panaphonic
Member
This was my thinking also. Going to run a coil in pro mode straight away.
Velduro Rogue 170/165 mullet Enduro with DJI
- Thread starter Nomadic Dad
- Start date
Durrti
Active member
Very possible! Trying to find a deal on an E-storia. Will keep you posted when I do.
losgatosgtr
Well-known member
What shocks have you ridden to help us with a comparison?
Plummet
Flash Git
Coil shocks In my garage on bikes right now is suspension tech, push 11-6, Ext arma, marzocchi bomber CR, Fox DHX2.
Slim downtube FTW!
Bogdan_CH
Active member
Would be Intersting to pit this bike against the new Norco Range. They seem fairly similar in Geo & suspension layout.
Watched Rob's video. When he was bouncing the rear shock. He did a longer shot where you could see the rear cassette. That cassette was rotating forward, whist the brake rotor on the other side was still .
This means the hub is absorbing any pedal kick with some free play. If it was a high engagement hub. The chain wheel would be rotating back, instead of the hub rotating forward.
I'd be interested in the points of engagement of that hub.
This means the hub is absorbing any pedal kick with some free play. If it was a high engagement hub. The chain wheel would be rotating back, instead of the hub rotating forward.
I'd be interested in the points of engagement of that hub.
rabitec
New Member
I agree - when I tested the Rogue 6 weeks ago, I did the same test as Rob but I moved the freewheel to engagement point and put weigth onto the pedal. There was some kickback. Lower than many other bikes but not "kickback free".
Would I notice that? All I know is that the bike rear suspension felt incredibly sensitive, compared to the other bikes I own and ride regularly (Yeti SB6 and Orbea Rise). I liked it so much I bought one
slickrock
Well-known member
While not an exhaustive review, and probably for the wiser, considering Rob would have a better time on an XL, It does showcase that rear suspension quite well, which, for me, has been the attraction since the beginning. There are i-track players, such as Norco and possibly now Teewing (unconfirmed), but the implementation of it is fairly flexible, so what you get out of it will likely differ between models/brands. For those who are in the S/M ranks, I don't see much downside here, especially if you are in the Avinox camp (Rob sure seems to be). The cat is out of the bag for the longer chainstays for L/XL sometime in Q1, so patience will be rewarded (and with possibly an updated motor as well), though the season is well underway down under.
The other thing: if primarily offering frames (instead of full bikes) is the shape of things come, especially for these more independant brands of which Avinox has attracted, then how the bike is outfitted for review will more affect the review itself. Bigger bike brands really work on the curation of the bike build and reach into deep discounts on componentry at volume, and as such really want the whole curated bike evaluated on review. These smaller companies don't have this luxury, so perhaps doing the frame play makes more sense. But it does invite more scrutiny, as component selection is now our responsibility, our curation. And the way Rob likes to show off his builds with bling componentry, I think he, and perhaps, we, are perfectly Ok with that.
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sethimus
😠 Donald Duck 😠
for a late march delivery they would need to ship the frames in january. i don’t think that they will come with the longer cs, else they would tell potential customers that? got the same answer from swiss distributor too…
electricbogaloo
Active member
That's a technical misconception. The main reason for the bulky downtubes are removable batteries optimized for a low center of gravity. If you optimize for looks you want a long, thin battery but it will compromise center of gravity. But you can mitigate that by making it non quick removable. It's basically tradeoffs. I prefer a design like the gen3 levo with a turned motor so that the battery can slide out at the bottom at the downtubes which will allow for low weight and low center of gravity and quickly removable batteries of different sizes and lower center of gravity (with a smaller battery). For me it's function over form.
With the smaller motors the turned motor would also look not as bad as in the levo gen3.
