Pole Voima 190mm Travel EMTB

Onetime

Active member
Aug 10, 2022
418
413
Cali
Yes, I do mean to outfit the Sonni with an A12 and Gates. My sense is from the Rohloff side, it won't be too much of a problem. There's the T-bone brake mount brace to deal with and sprocket/chainring alignment, but these should be surmountable.

OTOH, the Gates belt drive part of the solution will be more challenging. While the Sonni has an elevated chainstay swingarm, the space between the main mondo pivot and the chainring looks a bit tight for a belt (Voima doesn't have this constraint as the main pivots are smaller). Moreover, however, is the belt tensioner issue. It would have to mounted on the motor rather than the frame (like with the Pinion), which is why I think the Sonni open-motor design is advantageous here. Nicolai Bikes appears to have Gates tensioner setup mounted to a Bosch motor, so I'm going to chase that angle down.

Then there's chain-growth of the bike to consider, and the smaller it is the better, because there has to be enough tensioner articulation room for the target belt size used (unlike chains, whose length can be set with link precision, there are only so many belt sizes to choose from to set slack. This could be compensated if the bike had horizontal dropouts like with many city bikes, but of course these bikes aren't of the city ilk ). I have a query out with Pole on chain-growth and they still need to get back.

The E14 electronic shifting addition would be icing on the cake, but not a dealbreaker. If I could get the above to work, I would have a Pole bike with a bulletproof, time-tested sealed geared transmission working with the best big-player e-bike motor on the market linked by a belt in a all-weather, near zero-maintenance solution.
Sounds awesome, can’t wait to see the finished product. 👍🏼
 

THA

New Member
Sep 16, 2023
76
89
Finland
Yes, I do mean to outfit the Sonni with an A12 and Gates. My sense is from the Rohloff side, it won't be too much of a problem. There's the T-bone brake mount brace to deal with and sprocket/chainring alignment, but these should be surmountable.

... (Voima doesn't have this constraint as the main pivots are smaller). Moreover, however, is the belt tensinked by a belt in a all-weather, near zero-maintenance solution.
I would love all-weather near-zero-maintenance transmission... but I wonder how much weight gain this means in practice? And how sensitive the belt-drive is for mud or snow? I guess all the people 40+ years old can remember Volvo/Duff 344 automatic winter issues...
 

slickrock

Active member
Aug 7, 2022
129
128
SF Bay Area
I would love all-weather near-zero-maintenance transmission... but I wonder how much weight gain this means in practice? And how sensitive the belt-drive is for mud or snow? I guess all the people 40+ years old can remember Volvo/Duff 344 automatic winter issues...
The added weight (around 500 grams net) has always been a tradeoff with internal geared transmissions along with slight efficiency reduction (Rohloff practically minimal compared to derailleur , Pinion is higher), and cost (at least for the German stuff) has kept this tech from gaining traction for MTB for years now and the explosion of 1x1 has pretty much kept it that way. But.... we are are talking enduro EMTB here with a powerful and responsive Bosch motor, so weight penalty is not really an issue. Add to that the what folks really want is an integrated gearbox motor (e.g. Pinion MGU, Revonte, etc.), where this tech will not be lightweight anytime soon.

Regarding the belt drive, I've been using Gates on my Lenzs MilkMoney full suspension MTB for 8 years now, (even in Tahoe winters) without issue and literally zero maintenance; same belt the whole time; no stretch. These belts have to survive combustion engine heat in Formula One cars with huge torques - far more onerous than what what an EMTB could ever produce.

IMHO, having belt drive with an EMTB is as important as having an MGU itself. Luckily, MGU, along with what I'm trying to do here, opens up this belt drive capability.
 

THA

New Member
Sep 16, 2023
76
89
Finland
The added weight (around 500 grams net) ... Add to that the what folks really want is an integrated gearbox motor (e.g. Pinion MGU, Revonte, etc.), where this tech will not be lightweight anytime soon.

Regarding the belt drive, I've been using Gates on my Lenzs MilkMoney full suspension MTB for 8 years now, (even in Tahoe winters) without issue and literally zero maintenance; same belt the whole time; no stretch. These belts have to survive combustion engine heat in Formula One cars with huge torques - far more onerous than what what an EMTB could ever produce.

IMHO, having belt drive with an EMTB is as important as having an MGU itself. Luckily, MGU, along with what I'm trying to do here, opens up this belt drive capability.
Sounds a lot... in comparison with the stock rear wheel weight (inc. disc, cassette, etc.) app. 3100 g (hub 110 g?) that is huge increase in unsprung mass - in contrast with Revonte and Pinion.
 

Onetime

Active member
Aug 10, 2022
418
413
Cali
The added weight (around 500 grams net) has always been a tradeoff with internal geared transmissions along with slight efficiency reduction (Rohloff practically minimal compared to derailleur , Pinion is higher), and cost (at least for the German stuff) has kept this tech from gaining traction for MTB for years now and the explosion of 1x1 has pretty much kept it that way. But.... we are are talking enduro EMTB here with a powerful and responsive Bosch motor, so weight penalty is not really an issue. Add to that the what folks really want is an integrated gearbox motor (e.g. Pinion MGU, Revonte, etc.), where this tech will not be lightweight anytime soon.

Regarding the belt drive, I've been using Gates on my Lenzs MilkMoney full suspension MTB for 8 years now, (even in Tahoe winters) without issue and literally zero maintenance; same belt the whole time; no stretch. These belts have to survive combustion engine heat in Formula One cars with huge torques - far more onerous than what what an EMTB could ever produce.

