How many motors have you blown? 2019 levo only

[Tedgar]

This is more likely to be the large drive pulley sprag clutch bearing, when it fails you can loose assistance from the motor, but also the little sprag teeth inside the bearing can temporarily jam in the bearing races. Either way it's time to get the spanners out or send it back for a new one.

That makes sense. We have a sprag clutch in the transmission of the helicopters I fly. Keeps the failed engine drive shaft from stopping the rotors in case of autorotaion. Hopefully they are made better since they cost several hundred thousand dollars.

 

[Mikerb]

Thanks. That must why it was mechanically locked when trying to roll backwards. The belt snapped in there. It did free up after some acoustic pedaling back home.

Is the worst scenario on a belt to be in high gear slow pedaling up a hill in turbo? Demanding most from the motor? Like my wife rides. LOL.

I ride at as little as 15% (my ECO) assist quite a bit. My turbo mode is set at 70%. I do ride fast and standing up a lot and spin past the assist speed on steeper downs. Do you think that is bad for the belt? Trying to figure out if my riding style has prematurely damaged the belt.

High gear slow pedalling in turbo is mostly just missing out on what boost the motor could give her. Unless the cadence is kept relatively high turbo mode especially does not give the same kick. In a high gear it is also putting more strain on the drivetrain.

 

[Tedgar]

High gear slow pedalling in turbo is mostly just missing out on what boost the motor could give her. Unless the cadence is kept relatively high turbo mode especially does not give the same kick. In a high gear it is also putting more strain on the drivetrain.

I have tried to tell her....ugh. I see the Levo as a means to go faster. She sees it as way to put in less effort. But at least she is not cussing at me the entire way up the mountain anymore!

 

[Mikerb]

I have tried to tell her....ugh. I see the Levo as a means to go faster. She sees it as way to put in less effort. But at least she is not cussing at me the entire way up the mountain anymore!

If you only ride trails change the indexing on her gears so she cannot select 2 or 3 of the highest gears!
I know what you mean though. My wife has a 1x12 Cube Access I tell her that unless we are on tarmac, ehich is rare, she should not use anything below the middle of the cassette. If I see her cadence is low I tell her to change down 2 gears. It is working!

 

[Roger20]

First, I would like to remind everyone that there are thousands of people out there, happily riding around on all sorts of bikes with Brose motors in them. Most main stream ebike motors are very well made and very good quality and they ALL have an Achilles heel. (well some have more Achilles heels than others!)

There are a few things we need to get our heads around first. The ebike market is huge, and most ebikes around the world are road/commuter bikes, not mountain bikes. Commuter bikes are the bikes that these motors were all originally designed for.
Also, Specialized DO NOT make the motor, nor do they have any say what so ever in how it's designed. Believe me when I tell you, Specialized work extremely hard putting all these concerns to Brose.

