Velduro Rogue 170/165 mullet Enduro with DJI

[Astro66]

Is invisiframe/ridewrap worth it?
Do we know when they will be available for the rouge in nz?
Expecting my rogue in a month and thinking of wrapping it straight away

Wrapping it before riding is the best way to go, IMO. Invisiframe is available in large only. They ship worldwide.

I've bought rolls of Ride Wrap and just cut roughly to shape and wrapped chain and seatstays. Top and sides of top tube, and sides and bottom of downtube. If the bike is a gloss colour. It still looks great.

 

[electricbogaloo]

yes, put a 600wh battery in for weight reasons and then install the 250wh bosch range extender to increase range

I switch between 500 and 700 wh battery in the levo and the bike handles much better with the smaller battery. They are the same length but the smaller one being 800-900g lighter also lowers center of gravity.

As ebikes ride more planted anyway I dont really see the need for complicated suspension designs. They just add weight and drag.

 

[zizajaun]

Dont forget about fast charging options too. Here's a ride i did the other day. I swapped my 600wh hour for 400hw (bosch gen 5) mid ride and kept blasting. The my boy on the dji slapped his on fast charge and punted the battery back over a lunch break and we kept on riding.

I'll be honest the fast charge option is a pretty good substitute for a battery swap.

It is worth noting that shimano charges pretty fast too.

Side note. i personally dont like range extenders. You might as well be riding a bike with a bigger battery,,,,, and it takes up the drink bottle slot. I much prefer to run the drink bottle on the bike so i say no to range extenders.

View attachment 172449

Yes, that's why I've put a deposit down on the Velduro. I would only get a bike with either a fast charger (i.e. Avinox or Levo) or hot-swappable batteries (Levo and some Bosch/Shimano/etc bikes), ideally both. As I do a lot of bike park/enduro riding, I want the option of a greater assistance ratio than the Bosch provides, so Avinox and Levo are basically the only options I'm aware of among the leading eMTB motors. (Bafang, CYC, and a few other give even more power but general performance is worse.)

I just built a battery for my DIY ebike using P50B cells and a JBD BMS that can charge up to 50A. My charger only goes up to 20A, but I can still get a full charge in about half an hour, which is better than any others on the market, including Avinox's 12A. I don't see any reason factory ebikes can't use better cells/BMS to allow charging at 20-50 amps, and ideally higher voltage as well. There is some trade-off with energy density (high-power cells have lower capacity than low-power cells), but the difference isn't huge.

If it were cheaper, I might get a Levo 4 S-Works frameset, as it has the most flexibility: small and large quick-swap and quick-charge batteries; multiple geo adjustments; aftermarket link to boost rear travel to 170; option of high-ratio 'shuttle mode', etc. Apparently they're getting a power boost from a software update soon, which would make it even better.

 

[Plummet]

Yes, that's why I've put a deposit down on the Velduro. I would only get a bike with either a fast charger (i.e. Avinox or Levo) or hot-swappable batteries (Levo and some Bosch/Shimano/etc bikes), ideally both. As I do a lot of bike park/enduro riding, I want the option of a greater assistance ratio than the Bosch provides, so Avinox and Levo are basically the only options I'm aware of among the leading eMTB motors. (Bafang, CYC, and a few other give even more power but general performance is worse.)

I just built a battery for my DIY ebike using P50B cells and a JBD BMS that can charge up to 50A. My charger only goes up to 20A, but I can still get a full charge in about half an hour, which is better than any others on the market, including Avinox's 12A. I don't see any reason factory ebikes can't use better cells/BMS to allow charging at 20-50 amps, and ideally higher voltage as well. There is some trade-off with energy density (high-power cells have lower capacity than low-power cells), but the difference isn't huge.

If it were cheaper, I might get a Levo 4 S-Works frameset, as it has the most flexibility: small and large quick-swap and quick-charge batteries. There is even an aftermarket link to boost rear travel to 170.

Have you tried gen 5 100nm bosch?
Its not miles away from dji power.

 

[Mikects]

Big downside with Bosch here in NZ is their max 32kph cutout. DJI and Shimano both do 45kph which is legal here.

