Bosch Range Tests - Comparisons

[Plummet]

PS I'm sure you are going to be very happy with Gen5 100nm bosch. its a solid motor with decent grunt.

Site note here's an 100nm session I did.... was into the 25% battey left after 1:15 of ride time on the 600wh....
When you go full 100nm ya suck battery fast. There's no escaping physics.... Use more power = drain battery faster.

 

[Entonox]

In the test linked earlier torque and power levels were matched and both were in max assistance - but Bosch gives 4x rider assistance, Avinox 8x.
So if riding the climbs at the same speed the Avinox rider will be putting in less power (half) compared to the Bosch. So you could even argue Avinox is more efficient than Bosch in this test

Obviously it's a lot more complicated than this but it shows how difficult it is when trying to compare motors.

 

[xtraman122]

In the test linked earlier torque and power levels were matched and both were in max assistance - but Bosch gives 4x rider assistance, Avinox 8x.
So if riding the climbs at the same speed the Avinox rider will be putting in less power (half) compared to the Bosch. So you could even argue Avinox is more efficient than Bosch in this test

Obviously it's a lot more complicated than this but it shows how difficult it is when trying to compare motors.

Nobody seems to understand that in any of these tests. There is no measurable difference in efficiency, one is just doing a lot more work in one case. People will continue debating until the end of time and keep making these videos though.

 

[dadeadduck]

Electric motors are very efficient, there will be nothing between the motors in terms of power usage if all conditions are equal.

The Avinox has 2x Bosch assist and it can ramp up quicker with the 41x per rotarion speed/torque/grip sensor. It'll need it's assist/support levels dialed back to make things "more equal" or "more natural". Out of the box the Avinox will use more juice, but it is flexible.

Two two riders should be able to compare rider input data, that might help.

 

[Suns_PSD]

All of these range tests have some shortcoming or another. They also all show about the same consistent lower efficiency of the Avinox motor. It's also false to claim all motors have the same efficiency and that it's just related to power. This just isn't factually true.

I was never trying to prove that my current Bosch was the superior powertrain by asking these questions, I was simply trying to pick the superior powertrain for my desires. I'm also weight weenie as heck so weight matters to me, entirely too much!

It's my opinion that the Bosch CX motor (mine is actually the CXR so lighter and more efficient still) is LIGHTER than the Avinox, after adding the needed 240 gram bashguard to the Avinox and going off WH/ meter climbed.
The Bosch is undoubtedly quieter.
The Bosch is also more natural feeling and better supported.
The 2 things the Avinox brings to the table >100NM/ 750W and slimer looks (actually the Andidote I ordered is impressively slender in appearance) are just pretty low on my personal priority list.

So yah, I narrowed down my choices to ONLY consider Bosch bikes and ordered one last week. In the end the only Avinox bike that really appealed to me in spite of the motor was the Rogue because the geo and suspension is a dynamite combo at a killer price point.

 

[nickf]

It's also false to claim all motors have the same efficiency and that it's just related to power. This just isn't factually true.

Interesting statement. Would you care to back it up with some true facts?

 

[dadeadduck]

All of these range tests have some shortcoming or another. They also all show about the same consistent lower efficiency of the Avinox motor. It's also false to claim all motors have the same efficiency and that it's just related to power. This just isn't factually true.

I was never trying to prove that my current Bosch was the superior powertrain by asking these questions, I was simply trying to pick the superior powertrain for my desires. I'm also weight weenie as heck so weight matters to me, entirely too much!

It's my opinion that the Bosch CX motor (mine is actually the CXR so lighter and more efficient still) is LIGHTER than the Avinox, after adding the needed 240 gram bashguard to the Avinox and going off WH/ meter climbed.
The Bosch is undoubtedly quieter.
The Bosch is also more natural feeling and better supported.

There has not been one test that shows motor efficiency. The videos show bike and rider efficiency, none of them are consistent and none of them downtune the avinox support levels to match the Bosch. If there is any evidence showing motor power in and power out, at the same support levels, please provide a link.

Just because you add weight to the bike with a bashguard doesn't make the motor heavier. It's 2.5kg Vs 2.75kg. Avinox battery is also lighter at 3.7kg Vs 3.9kg.

You've got a top tier motor, you're gonna have a great bike, but don't kid yourself it's 20% more efficient or lighter when it's not.

 

[xtraman122]

There has not been one test that shows motor efficiency. The videos show bike and rider efficiency, none of them are consistent and none of them downtune the avinox support levels to match the Bosch. If there is any evidence showing motor power in and power out, at the same support levels, please provide a link.