When the manufacturing industry began to fit ebike motors into Mountain bikes (and this is the same for all motor manufacturers) I honestly don't believe the motor manufacturers were prepared for the type of life their motors were going to be introduced to.
People with road bikes don't tend to pressure wash them, they don't tend to wash them very often full stop, they don't tend to ride them through deep puddles, rivers and streams, they don't ride for hundreds of miles along dusty fire trails, or suffer pedal strikes, etc. etc.
For example, I overhaul all sorts of different motors for many of the couriers who are out there doing 10,000 miles + a year on an ebike! These are only used on road and most are near perfect when I see them once out of warranty, normally after 20 to 30K.
So, back to the original question: There is no doubt Specialized have a relatively large following and although they are sublime bikes with outstanding handling and looks, part of their successes is down to the Brose motor.
A couple of years ago, everyone with a Bosch motor was upset because they were failing every 5 minutes due to water ingress! So, they heard about this extra quiet, good handling, nice looking bike with a Brose motor in it. No bad things could be read about this motor because Brose had not long been put into mountain bikes, so there were not really enough to start making headlines on the forums. So, disillusioned with Bosch, many started buying Specialized. Low and behold, motor failures started to happen!. And now it's really just a numbers game, people with Bosch motors have learnt to keep them dryer, special aftermarket seals and covers are available for the bearings and the new 2020 motors are getting there so complaints on forums are coming down.
The same will happen with Brose. Their new motor cases are now treated so they won't rot away, they have introduced a slightly stronger belt, the right hand crankshaft bearing now has a seal cover, the wiring plugs are better, the crankshaft bearings now have rubber seals on the inside, (although once water has entered the bearing its game over anyway? A rubber seal on the inside just increases the friction!).
Exactly the same thing has happened with Shimano, everyone said they are the best motor ever, never break down, water proof bla, bla! We get asked to repair more Shimano motors in relation to the numbers out there, than Brose even!
It's frustrating for us as customers, I get that, it's exactly why I started Performance Line Bearings in the first place! But for large corporations to change or bring out a new product, the effort is mind boggling. And to be fair, I am guessing most of you are pretty happy with the way you have been treated by Specialized because even though this motor is not their design, they take a lot of expense on the chin and generally bend over backwards to keep their customers happy.
Conclusion:
Most ebike motors are not water resistant.
Some ebike motors are better than others but I don't like to say which or why on an open forum.
Ride your bike and enjoy it.
If it's out of warranty, keep an eye on it and get it fixed at the first sign of trouble.
If the worst comes to the worst, we will do our best to get you going again without having to buy a new motor.

Hi @Bearing Man and apologies for the questions below!

I understand that the magnesium 2.1 motor was introduced in 2018 for the 2019 Turbo Levo

Just to be clear regarding the underlined part of your post "The same will happen with Brose. Their new motor cases are now treated so they won't rot away, they have introduced a slightly stronger belt, the right hand crankshaft bearing now has a seal cover, the wiring plugs are better" . When was this seal cover introduced? Has it been changed since the 2.1 motor was first available and if so can you identify it by just looking at the motor externally? Does it help with water ingress like the Mudstop for Bosch ?

Is there any way any additional external seals could be developed for the Brose 2.1 which might work like the Bosch Mudstop?

 

[Bearing Man]

Hi @Bearing Man and apologies for the questions below!

I understand that the magnesium 2.1 motor was introduced in 2018 for the 2019 Turbo Levo

Just to be clear regarding the underlined part of your post "The same will happen with Brose. Their new motor cases are now treated so they won't rot away, they have introduced a slightly stronger belt, the right hand crankshaft bearing now has a seal cover, the wiring plugs are better" . When was this seal cover introduced? Has it been changed since the 2.1 motor was first available and if so can you identify it by just looking at the motor externally? Does it help with water ingress like the Mudstop for Bosch ?

Is there any way any additional external seals could be developed for the Brose 2.1 which might work like the Bosch Mudstop?

The Brose right hand crankshaft bearing cover seal was introduced on the 1.3, the earlier motors didn't have this part.
To be honest, this seal coupled with the internal seal upgrade work well, but like the Bosch motor, there is still no fix for the left-hand bearing.
Hopefully, like we have for the Bosch motors, we will make or come across a solution and implement it.
The real problem with Brose motors, there's just not enough of them in the market place to warrant large investment. Having special parts designed and manufactured is not cheap. We have just spent thousands having the crankshaft bearings manufactured and the numbers we have to buy means they will be on the shelves for 18 months at least!

 

[Roger20]

The Brose right hand crankshaft bearing cover seal was introduced on the 2.1, the earlier motors didn't have this part.
To be honest, this seal coupled with the internal seal upgrade work well, but like the Bosch motor, there is still no fix for the left-hand bearing.
Hopefully, like we have for the Bosch motors, we will make or come across a solution and implement it.
The real problem with Brose motors, there's just not enough of them in the market place to warrant large investment. Having special parts designed and manufactured is not cheap. We have just spent thousands having the crankshaft bearings manufactured and the numbers we have to buy means they will be on the shelves for 18 months at least!