 

[Plummet]

Your Crestline in that size has a FC:RC ratio of 1.8 which is bang on. I agree with @ntm95 comments about FC:RC on bigger bikes being whack, and I prefer the cornering traits of smaller bikes mainly because of more balanced front to rear ratios. As an example, on my Crestline RS181, it has a CS of 460, front centre of 855 - giving a FC:RC of 1.85.

That bike is a tiny bit too small for me, I can feel the front wheel want to tuck in occasionally, but the weight balance is one of the best I've had in ages.

On the other hand my demo Trek Rail in XL has a ratio of something like 1.95, massively rear wheel biased. Its long and in a straight line is great, but cornering is so much more of a challenge.

I wonder how battery weight affects your fcrc ratios.

All I can say is when I chop down battery size i feel the performance chance acutely. The bikes become more playfull and enjoyable. Plus my enduro race times drop by up to 10 seconds per lap. So im faster when rocking a smaller battery.

 

[zizajaun]

Have you tried gen 5 100nm bosch?
Its not miles away from dji power.

I've only ridden a Gen 5 Bosch before the update, and that was just a day's rental of a Whyte Kado S. The stock Turbo mode seemed more than enough at the time, but I was at Forest of Dean where the climbs were fairly short. It was also my only experience with a factory ebike, so I don't have much to compare it to. At places like Bike Park Wales or Cwmcarn/Risca, there is a 2-5km climb to the top of the DH tracks, so I want to get up there as fast as possible and with the least effort possible, so I can get more laps in a day without getting too tired. I'm not sure whether even the 100nm Bosch would be suitable for that.

For comparison, I'm currently using a CYC X1 Stealth with 52W batteries on a Geometron G1. When lapping bike parks, I'm redlining it at 1500-2000W every climb, and sometimes I still want more. (For normal XC/trail riding, like trail centre loops, I typically set a limit of 100-300W so I can get some exercise.)

Avinox is also easier and cheaper to derestrict (and re-restrict if needed) than Bosch.

I'm kind of tempted by the Nicolai S16 MGU, but again, the max assistance ratio is only 4x (plus it's only 85nm and 600w).

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

Have you tried gen 5 100nm bosch?
Its not miles away from dji power.

Absolutely no chance a Bosch bike is keeping up with DJI on a medium to long climb.
Low down the Bosch is great. On smaller punchier climbs / trail features and technical climbing, its closer. But anything long, like a fireroad climb, the DJI annihilates the Bosch.

 

[zizajaun]

Absolutely no chance a Bosch bike is keeping up with DJI on a medium to long climb.
Low down the Bosch is great. On smaller punchier climbs / trail features and technical climbing, its closer. But anything long, like a fireroad climb, the DJI annihilates the Bosch.

How does the Pinion MGU compare in terms of motor performance? And how does the Nicolai S16 MGU compare to the Velduro in terms of handling/ride feel, especially on enduro tracks? You're probably one of the few people who has ridden both.

 

[Plummet]

Absolutely no chance a Bosch bike is keeping up with DJI on a medium to long climb.
Low down the Bosch is great. On smaller punchier climbs / trail features and technical climbing, its closer. But anything long, like a fireroad climb, the DJI annihilates the Bosch.

But its also annihilating that batttery at the same time. So when you do a full battery burn ride with dji and bosch and shimano and any other type for that matter you all end up riding at the same speed up those fire roads to conserve battery. If not, Dji guy has to ride out sooner or walk out when his battery is flat.

When it comes to motor power I care little about fire road speeds and more about technical climbing. In that regard, excluding the 120nm extra boost mode dji and 100nm bosch very close.

 

[Mikects]

Making eMTB boutique: An afternoon on the Velduro Rogue - Canadian Cycling Magazine

Taking the DJI-powered New Zealand frame out for a very soupy spin

cyclingmagazine.ca

 

[Plummet]

Big downside with Bosch here in NZ is their max 32kph cutout. DJI and Shimano both do 45kph which is legal here.

45kph limit has two big disadvantages for me.
1) it keeps assisting when you dont need it, therefore you burn more battery than needed and decrease range.
2) it keeps assisting and I get less of a workout.

I personally don't want to do a workoutless ride. I want to go a bit faster up the hills to get more laps in. But I also want to retain fitness. 32kph taps out then you engage more legs an lungs. Its a good compromise between assitance up hills and extending range. The reality is you don't NEED that extra speed unless you have a real heavy e bike that's a dog above 32kph.

