Hybridizer Sann Bafang M500 series Aluminum FS

[leandrolopesramos]

Finally!!!
My Hybridizer has arrived.
Now I have to wait for some other parts to assemble it.
I believe mine is the first one in Brazil.

 

[ATXZJ]

Finally!!!
My Hybridizer has arrived.
Now I have to wait for some other parts to assemble it.
I believe mine is the first one in Brazil.

View attachment 162222

Looks good man! What size frame?

 

[leandrolopesramos]

Looks good man! What size frame?

Small Size...was the only option available.

 

[ATXZJ]

Small Size...was the only option available.

Bought my wife the same color/size. Need a shock for it?

 

[Tjhell]

Small Size...was the only option available.

Just curious how tall you are. I have an L and I’m 186cm (6’1 ish) and the bike is a little bit too small for me. An XL would have been perfect if they made one.

 

[Tomblarom]

Yes it's a little bit disappointing, that they made no XL version. I'm also 193cm and have to stick with the "biggest" L version.

 

[leandrolopesramos]

Just curious how tall you are. I have an L and I’m 186cm (6’1 ish) and the bike is a little bit too small for me. An XL would have been perfect if they made one.

ahahahaha BIG MAN I AM!!! ahahahaha
Just 169cm...

 

[leandrolopesramos]

Bought my wife the same color/size. Need a shock for it?

I bought a rockshox delux ultimate air. I'm waiting for it to arrive. In the future, I'll install a DVO COIL

 

[leandrolopesramos]

Yes it's a little bit disappointing, that they made no XL version. I'm also 193cm and have to stick with the "biggest" L version.

I compared it with my CANYON STRIVE CF size M. They are exactly the same size. The geometry changes, but the size is the same. I believe that is why there is no M and XL in SANN.

 

[ATXZJ]

Anyone getting contacted by Hybridizer trying to unload the Randos? I asked if they had any size L Sanns and he said they are out of all frames with the exception of size small in green. I asked why they are out and he said demand is higher then their manufacturing capacity. Also said "This situation could continue for a period of time". Then kept trying to persuade me to buy a Rando.

I get the feeling, things might not be going well.

 

[Tjhell]

Well, if anyone has had anywhere near the problems I’ve had with my SANN I’m not surprised if they are going out of business. I’m in a neighbouring Asian country and quite quick and cheap to warranty service but if customers in the US or EU are having a lot of problems it starts getting very expensive very quickly.

 

[leandrolopesramos]

Anyone getting contacted by Hybridizer trying to unload the Randos? I asked if they had any size L Sanns and he said they are out of all frames with the exception of size small in green. I asked why they are out and he said demand is higher then their manufacturing capacity. Also said "This situation could continue for a period of time". Then kept trying to persuade me to buy a Rando.

I get the feeling, things might not be going well.

Honestly, I didn't go. I think it's because they don't ship to Brazil. I had to buy it through Alibaba.

 

[leandrolopesramos]

Let me share something interesting. While I wait for the shock to arrive so I can finish my build, I put a protector on it using an old 44T Truvativ. I removed the teeth, and it was perfect, strong and functional. I also bought a mudguard for Rockshox that works on the Marzocchi Z1. Just drill it in the correct layout. This avoids using the locking tapes.

 

[ATXZJ]

Update:

Heard back from one of the owners of Hybridizer, and they stated the investors are pushing for them to offer DJI motors on the Sann. They are leaning inventory out for the potential transition. If they offer with DJI, i'd definitely buy one.

 

[Tjhell]

Update:

Heard back from one of the owners of Hybridizer, and they stated the investors are pushing for them to offer DJI motors on the Sann. They are leaning inventory out for the potential transition. If they offer with DJI, i'd definitely buy one.

That would be great, but they need to get the shitty linkage sorted.

I’ve given up on my SANN, Amflow is on the way!

 

[ATXZJ]

That would be great, but they need to get the shitty linkage sorted.

I’ve given up on my SANN, Amflow is on the way!

Curious. What issues are you having with your linkage?

 

[Tjhell]

Curious. What issues are you having with your linkage?

I’m planning to do a full review of the entire SANN “experience” in a couple of weeks, it was supposed to be a 500km review, then 1000, but now it will be a farewell review at a little over 1500km due to all the problems.

Specifically about the linkage is the constant play between the linkage and the pivot.

My pivot and linkage bearings weren’t great from new (I suspect badly installed at manufacture/assembly and/or cheap bearings), I ended up changing the bearings at 130km, again at 500km and at 800km (changed to SKF). The pivot is also constantly loose, manual recommends retightening the pivot lock screws at 300km but I found it to be more like every 2-3 rides, so for me 50-80km. The linkage is on V3 I believe and after feedback to Hybridizer they kind of admitted the v3 still isn’t right and the manufacturing needs improvement. Then told me I can “buy a new linkage”.

By 800km when I had to do all the bearings again, I was able to install (albeit frozen) bearings by hand on one side. The tolerances are off and I’ve spoken to two other local SANN users and their bikes are the same.