Thanks @Bearing Man

For anyone interested these are some pictures of a Brose S Mag motor which I assume is very similar to the 2.1 motor used in the Specialised. The rubber seal can be seen on the drive side although it's not clear from the photo how or whether it sits in the casing to effectively seal the gap between crankshaft and casing. The non-drive side is presumably just a normal RS bearing, as it is on other motors like Bosch and definitely a weak point eventually, even if not power washed

.

 

[Swissrider]

I believe Brose make electric motors for things like steering racks in cars, and the life expectancy is the life of the car because the motors are engineered to last this long in a fairly consistent environment. I suspect, like others have mentioned, that the many ebike motors were not really designed for the kind of use that we put them through and we are in fact beta testing these motors for MTB use. The ease at which manufacturers replace motors rather suggests this is the case. Hopefully, the too frequent failures of belts and bearings, water ingress etc will eventually lead to motors that can last many years, as electric motors should. One factor that has not been mentioned is the weight of the rider - a heavier rider is going to make the motor work harder, particularly going up a very steep slope using turbo, putting greater strain on the belt and bearings and all the internals. The mtb environment is a tough one, but if one manufacturer can produce a motor strong enough and tough enough to cope, with failures being very rare, that would recommend it to me. My bike (2018 Kenevo) is coming to the end of its warranty period, and as I can't ride it in the winter (too much snow in Switzerland) I really only get eighteen months of riding in two years. I've not seen how much a replacement motor is out of warranty but I suspect it's going to be pretty expensive when it seems it will eventually fail.

 

[Beekeeper]

Just out of interest, do motors overheat on steep climbs and cut out because of it?
Can they suffer heat damage from sustained turbo mode up a hill or it this impossible?

 

[Swissrider]

Some do, some don’t. Some used to but don’t anymore. Some reduce power when they get hot to protect motor. Cutting out and reducing power are safety measures to prevent any damage occurring so in theory, no damage will be done but common sense says that regularly doing big ascents in turbo in hot weather will do some damage - plastics getting brittle, grease drying out etc.

 

[Beekeeper]

The Brose right hand crankshaft bearing cover seal was introduced on the 2.1, the earlier motors didn't have this part.
To be honest, this seal coupled with the internal seal upgrade work well, but like the Bosch motor, there is still no fix for the left-hand bearing.
Hopefully, like we have for the Bosch motors, we will make or come across a solution and implement it.
The real problem with Brose motors, there's just not enough of them in the market place to warrant large investment. Having special parts designed and manufactured is not cheap. We have just spent thousands having the crankshaft bearings manufactured and the numbers we have to buy means they will be on the shelves for 18 months at least!

Hi Bearing Man

I’d be interested to know out of all the Bosch motors you have repaired, what percentage of them have only needed the main motor bearing replaced.

 

[Bearing Man]

Hi Bearing Man

I’d be interested to know out of all the Bosch motors you have repaired, what percentage of them have only needed the main motor bearing replaced.

Good question! Not that many, but I think this is mainly because if the main motor bearing is gone most bike shops and customers will just fit a full Bosch service kit and I don't get to see the motor until one of the other bearing fail. The main motor bearing sells twice as well as any other bearing.
In the early days, before the Bosch service kit, we would do just a main motor bearing every third motor I guess.
Can I ask why you ask?

 

[Mikerb]

Looking at all of this in another way, unreliability is much less acceptable that comparatively short lifespan. I would suspect electrical problems are the major cause of unreliability rather than motor failures. With regards to motors I wonder what the cost price for one is. If for example a bike sells for £5k retail with a gross margin for the manufacturer of 20% but the cost price of a motor even including the overheads of delivery and fitting by a lbs is say £200 then it is not a big hit for them.....especially if the majority of those bikes sold do not suffer motor failures. As far as owners are concerned the warranty is 2 years and Spesh provide discounts after warranty expiry or Bearings man can effect repairs for c £200. Meanwhile enthusiasts are happy to spend £600 on new forks or wheelsets when thete is not a lot wrong with what they already have!
If you are concerned, dont buy an emtb! If you buy an emtb take account of its potential weaknesses as well as its unique strengths and use it accordingly.