For my style, i prefer 32kph. With that said. having 45kph on boost/turbo mode only would be cool. Then you could get the workout and less battery burn in lower modes and go full bannana in boost/turbo mode.

 

[losgatosgtr]

Apologize if this has been stated before in this thread, but I do not see the FC:RC ratio on the medium and large rogue frame. Does anyone have that calculation already done? Thanks

 

[cozzy]

Apologize if this has been stated before in this thread, but I do not see the FC:RC ratio on the medium and large rogue frame. Does anyone have that calculation already done? Thanks

Based on current known information with a 170mm fork I calculated FC
M 815mm
L 839mm

 

[zizajaun]

Apologize if this has been stated before in this thread, but I do not see the FC:RC ratio on the medium and large rogue frame. Does anyone have that calculation already done? Thanks

subtract the rear-centre from the wheelbase to get the front-centre, then divide it by the rear-centre; i don't have the wb figures in front of me

 

[zizajaun]

Based on current known information with a 170mm fork I calculated FC
M 815mm
L 839mm

If so, then with a 437 RC, the ratio is:
M: 1.87
L: 1.92

With a 447 RC:
M: 1.82
L: 1.88

 

[losgatosgtr]

Based on current known information with a 170mm fork I calculated FC
M 815mm
L 839mm

Thanks I just saw your post I’ll delete my recent edit.

 

[ntm95]

I wonder how battery weight affects your fcrc ratios.

All I can say is when I chop down battery size i feel the performance chance acutely. The bikes become more playfull and enjoyable. Plus my enduro race times drop by up to 10 seconds per lap. So im faster when rocking a smaller battery.

I can't quite put my finger on it, but there's something going on with f/r ratios beyond the static weight distribution. I suspect it's something to do with a leverage component, and interaction with other facets of the geometry.
I do not note any difference on front wheel grip with the battery in or out.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

If anyone is wondering more about FC:RC, this is a great 15 minute explainer. Old, but absolutely valid.

 

[losgatosgtr]

Based on current known information with a 170mm fork I calculated FC
M 815mm
L 839mm

These are static correct? It would be very interesting to see what the ratio is “at sag” since we have now heard from Velduro that there are no plans to increase the CS length on the frames as of yet.

 

[losgatosgtr]

If anyone is wondering more about FC:RC, this is a great 15 minute explainer. Old, but absolutely valid.

I literally just watched this about 10 minutes ago…lol.

It is kind of dated but still relevant.

 

[losgatosgtr]

Seems the medium frame would be the more “balanced “bike is this correct? How does varying fork travel from 170 to 180 mm affect this ratio?

Just FYI, the other day I rode my buddies Kenevo expert in S4 with a 175 mm travel podium upfront and it felt fantastic compared to my S3 Kenevo with the 180 mm Avalanche tuned hybrid coil damper RS Boxxer. I felt like I was riding faster than my typical lap when I am riding solo. Wondering if I was riding with extra motivation since I was riding with my buddy, taking more risks and riding faster than I would normally ride or was it because of the S4 size bike or was it the Podium producing more front end grip?

I’m really confused about bike sizing now I apologize.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

Seems the medium frame would be the more “balanced “bike is this correct? How does varying fork travel from 170 to 180 mm affect this ratio?

Typically a longer fork increases the front centre slightly. Only a small amount, roughly 3-5mm on a 63.5 degree bike.

 

[sethimus]

Seems the medium frame would be the more “balanced “bike is this correct? How does varying fork travel from 170 to 180 mm affect this ratio?

play around on bike-stats - everything about bike geometry i uploaded the current geometry

 

[losgatosgtr]

play around on bike-stats - everything about bike geometry i uploaded the current geometry

Thanks I am just starting to look at the web site now. Very interesting I must say.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

Just FYI, the other day I rode my buddies Kenevo expert in S4 with a 175 mm travel podium upfront and it felt fantastic compared to my S3 Kenevo with the 180 mm Avalanche tuned hybrid coil damper RS Boxxer. I felt like I was riding faster than my typical lap when I am riding solo. Wondering if I was riding with extra motivation since I was riding with my buddy, taking more risks and riding faster than I would normally ride or was it because of the S4 size bike or was it the Podium producing more front end grip?

Lots in it. Like you say sometimes you are just feeling *on fire* and a riding god, other days just not clicking...