Just because you add weight to the bike with a bashguard doesn't make the motor heavier. It's 2.5kg Vs 2.75kg. Avinox battery is also lighter at 3.7kg Vs 3.9kg.

You've got a top tier motor, you're gonna have a great bike, but don't kid yourself it's 20% more efficient or lighter when it's not.

The only way to do the efficiency right would be on a dyno with something spinning the cranks at a fixed speed/torque on both bikes so you have identical inputs, something measuring power drawn from the battery to know the proper input power, and then comparing the power input from the battery side to power output on the dyno. If they had throttles you wouldn't need the added complication of something spinning the cranks, but I don't think there's any way around that with these motors.

 

[nickf]

The only way to do the efficiency right would be on a dyno with something spinning the cranks at a fixed speed/torque on both bikes so you have identical inputs, something measuring power drawn from the battery to know the proper input power, and then comparing the power input from the battery side to power output on the dyno.

Agreed. The guys at Velomotion do some serious and comprehensive dyno bench test comparisons, but I believe even they have stopped trying to address output power vs battery consumption (aka "efficiency") because in practice it's just not possible to give any figure that - albeit objective and repeatable - has any genuine meaningfulness in real life.

The reason is simply that there are a several parameters that affect output power - and hence battery consumption - and together they give multiple combinations of possible test scenarios. Any figure they might choose to quote would either be overly specific (ie valid only for a very specific rider cadence and effort) or not repeatable in real life.

These two graphics taken from their Bosch CX gen 5 bench test review demonstrate this well.

 

[Bogdan_CH]

actually the Andidote I ordered is impressively slender in appearance

No wayyy, that things a beauttttty.

Please please keep us update. I think they managed to outdone the UNNO is beauty design even with the "ugly duckling" they scrapped.

 

[bmwpowere36m3]

In the market for a new eMTB, current one (170/160 mm) has an EP801 (85Nm/600W) and 720wH darfon battery. A few of the bikes I've been looking at run the Bosch CX w/ 600wH battery.

I'm 200 lbs geared up and I've been seeing range like:

• Enduro loop
  • paved road up
  • 4000' vert, 22 miles, 2:15 hrs
  • trail mode (100% of time)
  • finished final lap on red and probably could have eeked out another lap, maybe mix with eco (~4700')
• All Mountain
  • single track, bigger elevation, lots of slabs
  • 3000' vert, 13.5 miles, 2:10 hrs
  • trail mode (95% of time)
• Trail
  • rolling single track
  • 2800' vert, 18 miles, 2:40 hrs
  • trail mode (95% of time)
• Trail
  • rolling single track (same as above)
  • 1600' vert, 10.5 miles, 1.5 hrs
  • turbo mode (90% Turbo, last 2 miles eco)
• Trail
  • rolling single track (different location)
  • 1900' vert, 13 miles, 1:20 hrs
  • turbo mode (100% Turbo, battery died at 12 mile mark)

Range is going to be subjective, but I'd love to get at least 4500' or on a smooth gravel/road climb (winch and plummet) and 3000' on more trail/rolling terrain/techy climbing singletrack with 85 Nm and similar assistance to trail on EP8.

 

[Plummet]

In the market for a new eMTB, current one (170/160 mm) has an EP801 (85Nm/600W) and 720wH darfon battery. A few of the bikes I've been looking at run the Bosch CX w/ 600wH battery.

I'm 200 lbs geared up and I've been seeing range like:

• Enduro loop
  • paved road up
  • 4000' vert, 22 miles, 2:15 hrs
  • trail mode (100% of time)
  • finished final lap on red and probably could have eeked out another lap, maybe mix with eco (~4700')
• All Mountain
  • single track, bigger elevation, lots of slabs
  • 3000' vert, 13.5 miles, 2:10 hrs
  • trail mode (95% of time)
• Trail
  • rolling single track
  • 2800' vert, 18 miles, 2:40 hrs
  • trail mode (95% of time)
• Trail
  • rolling single track (same as above)
  • 1600' vert, 10.5 miles, 1.5 hrs
  • turbo mode (90% Turbo, last 2 miles eco)
• Trail
  • rolling single track (different location)
  • 1900' vert, 13 miles, 1:20 hrs
  • turbo mode (100% Turbo, battery died at 12 mile mark)

Range is going to be subjective, but I'd love to get at least 4500' or on a smooth gravel/road climb (winch and plummet) and 3000' on more trail/rolling terrain/techy climbing singletrack with 85 Nm and similar assistance to trail on EP8.