 

[Beekeeper]

Good question! Not that many, but I think this is mainly because if the main motor bearing is gone most bike shops and customers will just fit a full Bosch service kit and I don't get to see the motor until one of the other bearing fail. The main motor bearing sells twice as well as any other bearing.
In the early days, before the Bosch service kit, we would do just a main motor bearing every third motor I guess.
Can I ask why you ask?

Thanks,

I was only interested because the Bosch service kit looks pretty straightforward to do and one day in the distant future I’d probably attempt it myself.

I would worry however if after doing all of this that in fact other parts were equally as worn.
A bit like putting a brand new zipper on a moth-eaten jacket ?

 

[Roger20]

Thanks,

I was only interested because the Bosch service kit looks pretty straightforward to do and one day in the distant future I’d probably attempt it myself.

I would worry however if after doing all of this that in fact other parts were equally as worn.
A bit like putting a brand new zipper on a moth-eaten jacket ?

I did the Bosch service kit repair and it was very straightforward. However the main reason for going into the motor was because the left hand (none drive side) bearing had gone. Bosch technicians aren't apparently allowed to do this but because of the excellent videos from @Bearing Man and his spare parts service it was all quite straightforward.

The bike (Cube) was 3.5 years old by then and had done 2500 miles with probably 80% off road, often in the really muddy conditions we get in Yorkshire. I got to it just in time because it was showing signs of water ingress and much longer and the motor would have been scrap. Never pressure washed but always washed pretty thoroughly after every ride. Inside, apart from the two main bearings every other bearing seemed virtually as new which supports the notion that, at least with a Bosch Gen 3, if you get to it in time, the motor is certainly worth repairing.

It would be good to think that with the Brose, if you could catch the main bearings before they go too far, the rest of the motor is worth repairing when well out of warranty.

The problem I found was that you get used to the sound of the motor over time and don't really notice how much noisier it has become. I almost convinced myself it wasn't too bad and it was only when I found some discernible up and down play in the left hand bearing that I realised how bad it actually was.

 

[Bearing Man]

Hi @Bearing Man and apologies for the questions below!

I understand that the magnesium 2.1 motor was introduced in 2018 for the 2019 Turbo Levo

Just to be clear regarding the underlined part of your post "The same will happen with Brose. Their new motor cases are now treated so they won't rot away, they have introduced a slightly stronger belt, the right hand crankshaft bearing now has a seal cover, the wiring plugs are better" . When was this seal cover introduced? Has it been changed since the 2.1 motor was first available and if so can you identify it by just looking at the motor externally? Does it help with water ingress like the Mudstop for Bosch ?

Is there any way any additional external seals could be developed for the Brose 2.1 which might work like the Bosch Mudstop?

Sorry for the delay, we are still a bit busy at the moment. I did find a little time to take some pictures for you to help explain the progress so far.

 

[Bearing Man]

Thanks,

I was only interested because the Bosch service kit looks pretty straightforward to do and one day in the distant future I’d probably attempt it myself.

I would worry however if after doing all of this that in fact other parts were equally as worn.
A bit like putting a brand new zipper on a moth-eaten jacket ?

This is an excellent point and a big issue when you fit a Bosch service kit and leave the rest of the motor covered in rust and dirt, it won't last much longer! This is why we sell the plus kit that includes everything you need to do the job properly. (Don't hijack the Brose thread )

 

[Bearing Man]