It could be a ton of things, tyres, fork, shock, bar height, stem length... all of which contribute. You could have just landed on a setup that really worked for you when you borroed his bike.

On your bike you've reduced the reach, increased stack and the front centre. All small amounts, but could have made it slightly worse (or better) for the way you fit on that bike.

 

[Plummet]

I can't quite put my finger on it, but there's something going on with f/r ratios beyond the static weight distribution. I suspect it's something to do with a leverage component, and interaction with other facets of the geometry.
I do not note any difference on front wheel grip with the battery in or out.

I think if ya front wheel stayed on the ground the whole time and you didn't hit drops and jumps and manual through stuff or pop to hip into a a trail feature then front bias battery weight wouldnt matter. Wheels on the ground ploughing, run as bigger battery as you can and for that matter as longer rear center as you want.

But as soon as you ride dynamically and get into the air, manual, flick the bike around agressively then that heavy battery at the front is noticeable. I think thats the main difference for me. The heavier the bike and the heavier the front end the worse it the e bike performs for that aggressive and or playful style.

 

[losgatosgtr]

Lots in it. Like you say sometimes you are just feeling *on fire* and a riding god, other days just not clicking...

It could be a ton of things, tyres, fork, shock, bar height, stem length... all of which contribute. You could have just landed on a setup that really worked for you when you borroed his bike.

On your bike you've reduced the reach, increased stack and the front centre. All small amounts, but could have made it slightly worse (or better) for the way you fit on that bike.

You’re right, I think his Kenevo expert deserves another ride and more analysis of the difference in spec between my S3 and his S4. I think we are the same wheel size front and rear at 27.5. I did have mine set up for about six months as a full 29, but I just found it to unwieldy and ended up breaking a bone in my wrist in a bonehead wreck where I held onto the bars all the way into the ground, so I went back to 27.5.

 

[ntm95]

I think if ya front wheel stayed on the ground the whole time and you didn't hit drops and jumps and manual through stuff or pop to hip into a a trail feature then front bias battery weight wouldnt matter. Wheels on the ground ploughing, run as bigger battery as you can and for that matter as longer rear center as you want.

But as soon as you ride dynamically and get into the air, manual, flick the bike around agressively then that heavy battery at the front is noticeable. I think thats the main difference for me. The heavier the bike and the heavier the front end the worse it the e bike performs for that aggressive and or playful style.

I find it very noticeable when riding slower tech, or jibbing around. But that's not the kind of riding that requires pointed "performance" oriented geo either. Like I said, I do prefer a lighter battery overall, all other things being equal.
I'm just not sure battery weight effects front wheel traction too much, certainly not as noticeably as a different f/r ratio does.

As far as the type of riding I use as a metric for these observations, I'd like to think that if you combined Chuck Norris with Amaury Pierron, fed that individual a dozen red bulls, kicked them in the nuts, and turned them loose on some fast bc double blacks, that individual would ride a lot like me.
They'd probably still be a little slower though.

In all seriousness, I'm your typical western AB/Eastern BC intermediate. Usually in the upper ranks for minor enduros and strava segments. Just like NZ, lots of talented riders around here, I'm never going pro .
Test trails are generally the faster black/double black stuff at sunpeaks, valemount, silverstar and whistler areas. Focus on corner speeds.

 

[Alex NZ]

Hi all, just wanting to get others’ thoughts or experiences with Velduro’s ordering process and pricing for this first batch of frames in NZ.

I’ve been messaging consistently asking for an invoice to pay the rest of the frame only cost since mid November. And after seeing mediums had already been sent to customers, I followed up again and Just got my invoice yesterday. First, they want to charge me freight to send to a NZ distributor of velduro. Secondly, I’ve requested a fast charger and they want to charge $790 NZD for the fast charger which seems steep to me? It seems to be worth approximately $500 NZD in other countries and it’s an upgrade relative to the base charger so thought it may be offset by the cost of the slower charger (as I wouldn’t need/get two chargers). Been waiting some time and feel customer service has not been ideal. Further, this has been after having to buy a new shock because the vivid I bought didn’t fit, despite being advertised on the website and China expo as the shock that goes with the bike.

What are others thoughts on this? Does the freight charge and charger cost seem reasonable to others? I am a big fan of NZ company and love the idea of the bike, just feeling I’ve got the brunt of a lot of teething issues!