The smaller motor might allow more space for certain suspension setups (HP, VPP, etc). But I agree with you about the batteries: low and central weight is important for handling, and I'm happy to accept a less pretty bike for improved performance. Perhaps the best in this regard (but also the ugliest) is the Lapierre Overvolt GLP III. But Whyte have also done a fairly good job with the Kado and Elyte, using standard Bosch batteries, and maybe the Levo 3/4 as well. I really wish more motor manufacturers would allow the use of third party batteries, so they could be packaged better on each frame. That's my main hesitation about buying an Avinox: the 800 Wh battery puts too much weight near the head tube.
sethimus
😠 Donald Duck 😠
yes, put a 600wh battery in for weight reasons and then install the 250wh bosch range extender to increase range 
Not sure if that's a response to me, but the Elyte 150 and Elyte EVO use 400wh internal batteries plus a range extender right above the BB. That gives a lower COG than using the longer 600/800wh Bosch batteries. They also rotate the motor to allow the battery to drop as far as possible. Reviews suggest the handling is indeed better as a result. But even 650wh isn't enough for me, unless the internal battery can easily be swapped out (which it can't on these models), and I want more than 142mm rear travel.yes, put a 600wh battery in for weight reasons and then install the 250wh bosch range extender to increase range
As I say, if Bosch, Avinox, etc allowed third party batteries then bike manufacturers could build bikes that actually optimised for performance (or whatever criteria they wanted to optimise). And if they sold motors directly to end-users or small frame builders, we could also get frames custom made to our requirements. But all the major EMTB motor manufacturers (with the exception of Bafang and to some extent Shimano) tie you into their ecosystem of proprietary parts, and won't even let you use those parts unless you're a big company with a big contract.
sethimus
😠 Donald Duck 😠
who says they don’t? rotwild uses a custom battery in theirs
Fair enough. I guess most companies don't have the in-house expertise to develop their own, or they like the aesthetics with the Avinox battery.
Filth_88
New Member
That’s exactly what I got from the NZ team; no changes to L/XL in first batches.
Plummet
Flash Git
Dont forget about fast charging options too. Here's a ride i did the other day. I swapped my 600wh hour for 400hw (bosch gen 5) mid ride and kept blasting. The my boy on the dji slapped his on fast charge and punted the battery back over a lunch break and we kept on riding.
I'll be honest the fast charge option is a pretty good substitute for a battery swap.
It is worth noting that shimano charges pretty fast too.
Side note. i personally dont like range extenders. You might as well be riding a bike with a bigger battery,,,,, and it takes up the drink bottle slot. I much prefer to run the drink bottle on the bike so i say no to range extenders.
JP-NZ
E*POWAH Elite World Champion
I just saw a new post on the Velduro FB page where an American flew all the way to NZ to pickup two launch Rouge's and will fly them back to the USA.
Incredible dedication.
Incredible dedication.
Plummet
Flash Git
Can'r put the batteries on a plane though. I wonder how he's gotten over those logistical challenges. Getting batteries in and out of NZ is a freaken royal pain in the arse.
slickrock
Well-known member
That's reaching cult status. There are better ways to get this bike into the US if so inclined.
JP-NZ
E*POWAH Elite World Champion
I'd imagine Velduro have battery shipping sorted considering their aims to distrbute internationally.
Lots of it has to do with terrain and average speeds too.
As far as battery weights go, it is not untrue that they help the weight bias, but I don't think it's as significant as it might appear at first look. Certainly, I do not notice any dramatic differences between my crafty (465mm chainstay) with the battery in or out, in corners. Perhaps on corner initiation, but that's just a PMI thing from mass reduction up higher in the frame.
There is a much more noticeable difference in bikes that simply have different f/r ratios.
I had a mullet claymore (high pivot, 435mm chainstay), and currently have a dreadnought v2 (high pivot, 460mm chainstay). They have very different performance thresholds. Not much difference in the tighter, slow stuff, but if its loose/fast off camber, the dreadnought makes a significant amount more traction without too much effort. I had to ride the front end of the claymore like a dang unicycle to even approach the dreadnought's basic corner speeds.
I've spent some time on a slash+ (short chainstay, high pivot), and it handled similarly to the claymore mx. Battery weight didn't do it any favours, besides the usual effect of calming the suspension. The long chainstay crafty eats it's lunch most places.
I'm pretty disappointed they didn't do a longer chainstay with the rogue, but in fairness, the bike as is will work really well in NZ, AZ, etc. I'll continue to ride my crafty with what looks like a 4"x4" fence post for a down tube until something better comes along (like an e-dreadnought...). This could have been it though, a pity.
I'm pretty curious about Rob's nicolai s18, it looks quite good with the long chainstay option.
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I keep a 800wh EcoFlow in the car for my Avinox Battery. I always only recharge to 80%. But if the boys are planning a longer ride. I add the 20% extra on the drive to the Bike Park.