I believe Brose make electric motors for things like steering racks in cars, and the life expectancy is the life of the car because the motors are engineered to last this long in a fairly consistent environment. I suspect, like others have mentioned, that the many ebike motors were not really designed for the kind of use that we put them through and we are in fact beta testing these motors for MTB use. The ease at which manufacturers replace motors rather suggests this is the case. Hopefully, the too frequent failures of belts and bearings, water ingress etc will eventually lead to motors that can last many years, as electric motors should. One factor that has not been mentioned is the weight of the rider - a heavier rider is going to make the motor work harder, particularly going up a very steep slope using turbo, putting greater strain on the belt and bearings and all the internals. The mtb environment is a tough one, but if one manufacturer can produce a motor strong enough and tough enough to cope, with failures being very rare, that would recommend it to me. My bike (2018 Kenevo) is coming to the end of its warranty period, and as I can't ride it in the winter (too much snow in Switzerland) I really only get eighteen months of riding in two years. I've not seen how much a replacement motor is out of warranty but I suspect it's going to be pretty expensive when it seems it will eventually fail.

Totally agree that things will only get better and I will be out of a job one day Nut don't worry about heavier riders Swissrider, the motor puts out the power that the motor puts out, it makes no real difference how heavy the rider is. As an example: If a 90kg rider starts climbing a 15% gradient, the motor will be at full power. If a 150kg rider starts climbing the same gradient the motor is still only outputting the same full power, but the heavier rider will be working harder if in the same gear at the same speed. The electric motor and belt is not connected to anything you do with the pedals. All these motors, Brose, Bosch, Yamaha etc. are all massively over engineered and designed to run at full power for extended periods of time, so there really should be no problem with weight issues.

 

[Davey S]

Hi all
Given the depth of knowledge on this forum I was hoping one of you may know what is causing the motor noise in this video. Its a 2019 levo. I have checksd and removed the chain guard and there is no noise when peddling without the motor. Has anyone had the same? I'm thinking bottom bracket bearing or slipping belt. Like I said any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. I'm not getting very far with retailers due to the lock down.
Thanks
Date.

 

[Davey S]

I can't seem to post the video but here is a link that should hopefully work.

Link Sharing

 

[Bearing Man]

I can't seem to post the video but here is a link that should hopefully work.

Link Sharing

what started the motor going? was it just switching it on or did you have to spin the pedals to get them to start turning on their own?

 

[Davey S]

what started the motor going? was it just switching it on or did you have to spin the pedals to get them to start turning on their own?

I was just holding down the walk assist button but it is acting weird giving a big spin the really slow. Then it speeds up and slows down like there is more or less resistance. When turning the pedals by hand there is little to no resistance which is what has me confused.

 

[Bearing Man]

The walk assist may be affected because you are running it on a stand and there is no initial resistance, so it may try to run away before the movement sensor registers its running too fast and gets it under control.
The noise to me sounds like it's time for a new front sprocket? Have you changed the chain recently, without the sprocket? Have you tried doing the same test but removing the chain from the front sprocket? (This will only work for a very short period of time because the motor won't pick-up the wheel sensor).

 

[Davey S]

The walk assist may be affected because you are running it on a stand and there is no initial resistance, so it may try to run away before the movement sensor registers its running too fast and gets it under control.
The noise to me sounds like it's time for a new front sprocket? Have you changed the chain recently, without the sprocket? Have you tried doing the same test but removing the chain from the front sprocket? (This will only work for a very short period of time because the motor won't pick-up the wheel sensor).

Thanks I assumed if it was the sprocket then it would make the sound both with and without the motor on. I have 2 chains that I rotate does it with both. It only happens when the motor is turned on. If pedalling without the motor it is silent. I'll take the chain off tomorrow to check just for good measure. Thanks!!

 

[Bearing Man]

Thanks I assumed if it was the sprocket then it would make the sound both with and without the motor on. I have 2 chains that I rotate does it with both. It only happens when the motor is turned on. If pedalling without the motor it is silent. I'll take the chain off tomorrow to check just for good measure. Thanks!!

It was difficult to hear on the video because you ran the motor very slow with walk assist and then very fast by hand, but the underlying noise still seemed to be there. Will be interesting to hear it without the chain. If it's still making the noise, can you hold your phone nearer the case on the chainwheel side.

