swap in the 600Wh removable battery. The video shows the 600Wh battery being placed into the bike. So I think it is possible to have the PR with a 600Wh battery, whether you can buy the PR with the 600Wh instead of the 800Wh is another question.

web player

 

[Red Peekay]

I can't answer that question, but since range is important to you I wanted to remind you that the removable batteries open up the option to carry a spare in a backpack, and swap out mid-ride. In the past, I have seen a lot of people who do mega-vert in the Alps discussing that method, although I know some people don't like to ride with a backpack or, if they do, don't want to add 3-4kg to it. I wouldn't want it to be my everyday setup, but with the right backpack I could see using that method for infrequent but big backcountry rides that don't allow a trip back to the car to switch batteries.

My major concern carrying a spare battery in a backpack is what happens if you pitch off the bike and land on the backpack. Unless you are also padding the backpack to protect the battery, you run the risk of damaging the battery and that could get really ugly, really fast... read thermal runaway reaction

At least in a downtube there is a level of protection. Something to consider.

 

[Wojtek]

Carrying 4kg of battery in the backpack is the opposite of fun so completely pointless.

Couldnt give a damn about the downtube being sleek if i had to carry it for hours while biking.

And i want to remind that amflow dies say: more configurations coming soon!

Just need to be patient

 

[Zimmerframe]

The video from @Gauss Guzzler's link showing the M2S internal gearing :

 

[Red Peekay]

The video from @Gauss Guzzler's link showing the M2S internal gearing :


View attachment 181773

Which bit is the Flux Capacitor (to allow for the regulation of the dilithium crystals and creation of the high energy plasma through a powerful matter-antimatter reaction)? If I'm correct, it should be attenuated by the fozjamb rectifier which powers the coils to create the subspace warp bubble. This thereby allowing it to bend the space/time continuum... hence why any bike powered by the M2S motor will be capable of achieving warp speed. Which is why all the excitement.. this motor is now officially a warp drive....

Now what is missing in all the above discussions around the molicel batteries is how has Avinox integrated the
Warp Coils/Nacelles into the battery architecture to promote the plasma flows into the coils (made of verterium cortenide) that generate the warp bubble? Fascinating!

Live long and prosper my friends!

 

[Zimmerframe]

Which bit is the Flux Capacitor (to allow for the regulation of the dilithium crystals and creation of the high energy plasma through a powerful matter-antimatter reaction)? If I'm correct, it should be attenuated by the fozjamb rectifier which powers the coils to create the subspace warp bubble. This thereby allowing it to bend the space/time continuum... hence why any bike powered by the M2S motor will be capable of achieving warp speed. Which is why all the excitement.. this motor is now officially a warp drive....

Now what is missing in all the above discussions around the molicel batteries is how has Avinox integrated the
Warp Coils/Nacelles into the battery architecture to promote the plasma flows into the coils (made of verterium cortenide) that generate the warp bubble? Fascinating!

Live long and prosper my friends!

I believe the M2S uses a methane capture system via the dropped post.

Amflow recommend you buy and eat their own Assflow energy bars for peak efficiency with the system.

 

[Imanol]

I'm sorry, but I felt obligated to provide the root of all our problems.

 

[b33k34]

Interesting.

Also, currently the charger operates at 12a - if he have the ability to charge any faster, is it possible? Our UK plugs are 13a max.

Pretty sure the 12a rating is at the 36 (?) Volts of the e bike battery.
Power= VxA so that’s 432 watts. (I think I saw some thing refer to it as a 500watt charger which would be about right with overhead)

13A at 240 v is 3120watts so you could still run 7 fast chargers from a single socket with a little headroom

 

[Wojtek]

View attachment 181774I'm sorry, but I felt obligated to provide the root of all our problems.

Less noise - ticked! Small range extender hopefully coming soon. We are close to perfect, just have one 936wh internal removeable option. I don't need much to be happy.

Would be nice to see Maxon S technology with similar power one day. So it is not all about avinox.

 

[b33k34]

I thought it was a joke someone made with AI!
so we do have the dual battery available - kind of RE!

1400wh is kind of too much and it looks ugly.
1000wh single internal could be the sweetspot but one can never be fully happy

View attachment 181365

That is so ugly, excessive in terms of capacity, and going to have a really adverse impact on handling.

But people demanded an RE and they’ve delivered. Maybe some of the battery experts can advise - are there difficulties delivering enough current for the dji motors from a small RE battery? I’m pretty sure Orbeas REs for the Rise didn’t allow full power on the Rise25+ with 85 torque. But Specialized now do an RE for the Levo4.

2-300w bottle cage format mounted low is what’s needed. Would be perfect addition to the PX for big days out.