To test it, you can hold the bike up by the seat and gently tap the back wheel on the ground. I get a fair bit of play/knocking. Over time this is just causing more damage to the frame.

To top it off the “bro” guy at Hybridizer said “Here you can adjust the torque according to the feel”, when I questioned the conflicting torque specs in the manual and that the designated torque doesn’t reduce the play.

 

[ATXZJ]

I’m planning to do a full review of the entire SANN “experience” in a couple of weeks, it was supposed to be a 500km review, then 1000, but now it will be a farewell review at a little over 1500km due to all the problems.

Specifically about the linkage is the constant play between the linkage and the pivot.

My pivot and linkage bearings weren’t great from new (I suspect badly installed at manufacture/assembly and/or cheap bearings), I ended up changing the bearings at 130km, again at 500km and at 800km (changed to SKF). The pivot is also constantly loose, manual recommends retightening the pivot lock screws at 300km but I found it to be more like every 2-3 rides, so for me 50-80km. The linkage is on V3 I believe and after feedback to Hybridizer they kind of admitted the v3 still isn’t right and the manufacturing needs improvement. Then told me I can “buy a new linkage”.

By 800km when I had to do all the bearings again, I was able to install (albeit frozen) bearings by hand on one side. The tolerances are off and I’ve spoken to two other local SANN users and their bikes are the same.

To test it, you can hold the bike up by the seat and gently tap the back wheel on the ground. I get a fair bit of play/knocking. Over time this is just causing more damage to the frame.

To top it off the “bro” guy at Hybridizer said “Here you can adjust the torque according to the feel”, when I questioned the conflicting torque specs in the manual and that the designated torque doesn’t reduce the play.

Hmm. Wife is easy on the bike but im 89 kilos kitted, and beat the living h*ll out of the bike on high speed, rocky downhill trails. No issues with bearings or linkages coming loose so far. I do have a similar knocking, that I attributed to the shock. Which I think it is. Although I'll have to look again.

The "bro" guy is super annoying. Google translate is not the best idea for their method of communication. They need to stay away from any and all communications.

 

[Tjhell]

Hmm. Wife is easy on the bike but im 89 kilos kitted, and beat the living h*ll out of the bike on high speed, rocky downhill trails. No issues with bearings or linkages coming loose so far. I do have a similar knocking, that I attributed to the shock. Which I think it is. Although I'll have to look again.

The "bro" guy is super annoying. Google translate is not the best idea for their method of communication. They need to stay away from any and all communications.

We are about the same weight and similar style by the sounds of it. I’ll bet my left testicle the knocking is the linkage/pivot.

BTW, the only reason I know the bearings are done is by taking the linkage and rear triangle off and they are “notchy” which indicates high load. I don’t think it’s a bearing issue as it’s the same with both original and replacement SKF, I think it’s a combo of the high pivot design loading the pivot points and poor manufacturing tolerance or materials on the linkage.

You don’t notice the knocking while riding but over time it will definitely cause ovalising of the bearing races, especially in that soft alloy frame.

For contrast I have a 2016 YT Capra (alloy) that is solid as a rock. I’ve changed the bearings in that once in 8 years and it’s done far many more km’s than my 7 month old SANN.

More on the bro guy in my farewell review coming soon

 

[ATXZJ]

The knocking i notice when riding is from the clutch on the bafang motor. Its super noisy and annoying. Especially for a HSP bike. My other high pivot rigs are almost silent.

 

[Tjhell]

The knocking i notice when riding is from the clutch on the bafang motor. Its super noisy and annoying. Especially for a HSP bike. My other high pivot rigs are almost silent.

That’s interesting. My M560 is solid and silent other than the normal motor noise when peddling. I’ve been very impressed with the motor.

 

[leandrolopesramos]

I have a question.
Why can I only get assistance if I have my APP connected to the bike?
If I leave without my phone, is that it?
I don't want to depend on the app. Is there a way to do this?

 

[Tjhell]

I have a question.
Why can I only get assistance if I have my APP connected to the bike?
If I leave without my phone, is that it?
I don't want to depend on the app. Is there a way to do this?

You only have to activate the bike once. Other than that I’d say the app is pretty useless.

I did have an issue with the 4E error (not activated) and had to reset Bluetooth in the app and Hybridizer had to clear me off their system, but other than that I did 1500km without needing to reactivate until I replaced the battery and had to do it again.

I peeled the sticker off when the bike was new and attached it to a piece of card because I figured the sticker would come off eventually.

I also keep a photo of it on my phone just in case I ever needed it, but I haven’t.

 

[leandrolopesramos]

You only have to activate the bike once. Other than that I’d say the app is pretty useless.

I did have an issue with the 4E error (not activated) and had to reset Bluetooth in the app and Hybridizer had to clear me off their system, but other than that I did 1500km without needing to reactivate until I replaced the battery and had to do it again.

I peeled the sticker off when the bike was new and attached it to a piece of card because I figured the sticker would come off eventually.

I also keep a photo of it on my phone just in case I ever needed it, but I haven’t.