It also helps when you forget to recharge, because I've been riding during the week on local trails. Just top up on the drive over. Something I just couldn't do with my Shimano EP801. I could barely get 10% extra on the drive over.
The only time I've wished for a range extender is on a 70km, 1806 vertical metre adventure ride. But I just set the assist to OFF on the flats, and let the meats do some extra work. And this is not my usual riding. And certainly not where I'd use an Enduro EMTB.
Plummet
Flash Git
I'm assuming that you are also a tall dude. I too have a claymore, medium, and don't have the issues you describe. It tracks quite freaken nicely frome and i don't have to ride the front. My personal optimal chainstay is 445mm non-high pivot so sagged claymore is good for me.
My personal style involves manualling quite often, particularly through rollers and depressions. On extended rollers that you can't quite jump the manual is my tool of choice. If the chain stay is too long and or the battery is too heavy then extended manuals are impossible to achieve. So I am more sensative to longer chain stays and heavier batteries than others that don't often manual in their standard style. Those long stays and heavy batteries kills that part of my riding style off quickly.
I had that problem with the Pole Voima. 455 chain stay and 750wh battery. The forward weight was terrible for manualling. I could hold it up for 3-5 meters maybe with a big preload and pull but the front would drop now matter how hard or deep i leaded back. It right royally pissed me off.
That front weight bias of a 750/800wh battery is the exact reason i went to 400wh and 600wh batteries. The 400wh is just so playful and enjoyable, the 600hw the front bias is workable, but i feel the extra weight. I really dont want to go back to the weight of a 750/800wh at the front. I'll take a smaller battery and less range over worse front weight bias.
PS I'm 5'11 and generally ride a size smaller than recommended for me as I prefer the more responsive, playful bike.
ebikerider
Well-known member
But then you would miss the chance of being in NZ…great place.
I'm 6' with a 34" inseam and long arms to match.
I've a theory that back when sizing down was the fad, that folks were doing so partially for the better f/r ratios offered by smaller bikes, since few manufacturers sized large and xl bike's chainstay lengths appropriately. Mediums were typically the design anchors, and chainstay length was shared across the sizes.
Case in point, your claymore mx in medium has a similar f/r ratio to my large crafty, or a large dreadnought v2 with the 450mm dropouts (1.83). The large claymore has a f/r of 1.91, and in my experience anything around 1.9 is hot garbage in loose conditions at speed.
No denying that a longer, heavier bike is harder to manual.
But with the voima, that's worst case scenario. They have a silly long front center, longer reach, and a f/r in medium of 1.9 (1.8-1.83 is a pretty standard design target). And a wheelbase of 1310+mm. That's a recipe for a plow that doesn't move around very well, and is tough to ride well.
For comparisons sake, the same chainstay length on a large dreadnought v2 equates a wheelbase of 1270mm, with a f/r of 1.83. Which I can manual just as easily as any 435mm chainstay bike. But the d2 handles speed better.
My large crafty is 1320mm of wheelbase with a 465mm chainstay, 1.84 f/r. It's too big for me, an m/l size would have been more appropriate. It is tough to manual spontaneously, but doable. It is still "playful", but requires higher speeds to get there.
Don't use the Voima as an indicator on the long chainstay thing. It's geometry is terrible as an e-bike, and would have been equally terrible in an acoustic format without the battery weight.
Plummet
Flash Git
Yeah, I agree voima geo was wack. I tried it, but ultimately it wasnt for me.
I have 3 bikes.
Claymore high pivot 170/18omm 435 cs, 460 reach
Crestline s180 vpp 445cs 455 reach 180/180mm
Trek session mid pivot 445 cs 465 reach. 200/200mm
All 3 are awesome for different reasons. The 445 cs 460ish reach sizing is my optimal set up.
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Your Crestline in that size has a FC:RC ratio of 1.8 which is bang on. I agree with @ntm95 comments about FC:RC on bigger bikes being whack, and I prefer the cornering traits of smaller bikes mainly because of more balanced front to rear ratios. As an example, on my Crestline RS181, it has a CS of 460, front centre of 855 - giving a FC:RC of 1.85.
That bike is a tiny bit too small for me, I can feel the front wheel want to tuck in occasionally, but the weight balance is one of the best I've had in ages.
On the other hand my demo Trek Rail in XL has a ratio of something like 1.95, massively rear wheel biased. Its long and in a straight line is great, but cornering is so much more of a challenge.
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