 

[emtbeast]

Which bit is the Flux Capacitor (to allow for the regulation of the dilithium crystals and creation of the high energy plasma through a powerful matter-antimatter reaction)? If I'm correct, it should be attenuated by the fozjamb rectifier which powers the coils to create the subspace warp bubble. This thereby allowing it to bend the space/time continuum... hence why any bike powered by the M2S motor will be capable of achieving warp speed. Which is why all the excitement.. this motor is now officially a warp drive....

Now what is missing in all the above discussions around the molicel batteries is how has Avinox integrated the
Warp Coils/Nacelles into the battery architecture to promote the plasma flows into the coils (made of verterium cortenide) that generate the warp bubble? Fascinating!

Live long and prosper my friends!

Someone needs to use the M2S video and your post and make an AI version of it

 

[Wojtek]

That is so ugly, excessive in terms of capacity, and going to have a really adverse impact on handling.

But people demanded an RE and they’ve delivered. Maybe some of the battery experts can advise - are there difficulties delivering enough current for the dji motors from a small RE battery? I’m pretty sure Orbeas REs for the Rise didn’t allow full power on the Rise25+ with 85 torque. But Specialized now do an RE for the Levo4.

2-300w bottle cage format mounted low is what’s needed. Would be perfect addition to the PX for big days out.

I dont think it is difficult. And Avinox is working on it - they say on the website: more configurations coming soon.

For me personally having bigger intetnal battery option is a better choice than RE.
But i totally see the point of RE - why carrying bigger pack for shorter trips.

 

[zizajaun]

That is so ugly, excessive in terms of capacity, and going to have a really adverse impact on handling.

But people demanded an RE and they’ve delivered. Maybe some of the battery experts can advise - are there difficulties delivering enough current for the dji motors from a small RE battery? I’m pretty sure Orbeas REs for the Rise didn’t allow full power on the Rise25+ with 85 torque. But Specialized now do an RE for the Levo4.

2-300w bottle cage format mounted low is what’s needed. Would be perfect addition to the PX for big days out.

Not an expert, but I've built a few batteries. There are certainly challenges getting enough current out of a small RE if it's going to be used on its own, especially if they use the same LG M58T cells as the 800 Wh batteries (which are different from the 46mm cells in the 700 Wh battery), which have a pretty low 10 A per cell discharge limit. For example, a 400 Wh RE would probably have a 10s2p configuration, so the output limit would be 20 A, which is 20*36=720 W nominal (actually varies because the voltage depends on the charge %). A 600 Wh extender would be limited to 1080 W nominal output with those cells. A 200 Wh RE would be just 360 W output.

If the range extender is attached when it has the same voltage (i.e. state of charge) as the main battery, it can act basically as an additional parallel group (or two), so the load is shared. There are potential issues like added resistance from the cables joining the main to the RE causing an imbalance, but I think firmware can control for this disparity.

But if the voltage of the RE is higher (e.g. you attach it when the main battery is half full), that would normally be discharged alone until it reaches the same voltage as the main. In that case, the current would have to be limited to whatever the limit of the RE is. I think there are ways around this with hardware + firmware choices (e.g. a DC-DC converter to equalise the voltage being delivered to the motor), but if the main battery runs out before the RE, I don't see any way of getting around the basic physics of low-output cells. My guess is that the firmware would regulate the current drawn from each battery so the main is never fully depleted before the RE, and prevent the RE being used on its own. Someone on here will probably know more than I do about such things.

EDIT: If a DC-DC converter is used, maybe totally different cells can be used in the RE, as the cell chemistry doesn't have to be the same. There are lots of high-power cells that could provide full power to the motor in a 150-400 Wh package.

 

[b33k34]

Not an expert, but I've built a few batteries. There are certainly challenges getting enough current out of a small RE if it's going to be used on its own, especially if they use the same LG M58T cells as the 800 Wh batteries (which are different from the 46mm cells in the 700 Wh battery), which have a pretty low 10 A per cell discharge limit. For example, a 400 Wh RE would probably have a 10s2p configuration, so the output limit would be 20 A, which is 20*36=720 W nominal (actually varies because the voltage depends on the charge %). A 600 Wh extender would be limited to 1080 W nominal output with those cells. A 200 Wh RE would be just 360 W output.

If the range extender is attached when it has the same voltage (i.e. state of charge) as the main battery, it can act basically as an additional parallel group (or two), so the load is shared. There are potential issues like added resistance from the cables joining the main to the RE causing an imbalance, but I think firmware can control for this disparity.

But if the voltage of the RE is higher (e.g. you attach it when the main battery is half full), that would normally be discharged alone until it reaches the same voltage as the main. In that case, the current would have to be limited to whatever the limit of the RE is. I think there are ways around this with hardware + firmware choices (e.g. a DC-DC converter to equalise the voltage being delivered to the motor), but if the main battery runs out before the RE, I don't see any way of getting around the basic physics of low-output cells. My guess is that the firmware would regulate the current drawn from each battery so the main is never fully depleted before the RE, and prevent the RE being used on its own. Someone on here will probably know more than I do about such things.

