I never knew it was happening, until it wasn’t.
Velduro Rogue 170/165 mullet Enduro with DJI
- Thread starter Nomadic Dad
- Start date
I must admit, I've never found kickback to be an issue in all my years riding and on both analog and ebikes. I've ran dt swiss hubs with low engagement and i9 hubs with high engagement but never felt hindered in any way
Sounds like my attempts at adulthood
I bet you never thought "I wish my wheel would get out of the way when I hit a bump" before suspension was invented.
Plummet
Flash Git
It's interesting to here all these middle aged old guys debating how much better one widget makes ya bike go and it sounds like its almost impossible to ride the bike without it that new latest widget. Then you enter a race as an old bastard and have all the wizbang widgets and gadgets and custom tuned this and carbon that and some kid I a clapped out old shitter with dented rims, sloppy headset and brake pads steel on steel absolutely wipes the floor with you.
The reality is that all these custom this, better that devices do sweet fa to your speed over and above a standard set up. Its cool and might "feel" a tiny bit better. But will you beat the kid on the clapped bike with your new widget? Absolutely not.
We are in agreement. If you read what I said. I said "It has up to 20 ° of takeup". "Up to" means anything from zero to 20 °. So as you say. If you factor in an average of half. It would still just about cover all the kickback in the 18T and 36T in most situations.
I was only making the case of high engagement Vs low engagement when choosing a hub on an Enduro EMTB, that will primarily be used for downhill bombing. And the motor is really just an uplift replacement.
I have no interest in anti-kickback devices. I have spent years using different hubs and chainrings, that aren't just durable. But are cheaply and easily serviceable. Because you tend to service them more, when it doesn't cost a fortune and you can easily do it yourself. And keeping them properly serviced, I have found, gives the best performance.
That said. If completely eliminating kickback is your goal. Then anti-kickback devices are the best device. In my design, I am just trying to minimise it, because there isn't a huge amount to contend with, and like other riders previously said, kickback hasn't been an issue for me.
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Whilst I agree with your sentiment. The best performing bike is not always about racing. I am old and too much constant kick-back hurts my ankles. It also increases my chances of loosing balance. Old and Falling don't go well together.
Plummet
Flash Git
Fair enough. My main point is the advantages/disadvantages of any widget are typically marginal at best and improve feel rather than significantly improving performance. Yet if you believe the internet experts the bike is almost unrideable without said widget.Whilst I agree with your sentiment. The best performing bike is not always about racing. I am old and too much constant kick-back hurts my ankles. It also increases my chances of loosing balance. Old and Falling don't go well together.
Mikects
Active member
What - like in the 1600s?
Guess it a cost / reward thing. Ive tried a few things over the years that I didnt know I wanted - and in the end didnt want or didnt miss when they were gone. Some things like suspension, dropper posts, 29" wheels were just such a game changer that you cant (wouldnt) go back. Is that the case with zero kickback?
sethimus
😠 Donald Duck 😠
that’s what i want to find out. worst case, i invested in a heavier rear wheel and i won’t feel a difference
Actually this neater brake cable routing may have been an earlier frame model.
The nz guys are getting deliveries with much longer exposed cable as per the website and robs build.
The original printed bike had the short loop, maybe caused to much cable stress.
Not that it really matters, but i do get a bit nervous not knowing exactly what is going to turn up.
A bit straw-mannish. Nobody is claiming that a fat, middle-aged, mediocre rider will suddenly be able to beat a talented grom who doesn't have the latest widget. It does not follow that buying said widget is a bad idea. First, as you say, it might feel better. Feeling better is the whole reason I ride, and getting less knee/back/hand pain from better-performing suspension contributes to that. Do you only buy things that will help you win races?
Second, I have trashed 3 wheels already this year so I was going to get a new, stronger one anyway. The e13 carbon wheels were half price so they cost about the same as the alloy DT Swiss wheels I was going to have built, and they come with a lifetime warranty so they will effectively last forever. Why not try the latest widget if it doesn't cost much more, and could even save money in the long run?