Yourl be able to get 4500 vert on a 600 wh but not full 85nm you'll have to conserve and donate combo of 70 and 85nm.

 

[Suns_PSD]

You currently utilize your 720w battery at your weight, terrain & fitness so I think that you need to search out the few Bosch bikes that have an 800w. It will also allow you to try and keep the battery between 10-90% which will notably improve battery life.

I REALLY like the Norco VLT (new one, not the old ones) in this space.

GL

 

[bmwpowere36m3]

Yourl be able to get 4500 vert on a 600 wh but not full 85nm you'll have to conserve and donate combo of 70 and 85nm.

Honestly I haven't played nor setup the Shimano App to control the assistance or power settings since having this eMTB. Generally I'm riding in trail mode which allows up full 85Nm torque. Turbo is just when I'm time crunched and looking to blast through, not typical ride. ECO... well, on the Shimano it feels like pedaling around a 170mm bike haha. I can do that on my Firebird... so trail mode is what I normally run.

If I could get similar range, then it opens options for bikes... since a few of the 800wH bikes I've seen would lean more "DH" or plow than my meat/Firebird and I'm not really looking for that. My SCOR 4060z LT, which is a little shorter in WB and tighter in cockpit (top tube and reach) feels super fun, trail bike'y and the added weight makes it just as sure footed as the Firebird, if not more.

 

[Bogdan_CH]

I've rode a couple of times with my friend that has a EP801 with Darfon 720Wh battery (Scor 4060 Z LT) . We're on a similar weight around 180 - 185 lbs .

The battery is quite comparable with my 600 wh battery. With the 800 I exceed him quite a lot in range. For me , even in higher power modes (50% 85 nm - 50% 100 Nm) I can't drain the 600wh only if I go over 4000 vertical feet and at least 15 to 20 miles regardless if it's cold outside. Yesterday ride / around 7 degrees celsius : 1800 feet - 9 miles ride (it was really muddy) I've drained 40% of the 600wh .

Your not really that far above my weight but it matters, but not sure to what extent.

Just to give a fact out, I've ride with my daughter on the Kids Ride Shotgun a couple of times so adding 20 kg / 45 lbs so around 23-25% , I get about the same range with the 800wh as I get with the 600wh.

Personally I hate the idea of range extenders by many reasons so for me the 600/800 swap is ideal hence I rearely used the big battery but from my honest opinion I think you would be able to do all listed above without living on the edge with anxiety that you will not make it.

 

[bmwpowere36m3]

You currently utilize your 720w battery at your weight, terrain & fitness so I think that you need to search out the few Bosch bikes that have an 800w. It will also allow you to try and keep the battery between 10-90% which will notably improve battery life.

I REALLY like the Norco VLT (new one, not the old ones) in this space.

GL

Based on some of the data shared, I was thinking the Bosch CX system was more "efficient" than the Shimano EP801 w/ Darfon battery.

In the LoamWolf test, the rider was definitely more than 195 lbs and he rode a winch/plummet enduro loop and got 4500'. So that made me hopeful of using a 600wH with Bosch CX. Plus the Bosch CX is potentially more powerful than the Shimano EP801. I don't know if eMTB (Bosch) equals Trail (Shimano) mode, but it made me hopeful.

What did you end up going with? I read the Antidote, but they ghosted you. The Regulator CX is very similar to my SCOR in geo and reviews noted its playful nature, which is how I'd describe the SCOR.

 

[bmwpowere36m3]

I've rode a couple of times with my friend that has a EP801 with Darfon 720Wh battery (Scor 4060 Z LT) . We're on a similar weight around 180 - 185 lbs .

The battery is quite comparable with my 600 wh battery. With the 800 I exceed him quite a lot in range. For me , even in higher power modes (50% 85 nm - 50% 100 Nm) I can't drain the 600wh only if I go over 4000 vertical feet and at least 15 to 20 miles regardless if it's cold outside. Yesterday ride / around 7 degrees celsius : 1800 feet - 9 miles ride (it was really muddy) I've drained 40% of the 600wh .

Your not really that far above my weight but it matters, but not sure to what extent.

Just to give a fact out, I've ride with my daughter on the Kids Ride Shotgun a couple of times so adding 20 kg / 45 lbs so around 23-25% , I get about the same range with the 800wh as I get with the 600wh.