Thank you.
In my case, it is already activated and paired. If I turn on the bike with the power button, no matter how long I wait, it does not provide assistance. When I open the app on my phone and it recognizes the bike that is already paired, it starts assisting and only after that can I turn off the phone.

 

[Tjhell]

Thank you.
In my case, it is already activated and paired. If I turn on the bike with the power button, no matter how long I wait, it does not provide assistance. When I open the app on my phone and it recognizes the bike that is already paired, it starts assisting and only after that can I turn off the phone.

That’s a weird behaviour. If you try and ride with no assistance does it give 4E error on the display?

I’d reset the Bluetooth in the app first annd reactivate the bike and if that doesn’t fix it, Hybridizer might need to reset you on their system.

I’d also give them feedback (like I have) that this system of activation is stupid. Relying on a sticker that is pasted to the inside of the chainstay where it gets wet and dirty constantly is a terrible idea. Surely if the bike has Bluetooth and the app has Bluetooth you should be able to just pair it like you would a wireless keyboard or mouse.

I worry that one day (soon) this company will go out of business and we will be left with zero support of a bespoke ecosystem and eventually will all end up putting Bafang displays on the bars and flashing to a standard firmware for the M560 to just be able to ride.

 

[leandrolopesramos]

That’s a weird behaviour. If you try and ride with no assistance does it give 4E error on the display?

I’d reset the Bluetooth in the app first annd reactivate the bike and if that doesn’t fix it, Hybridizer might need to reset you on their system.

I’d also give them feedback (like I have) that this system of activation is stupid. Relying on a sticker that is pasted to the inside of the chainstay where it gets wet and dirty constantly is a terrible idea. Surely if the bike has Bluetooth and the app has Bluetooth you should be able to just pair it like you would a wireless keyboard or mouse.

I worry that one day (soon) this company will go out of business and we will be left with zero support of a bespoke ecosystem and eventually will all end up putting Bafang displays on the bars and flashing to a standard firmware for the M560 to just be able to ride.

It's very cold here in Brazil. I hate the cold! I can't ride in the cold. I'll wait until the weekend and do this reset test.

For now, I'm waiting for some other parts to arrive.

I worry that one day (soon) this company will go out

I'm afraid of that too.

 

[Tomblarom]

hey all! Today I ripped apart my custom made battery, because the Nitecore cells were trash.. I had massive voltage drops and overall very bad range. Now I'm going to rebuild the pack a second time and found a way to make it 14S4P, instead of 13S3P..!

 

[Tjhell]

Hi all,

Some of you might have seen my posts moaning about the sloppy linkage on the SANN. Basically from day 2 my bike had lateral play in the linkage and I changed the bearings for higher quality ones and torqued to spec, nothing would get rid of the play. I’m not talking about a few microns of normal play, I’m talking that you can hear the linkage knocking if you de-weight the back wheel and pull it up.

The 2nd time I went to change the bearings, around 800km, I could insert one side of the bearing by hand. I reported this to Hybridizer who said I could “buy a new linkage”.

Not long after this my battery failed so I just made the decision to sell the frameset and move on. More about that in a full review of the SANN and Hybridizer experience coming soon.

Getting the frame ready for sale I stripped it down and unsurprisingly I saw the linkage had actually failed. Daylight split on one side and crack on the other side of the pivot where the flip chip goes.

After speaking to a dealer here in Thailand (he had 2 other linkages failing) and another moan to Hybridizer I got a new updated linkage replaced. Check the photos for the differences. I think this is now version 3 of the linkage so check your bikes for play, and my advice is to contact Hybridizer to get one replaced while they are still in business, because I hate to say it but I’m not sure how they will survive after all the issues I’ve had and if they do go bust it’s going to be a nightmare getting that part machined.

Cheers
Tom

 

[Tomblarom]

@Tjhell thanks for the insights. wow this very disappointing. Fingers crossed, this won't happen to my bike or at least they provide replacement by then..!

Can you list the bearing sizes that need to be bought and where they go? I consider replacing them as well, even though I havn't had any issues with play.

 

[Tjhell]

@Tjhell thanks for the insights. wow this very disappointing. Fingers crossed, this won't happen to my bike or at least they provide replacement by then..!

Can you list the bearing sizes that need to be bought and where they go? I consider replacing them as well, even though I havn't had any issues with play.

Sure thing. 3 parts of the linkage have bushings and the bearing part is 6901RS (x2)

I’d suggest checking and changing the pivot bearings too. I suspect mine were installed badly from the factory as they were notchy and failed at 130km and damaged the frame. Fortunately the damage isn’t visible. I put better bearings in and correctly, and they have lasted well. You need 6002RS (x2) for the SANN Pivot.

Also check 3200-2RS - SANN High Pivot jockey bearing. I noticed my drive train felt rough and was concerned it was the motor, but it turned out it’s the high pivot pulley/jockey bearing. The bearing wore out around 1200km, from about 700km I was taking the seal off and cleaning and regreasing it. It got rough pretty quickly though. The jockey teeth have worn badly on my bike as of 1700km, I’d suggest buying a spare one.

Cheers
Tom