EDIT: And third, I have in fact wished for less pedal kickback while riding. There's at least one drop at Bike Park Wales that always causes the cranks to snap backwards on landing, which hurts my titanium femur. And sometimes my feet bounce off the pedals over very rough sections. I don't know for sure these are due to kickback rather than something else, like chain flail or poor suspension setup, but I'd like to find out.
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Plummet
Flash Git
Buy what ever you want and enjoy the hell out if it. Just dont kid yourself the you NEED the flash gadget or that everyone else needs it.
I love a nice bit of fruit. Hell, I designed and 3d printed ti motor mount bolts just because I could!
Durrti
Active member
Mine begins about abeam the front of the shock mount. I’ve used silicone tape to tie the two cables together, most elegant solution I could come up with. Also used the silicone tape around the speed cable routing on the chain stay to keep it from clapping in the hole.
Hmmm ....... With that colur frame, that really doesn't look good. That speed sensor cable looks well stretched.
So yeah. It will be good to see what you guys get.
slickrock
Well-known member
This topic of pedal kickback tech keeps coming up on multiple threads on this forum and MTB forums elsewhere, partly because I think it is manifold phenomena and also because of the range of anecdotal experiences with anti-pedal kickback tech that some say are "indispensable" all the way down to "not feeling anything different". With EMTB it's even worse because the motor is the mix with internal freewheels and additional float that can contribute to motor rattle (with rattle itself a huge controversy depending on the motor brand, mileage, the bike chassi, the wiring, trail conditions, etc.).
Part of the problem is that motors allow us to easily ride enduro rigs with 170mm-to-200mm rear travel - that's a whole lot of articulation where things like pedal kickback and chain whipping effects get noticed. It may make sense to read this thread on Anti-Pedal Kickback Tech to better understand aspects at play here, but I think the main thing to understand is that chain whipping effects are a big part of what people are noticing, perhaps more than pedal kickback itself (both rotational kickback and suspension kickback). Based on this I'll go out on a limb and stake a position on this as far as the Rogue is concerned, namely that you likely won't it need for this bike:
- Mid-high HP designs reduce the amount of chain growth because the idler is closer to axis of rotation and keeps the chain planted there - reduces chain whip.
- Idlers are closer the rear axle than chainrings, so the length the chain between the rear hub and the idler is notably shorter than distance from the rear hub and chainring for non-HP suspensions - really helps with chain whip
- Rogue seems to have less pedal kickback than others
- Leave it to the DGI folks offer sub menu options to control slack take-up when startup pedaling dynamics take place
Basically, some other boutique long-travel, non-Horst Link, non HP bikes bear value in this kickback tech (Crestline comes to mind), but probably not the Rogue.
I do hope they make longer chainstays. 437 is maybe just about long enough for a medium, when factoring in ~10mm growth at sag, but almost certainly too short for bigger sizes. I personally like a really high stack, but at least that can be worked around by adding spacers and high rise bars, so long as you factor in the changes to 'effective reach'. Forbidden has the right idea wrt proportional rear-centre and stack.
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Would be the perfect bike, with longer CS, the Bosch CX-R and a 600w battery option.
I guess that's what keeps it interesting, the bikes always have some flaws.
I'd like to see you measure the CS length at sag and closer to bottom out. The length will likely work well on the mediums.
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Personally i wouldn't look twice at it if bosch was fitted. You can check the suspension graphs, they are published on the aus velduro site and further back in this thread. About 10mm extra at sag i recall which seems decent.
Assuming the charts are accurate that is.
Why?
Do you have a daily need for above class 1 power levels?
Do you not care about rattles, efficiency, built in chain ring protection, torque focused power support, dealer support, able to pedal when shut off, etc...?
Easy derestriction, fast charging and a slim downtube are more important to me. Im not seeing any issues with dealer support in the uk.
There are plenty of bosch bikes out there. None really take my fancy.
sethimus
😠 Donald Duck 😠
ffs, do you have a learning disability? why are you constantly bringing up false information again when you got told several times that you are wrong!?