Personally I hate the idea of range extenders by many reasons so for me the 600/800 swap is ideal hence I rearely used the big battery but from my honest opinion I think you would be able to do all listed above without living on the edge with anxiety that you will not make it.

The SCOR has been mega fun and capable, but I'm currently on my second frame within 2 months. First rear triangle cracked at 6 rides in, continued riding and it finally broke proper at ride 33. Now I'm 3 rides into a new frame (warranty) and its starting to crack again... so I'm done with SCOR and their shitty design and lack of real support in the US.

I should have known better, but they were discounting them mega at Jenson and for the price ~$4k the spec was on-point.

 

[Plummet]

Honestly I haven't played nor setup the Shimano App to control the assistance or power settings since having this eMTB. Generally I'm riding in trail mode which allows up full 85Nm torque. Turbo is just when I'm time crunched and looking to blast through, not typical ride. ECO... well, on the Shimano it feels like pedaling around a 170mm bike haha. I can do that on my Firebird... so trail mode is what I normally run.

If I could get similar range, then it opens options for bikes... since a few of the 800wH bikes I've seen would lean more "DH" or plow than my meat/Firebird and I'm not really looking for that. My SCOR 4060z LT, which is a little shorter in WB and tighter in cockpit (top tube and reach) feels super fun, trail bike'y and the added weight makes it just as sure footed as the Firebird, if not more.

If you go 600wh, yourl have to use more legs/lungs to get the same distance.

But uourl have a more fun and playful bike.

 

[Suns_PSD]

Based on some of the data shared, I was thinking the Bosch CX system was more "efficient" than the Shimano EP801 w/ Darfon battery.

In the LoamWolf test, the rider was definitely more than 195 lbs and he rode a winch/plummet enduro loop and got 4500'. So that made me hopeful of using a 600wH with Bosch CX. Plus the Bosch CX is potentially more powerful than the Shimano EP801. I don't know if eMTB (Bosch) equals Trail (Shimano) mode, but it made me hopeful.

What did you end up going with? I read the Antidote, but they ghosted you. The Regulator CX is very similar to my SCOR in geo and reviews noted its playful nature, which is how I'd describe the SCOR.

The Bosch is an efficient motor, but then so is the Shimano. That said, yes a new battery in a new Bosch should be more efficient. I just think that you should stay away from the edge. At your size, really what's an extra 1 kg?

I paid a 50% DP on the Antidote. I'm still very eager to receive the bike, hopefully even this year, as without riding the bike it really does check off all of my priorities including Bosch CX-R with Kiox400 display, 600w fixed battery, High Pivot, longer reach, longer CS, adjustability, good dropper insertion, high end layup, etc. I think that they are a really cool brand.

That said I just went through my e-mails, the last time they responded to an e-mail of mine was October 14th (so nearly 2 months ago) and I've sent 6 e-mails to them since then. About half asking for an update and the other half asking technical questions. All e-mails were friendly and just requesting updates, where-as one I questioned where they would be when I actually needed support or a part that I imagine that they did not appreciate. When I placed the deposit on Sept 16 I was told about 4-6 weeks until I received the frame, but I never expected that date to hold but I do think weekly updates to deposit holders (there are several) is a reasonable request. The hope is that I open up PB one morning and right there at the top is the official release for the new Antidote e-bike and they then e-mail me saying that mine is ready to ship with photos and they are ready for final payment. The nightmare is a Pole, YT, etc. type of situation.

If for some reason it didn't work out and I got my money back, I'd probably buy the Regulator but nothing else out there super excites me. I also really like the Trek Slash-E for my terrain as I don't have mountains, just quite rough AM trails, and can only get about 130'/ mile.

 

[Suns_PSD]

The SCOR has been mega fun and capable, but I'm currently on my second frame within 2 months. First rear triangle cracked at 6 rides in, continued riding and it finally broke proper at ride 33. Now I'm 3 rides into a new frame (warranty) and its starting to crack again... so I'm done with SCOR and their shitty design and lack of real support in the US.

I should have known better, but they were discounting them mega at Jenson and for the price ~$4k the spec was on-point.

I only know one other person with one and his broke as well. He's aggressive but very light and the bike is nearly new.

 

[Bogdan_CH]

The SCOR has been mega fun and capable, but I'm currently on my second frame within 2 months. First rear triangle cracked at 6 rides in, continued riding and it finally broke proper at ride 33. Now I'm 3 rides into a new frame (warranty) and its starting to crack again... so I'm done with SCOR and their shitty design and lack of real support in the US.