 

[Davey S]

It was difficult to hear on the video because you ran the motor very slow with walk assist and then very fast by hand, but the underlying noise still seemed to be there. Will be interesting to hear it without the chain. If it's still making the noise, can you hold your phone nearer the case on the chainwheel side.

Yes will do. I'm interested to find out myself! Thanks. Will post a video in a bit.

 

[Swissrider]

Totally agree that things will only get better and I will be out of a job one day Nut don't worry about heavier riders Swissrider, the motor puts out the power that the motor puts out, it makes no real difference how heavy the rider is. As an example: If a 90kg rider starts climbing a 15% gradient, the motor will be at full power. If a 150kg rider starts climbing the same gradient the motor is still only outputting the same full power, but the heavier rider will be working harder if in the same gear at the same speed. The electric motor and belt is not connected to anything you do with the pedals. All these motors, Brose, Bosch, Yamaha etc. are all massively over engineered and designed to run at full power for extended periods of time, so there really should be no problem with weight issues.

There is something I don’t understand in your point about weight. You seem to suggest that if two riders, one heavy and one light are going up a hill at the same speed, the heavier rider will have to contribute more, otherwise he will go slower. However, I have found that heavier riders run out of battery considerably quicker than light ones. On a big climb, going full speed on Turbo, I’ve had as much as 30% left whilst a 20% heavier rider has run out of battery. Doesn’t this mean his motor must have been working harder and in the long term a motor which has has heavier use will wear out quicker than one which has had lighter use? Having said all this, I get the impression that the conditions one rides in and the way in which one washes ones bike (or not) seems to have a much bigger impact on the life of the motor than how it is used or even how long it is used.

 

[Tedgar]

There is something I don’t understand in your point about weight. You seem to suggest that if two riders, one heavy and one light are going up a hill at the same speed, the heavier rider will have to contribute more, otherwise he will go slower. However, I have found that heavier riders run out of battery considerably quicker than light ones. On a big climb, going full speed on Turbo, I’ve had as much as 30% left whilst a 20% heavier rider has run out of battery. Doesn’t this mean his motor must have been working harder and in the long term a motor which has has heavier use will wear out quicker than one which has had lighter use? Having said all this, I get the impression that the conditions one rides in and the way in which one washes ones bike (or not) seems to have a much bigger impact on the life of the motor than how it is used or even how long it is used.

My wife and I have the same 2019 Carbon Comp just diff sizes. She can ride in Turbo as I ride in Eco and our batteries drain at the same rate.

I would like to be sure my new motor has upgrades since 2019 models purchased early in 2020. If I knew they did have upgrades then I would swap our motors and bust her belt also before the warranty expires. Lol. She rides so mellow I fear her motor will last past the warranty.

 

[Bearing Man]

There is something I don’t understand in your point about weight. You seem to suggest that if two riders, one heavy and one light are going up a hill at the same speed, the heavier rider will have to contribute more, otherwise he will go slower. However, I have found that heavier riders run out of battery considerably quicker than light ones. On a big climb, going full speed on Turbo, I’ve had as much as 30% left whilst a 20% heavier rider has run out of battery. Doesn’t this mean his motor must have been working harder and in the long term a motor which has has heavier use will wear out quicker than one which has had lighter use? Having said all this, I get the impression that the conditions one rides in and the way in which one washes ones bike (or not) seems to have a much bigger impact on the life of the motor than how it is used or even how long it is used.

I understand your argument and yes the heavier riders motor will be working slightly harder on slight inclines but bear in mind, the motor is designed to take more power than we can currently access, so being at full power, is still not stressing the motor and as soon as the motor reaches full power the wear between heavy and light rider is the same. As for the slight bit more stress for the heavier rider, it really should be negligible.

 

[Davey S]

It was difficult to hear on the video because you ran the motor very slow with walk assist and then very fast by hand, but the underlying noise still seemed to be there. Will be interesting to hear it without the chain. If it's still making the noise, can you hold your phone nearer the case on the chainwheel side.

Link Sharing

Definitely still making the noise with the chain off what do you think??