Those are valid reasons imo. The easy derestriction is super cool in particular. Fast charging and slender downtubes are nice to have but I'd rather have the better handling lower CoG of a fat battery, or better yet a 600w that's also low. I can't ride enough to need to recharge a battery quickly.
Ultimately, it's a bike first and foremost and that is the most important part of the equation. E-bikes are even more to figure out then bikes, just because you need to get a chassis AND a motor system that you like combined in one.
I'd own an Avinox, but for my needs it's not my first choice. However, the Crestline, the E-Druid & the Rogue are all sick bikes that are near the top of my personal list of preferred bikes.
Regarding motors, the Bosch motor is at the top of my heap based on countless reviews, but no real world experience with the Gen5.
The Maxon looks really cool but the 400w battery is a bummer. They should go all out and build a semi-solid state 550-650w battery and then they would really have something.
The new Mahle is probably the best motor available, but it's just a motor system, no bikes yet!
The HP60 is also amazing but I already run my current Fazua60 in the most powerful mode full time, and I want to get away from that.
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Durrti
Active member
As always, nicely done!
I’ve found that riding in “STD” mode lower progression feels quite a bit better. The “PRO”
Mode with the already progressive X2 is too much, I would only use 85-90% of the travel even on bigger drops.
Plummet
Flash Git
Nice video. I think most of your complaints are just a bike thats too small for you.
Also you really need to be considering rear centre measurement sagged when comparing high pivot bikes with non high pivot bikes due to the chain stay growth moving through the travel. That bike will likely be closer to 450 rear centre when compressed into a high corner.
One of the cool things about high pivot, I have two high pivot bikes, is you get the playfulness of shorter chainstay at lower speeds in the tight stuff, then when ya go full send and push the bike deeper into its travel going faster you get the stability of longer chainstay.
True. Though 437 CS on L and XL is still pretty short, even with +10mm of axle path growth at sag point. For comparison my Crestline has a 460mm CS, and also has +6mm axle path growth at sag point.
Comparing it to the eDruid, also with Avinox and high pivot, which in the equivalent size to the Large Velduro, the eDruid has a 456mm chainstay with also add +12mm at sag point (the XL has a massive 471mm Chainstay with +12mm growth at sag)...
Hopefully when the full UK release is out I can get a XL bike with any mods that the Velduro team have made for a more in depth followup video
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Good chance the 'Pro' mode is a better fit with a coil spring utilizing a linear spring.
Plummet
Flash Git
Certainly different sized humans need different sizes bikes. I absolutely hated my pole 455 chain stay (except for ultra steep climbing). Way to long for me. I wouldn't touch druid for that reason too. Their chainstays are far to long for my liking.True. Though 437 CS on L and XL is still pretty short, even with +10mm of axle path growth at sag point. For comparison my Crestline has a 460mm CS, and also has +6mm axle path growth at sag point.
Comparing it to the eDruid, also with Avinox and high pivot, which in the equivalent size to the Large Velduro, the eDruid has a 456mm chainstay with also add +12mm at sag point (the XL has a massive 471mm Chainstay with +12mm growth at sag)...
Hopefully when the full UK release is out I can get a XL bike with any mods that the Velduro team have made for a more in depth followup video
I think a 440 chain stay on a high pivot e bike with 800wh battery is ok for a size large, but agree that its not ideal for extra large.
There is also an argument for shorter chain stays on e bikes with big heavy batteries forward of the bb. Those big batteries provide a heap of front weight bias compared to a mtb. Its quite a stark reminder when jumping between mtb and E and also jumping from 400wh to 600wh to 800wh. Each battery size step up lumps another kg of weight and more front bias to the bike.
sethimus
😠 Donald Duck 😠
this, but my thinking in preordering was that at worst, it’s similar to what i have right now with the kenevo sl at 449mm and no real rearward travel. and with the 0.5° angle set and fork at 183mm i should have a few mm more cs length due to the main pivot moving up a bit more
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