I should have known better, but they were discounting them mega at Jenson and for the price ~$4k the spec was on-point.

His bike broke as well exactly as this frame broke thay was posted today :


Honestly this is crap. But he's using his EP801 on the standard settings as you do and I equal his range with the 600wh. One reasons is the modes on shimano are not that customizable as with Bosch so maybe he's wasting energy but it's definitely NOT as efficient.

I think you could survive with a 600wh but maybe look for some lighter options like the Shuttle AM where you could use both.

 

[Bogdan_CH]

The Bosch is an efficient motor, but then so is the Shimano. That said, yes a new battery in a new Bosch should be more efficient. I just think that you should stay away from the edge. At your size, really what's an extra 1 kg?

I paid a 50% DP on the Antidote. I'm still very eager to receive the bike, hopefully even this year, as without riding the bike it really does check off all of my priorities including Bosch CX-R with Kiox400 display, 600w fixed battery, High Pivot, longer reach, longer CS, adjustability, good dropper insertion, high end layup, etc. I think that they are a really cool brand.

That said I just went through my e-mails, the last time they responded to an e-mail of mine was October 14th (so nearly 2 months ago) and I've sent 6 e-mails to them since then. About half asking for an update and the other half asking technical questions. All e-mails were friendly and just requesting updates, where-as one I questioned where they would be when I actually needed support or a part that I imagine that they did not appreciate. When I placed the deposit on Sept 16 I was told about 4-6 weeks until I received the frame, but I never expected that date to hold but I do think weekly updates to deposit holders (there are several) is a reasonable request. The hope is that I open up PB one morning and right there at the top is the official release for the new Antidote e-bike and they then e-mail me saying that mine is ready to ship with photos and they are ready for final payment. The nightmare is a Pole, YT, etc. type of situation.

If for some reason it didn't work out and I got my money back, I'd probably buy the Regulator but nothing else out there super excites me. I also really like the Trek Slash-E for my terrain as I don't have mountains, just quite rough AM trails, and can only get about 130'/ mile.

I'm close to Poland, I'm close to Antitode guys, but even though their bike is sick I would just take a second guess. În the curent market offerings, the new Range is nice, the Regulator seems like a good fit and also the Velduro with DJI ( even though I don't like it the Avinox motor that much) is not bad

 

[sethimus]

Agreed. The guys at Velomotion do some serious and comprehensive dyno bench test comparisons, but I believe even they have stopped trying to address output power vs battery consumption (aka "efficiency") because in practice it's just not possible to give any figure that - albeit objective and repeatable - has any genuine meaningfulness in real life.

The reason is simply that there are a several parameters that affect output power - and hence battery consumption - and together they give multiple combinations of possible test scenarios. Any figure they might choose to quote would either be overly specific (ie valid only for a very specific rider cadence and effort) or not repeatable in real life.

These two graphics taken from their Bosch CX gen 5 bench test review demonstrate this well.

View attachment 168511

View attachment 168512

yeah, that's simply what @Suns_PSD doesn't understand. they even did a second avinox test video after avinox updated the firmware, and published the power curve for assistance level 7, 9, 11, 13 and 15 in AUTO and TRAIL mode (compaired to the orginal turbo one from the original firmware):

so that just shows, the avinox gives its users a blank slate, where they can tune it to their individual liking OR USE A SHIT TON OF POWER with nearly NO OWN INPUT, and then deplete the battery in no time. but that has nothing to do with how efficient the motor is, but on how much INPUT they want to put in themselves.

time to learn german, @Suns_PSD:

 

[bmwpowere36m3]

yeah, that's simply what @Suns_PSD doesn't understand. they even did a second avinox test video after avinox updated the firmware, and published the power curve for assistance level 7, 9, 11, 13 and 15 in AUTO and TRAIL mode (compaired to the orginal turbo one from the original firmware):


so that just shows, the avinox gives its users a blank slate, where they can tune it to their individual liking OR USE A SHIT TON OF POWER with nearly NO OWN INPUT, and then deplete the battery in no time. but that has nothing to do with how efficient the motor is, but on how much INPUT they want to put in themselves.

time to learn german, @Suns_PSD:

Testing can't always replicate ALL the variables in the real world... but, a test with a given input wattage and output (adjust assistance to normalize across test motors) could reveal differences in efficiency between systems. Ideally you would repeat over a few cadences, say 70-90 rpm (pretty typical for most). In addition a few output wattages, i.e,. low, mid and say full power of motor.