I'm trying to remember how the different range extenders I've known have worked. I *think* the Orbea Rise v1 runs down the RE first - so you would hit that power limit (so was possible to then remove the RE and dump it back in the car to ride the rest of the day on the internal battery)
I think the Bosch Wild which had the ridiculous bulky external Bosch battery as an RE ran them both down together.

Not sure about the Spec. stuff.

 

[zizajaun]

I'm trying to remember how the different range extenders I've known have worked. I *think* the Orbea Rise v1 runs down the RE first - so you would hit that power limit (so was possible to then remove the RE and dump it back in the car to ride the rest of the day on the internal battery)
I think the Bosch Wild which had the ridiculous bulky external Bosch battery as an RE ran them both down together.

Not sure about the Spec. stuff.

Almost certain the new Spec (and maybe the old) can be run just off the RE for short rides.

 

[Ribinrobin]

Almost certain the new Spec (and maybe the old) can be run just off the RE for short rides.

Yeah it can and it tones down power for it.

 

[action99]

Yamaha/Giant one that connect to the charging port needs the main battery to work. Afaik the same for Bosh 4/5.
Latest Levo can run only with the RS.

I don't care to run only with the RS but I would love to have ~300wh RS, 600 is overkill for the size. I would rather have 2 300 RS.... than that big 600 RS.

 

[Loamranger]

My understanding is that fast charging can accelerate deterioration in battery life. Does anyone have more knowledge of this possible issue?

 

[Petrex]

My reading around the subject says that full charging is worse than fast charging. Slow and 80% would be best, but fast 80% seems to be about the same.
Some people disagree of course.

 

[Suns_PSD]

My understanding is that fast charging can accelerate deterioration in battery life. Does anyone have more knowledge of this possible issue?

Slow steady charging is in fact better for battery life.

How much of a difference in the real world on a bike does this make, I can't say.

Would be cool to have a switch and be able to slow charge when you are not a hurry, or fast charge when you are in a hurry.

 

[Powerslider]

This race for more and more capable suspension systems has got to stop. When are we going to say enough is enough? We're going to lose trail access!!! All the manufacturers should agree that 120mm of suspension should be the limit.

Wait- sorry; wrong thread.

 

[sethimus]

Slow steady charging is in fact better for battery life.

How much of a difference in the real world on a bike does this make, I can't say.

Would be cool to have a switch and be able to slow charge when you are not a hurry, or fast charge when you are in a hurry.

you only say that because 4A is all you can have

 

[Dpca10]

@Rob Rides EMTB is there any way you can tell us if the connections for the M2s and m1 to the battery are the same? I bought my wife the xs pivot with the new motor but she is much more of a casual rider than me. Considering swapping my M1 crestline motor for hers If all fits

 

[John_likes_bikes]

@Rob Rides EMTB is there any way you can tell us if the connections for the M2s and m1 to the battery are the same? I bought my wife the xs pivot with the new motor but she is much more of a casual rider than me. Considering swapping my M1 crestline motor for hers If all fits

Ohhhh, I like this. My wife is now getting a new bike with an old motor!

 

[Powerslider]

Disclaimer: This post isn't about Levo; it's about the new Avinox battery system. Only mentioning my Levo because it's my reference.

Weird to me that I see reviewers saying the new even-faster Avinox charger takes less than 3 hours to fully charge the 800Wh battery. My Levo 4 takes less than 3 hours to charge its 840Wh battery, and I don't even own Specialized's fast charger! I don't personally value fast charging, but I don't understand how the Avinox isn't charging a lot faster.

 

[John_likes_bikes]

Disclaimer: This post isn't about Levo; it's about the new Avinox battery system. Only mentioning my Levo because it's my reference.

Weird to me that I see reviewers saying the new even-faster Avinox charger takes less than 3 hours to fully charge the 800Wh battery. My Levo 4 takes less than 3 hours to charge its 840Wh battery, and I don't even own Specialized's fast charger! I don't personally value fast charging, but I don't understand how the Avinox isn't charging a lot faster.

My 800w with a fast charger gets it done in about 1:30-1:45 if memory serves. Definitely under 2.

 

[Powerslider]

@Rob Rides EMTB is there any way you can tell us if the connections for the M2s and m1 to the battery are the same? I bought my wife the xs pivot with the new motor but she is much more of a casual rider than me. Considering swapping my M1 crestline motor for hers If all fits

Sounds like you have everything in hand to tell us yourself.

 

[Petrex]

@Powerslider
Amflow PX
0-100% Fast Charge 1Hr:46m
0–80% Fast Charge 1Hr:16m