Its not 100% real world, but you could draw trends from this data which may show statistically significant differences.

Obviously a motor, like the DJI, which is proving a LOT more assistance than the competitiors is going to consume more power when used in such a way. Another challenge is their measuring power at the wheel, which isn't the way, I suspect, manufacturers are reporting (output pinion or chainring drive). At the wheel, your dealing with drivetrain losses and gearing, which affect results. Add to that, the different drivetrains, bikes needed to test all these motors since they are not universally compatible in fitment.

Any "meaningful" test would need to normalize assistance or power in vs. out when comparing battery usage.

 

[sethimus]

Testing can't always replicate ALL the variables in the real world... but, a test with a given input wattage and output (adjust assistance to normalize across test motors) could reveal differences in efficiency between systems. Ideally you would repeat over a few cadences, say 70-90 rpm (pretty typical for most). In addition a few output wattages, i.e,. low, mid and say full power of motor.

Its not 100% real world, but you could draw trends from this data which may show statistically significant differences.

Obviously a motor, like the DJI, which is proving a LOT more assistance than the competitiors is going to consume more power when used in such a way. Another challenge is their measuring power at the wheel, which isn't the way, I suspect, manufacturers are reporting (output pinion or chainring drive). At the wheel, your dealing with drivetrain losses and gearing, which affect results. Add to that, the different drivetrains, bikes needed to test all these motors since they are not universally compatible in fitment.

Any "meaningful" test would need to normalize assistance or power in vs. out when comparing battery usage.

you just repeated all the points mentioned in the video i posted?

 

[bmwpowere36m3]

you just repeated all the points mentioned in the video i posted?

I didn't watch the video... but I was looking at some of those graphs last night and the data does seem weird. I recall seeing the EP801 indicidating its more powerful than a CX4/5. Power levels, well below manufactored posted, but it wasn't consistent.

When Shimano/Bosch/DJI say 600W or 750W or 1000W is that electrical power to provide max output or is that the actual motor output?

 

[sethimus]

I didn't watch the video... but I was looking at some of those graphs last night and the data does seem weird. I recall seeing the EP801 indicidating its more powerful than a CX4/5. Power levels, well below manufactored posted, but it wasn't consistent.

When Shimano/Bosch/DJI say 600W or 750W or 1000W is that electrical power to provide max output or is that the actual motor output?

that’s also mentioned in the video, they never clear that up, but velomotion test all the motors with the same parameter and measure output at the wheel

 

[Suns_PSD]

I'll be the first to admit that it's not possible to control for every variable in a bike efficiency test.
That said, I've read enough rider reviews and online comparisons, some with normalized power but nearly all with normalized speeds, to conclude that the Bosch is indeed between 10-20% more efficient more than the Avinox. No one denies that the Avinox is like pedaling through quicksand when turned off so there is 30-70 watts per hour lost to drag right there, that anyone can verify and feel. The motor power still has to overcome that drag to turn the motor over.
Think how many Bosch 600w reviews you read where the tester says the battery size is ideal but then no one ever says that regarding the Avinox 600w. But also there are several instances of people saying that the Avinox bikes handle considerably better after switching to the 600w.
So efficiency, chain ring protection, power delivery, ability to pedal with motor off, noise, dealer support & a better handing bike are all advantages of the Bosch. I just think that people are too impressed by the power and the looks of the Avinox and they are ignoring too many other important attributes.
I only dove into the topic for my own info as it was between those 2 motor systems for me and I feel no need to convince anyone else.
For me, the Bosch is a considerably better overall package based on the reviews I've read and my priorities.

 

[Bogdan_CH]

The motor drag of the Avinox is ALOT more than any other motor out there so that means one thing for certain :

1. to overcome the drag power has to come from somewhere, with a 800% ratio, for sure it's the motor putting most of it .
2. going motor off or eco is a no go after a long day .

As for the Shimano EP801, I've rode with two of my firends for quite a while , more than 10 times in different places and EVERY time, the Bosch was more efficient. The CX4 on the other hand was almost equal.

 

[Plummet]

Well I ride with dudes with all motor options and my conclusion laterally after hundtreds of rides is the motors are of very similar efficiency. If one guy has a 600wh and the other has a 750wh regardless of brand the 600wh guy has less range. The only time that is not true is if 600wh guy uses more legs and lungs and or 750wh guy is a lot heavier.

There is no free lunch or a magic more efficient and more powerful motor.

When sizing a bike/battery size it on the run time you want to achieve.