IMHO, having belt drive with an EMTB is as important as having an MGU itself. Luckily, MGU, along with what I'm trying to do here, opens up this belt drive capability.
Sounds awesome! I can’t wait to see the finished product. I’d actually consider building a new rear wheel with the rollhoff hub and add a belt drive to my Voima if it seems easy enough to do. Once you subtract the weight of the cassette and derailleur, the hub weight isn’t so bad.
 

slickrock

Active member
Aug 7, 2022
129
128
SF Bay Area
Sounds a lot... in comparison with the stock rear wheel weight (inc. disc, cassette, etc.) app. 3100 g (hub 110 g?) that is huge increase in unsprung mass - in contrast with Revonte and Pinion.
But you also dispense with the satellite dish-size rear cassette of a 1x1 along with the most likely a heavy T-Type AXS derailleur and the heavy chain, so it's not as bad as all that.

Agree with you on the "unsprung" aspect along with a more rearward weight distribution. On my light 26-pound MTB, I must admit you can feel the added inertia when you flick rear end, but then again, when you are talking a 50+lb EMTB, it's not exactly flickable bike to begin with. Pinion has always had an advantage over speedhub in this regard, but there is no way to get Pinion and Bosch CX working because they would occupy the same space - unlike with the Speedhub.

As posted earlier, an MGU is the promised land for EMTB but you're gonna have wait a long while before you see it on a Pole, not to mention a reliable, time-tested MGU at that.
 
Last edited:

THA

New Member
Sep 16, 2023
76
89
Finland
Sounds awesome! I can’t wait to see the finished product. I’d actually consider building a new rear wheel with the rollhoff hub and add a belt drive to my Voima if it seems easy enough to do. Once you subtract the weight of the cassette and derailleur, the hub weight isn’t so bad.
Indeed, I forgot the 469 g from cassette, my bad. And the belt drive is definitely lighter than chain one. Altought Pinion/Revonte would we superb over Roloff... anyone using studded tires on winter knows so well how the added unsprung weight mesh up suspension functionality...
 

Suns_PSD

Active member
Jul 12, 2022
442
354
Austin
People make light of unsprung mass but it's surprising noticeable in regards to suspension performance.
Probably doesn't make you any slower but I certainly notice it.
It's obviously less relevant one an ebike but I've rarely encountered a situation on a pedal bike where big heavy tires made me faster overall, usually the opposite occurs.
 

THA

New Member
Sep 16, 2023
76
89
Finland
I installed Magura MT7 brakes and light cable today - reserved 2 hours for the job, due to all the other bikes I ever had have had some tricky, f. ex. too tight, points on the way. With Voima I was done in 30 min.! It's not only this, everything I have worked with the bike, as fitting it for me, has been so easy / accessable and minimal set of tools required. I give Leo 100/100 points for maintainability!
 

slickrock

Active member
Aug 7, 2022
129
128
SF Bay Area
Indeed, I forgot the 469 g from cassette, my bad. And the belt drive is definitely lighter than chain one. Altought Pinion/Revonte would we superb over Roloff... anyone using studded tires on winter knows so well how the added unsprung weight mesh up suspension functionality...
People make light of unsprung mass but it's surprising noticeable in regards to suspension performance.
Probably doesn't make you any slower but I certainly notice it.
It's obviously less relevant one an ebike but I've rarely encountered a situation on a pedal bike where big heavy tires made me faster overall, usually the opposite occurs.
What you guys are bringing up is arguably worse - unsprung rotational mass or inertial mass. Heavy tires and big wheels (29er) making the kinematics more sluggish because velocity changes are harder when mass is concentrated further away from the axle. This was at the root of the early 26 vs. 29 wars and later the 27.5 vs. 29 wars. It's an underlying reason why a chunk of folks prefer mullets and for those who are all in on full 29ers have long ago traded off this negative aspect for better rollover capability. At least the SpeedHub's mass is concentrated at the axle, so the effects are more minimized.

Still, more unsprung mass is more unsprung mass. It will probably affect more small bump compliance, so I expect that I will have to lower tire pressure, back out low-speed compression and rebound and go with either a coil shock or perhaps the new big chamber Vivid air shock. Then again, having 200mm of rear suspension leaves a lot of travel to play with and having a heavy 50+lb bike on the other end of a moment arm (instead of bike half its weight) should help matters.
 
Last edited:

tooFATtoRIDE

New Member
Sep 18, 2023
100
76
North by Northwest
Yes, I do mean to outfit the Sonni with an A12 and Gates. My sense is from the Rohloff side, it won't be too much of a problem. There's the T-bone brake mount brace to deal with and sprocket/chainring alignment, but these should be surmountable.

OTOH, the Gates belt drive part of the solution will be more challenging. While the Sonni has an elevated chainstay swingarm, the space between the main mondo pivot and the chainring looks a bit tight for a belt (Voima doesn't have this constraint as the main pivots are smaller). Moreover, however, is the belt tensioner issue. It would have to mounted on the motor rather than the frame (like with the Pinion), which is why I think the Sonni open-motor design is advantageous here. Nicolai Bikes appears to have Gates tensioner setup mounted to a Bosch motor, so I'm going to chase that angle down.

Then there's chain-growth of the bike to consider, and the smaller it is the better, because there has to be enough tensioner articulation room for the target belt size used (unlike chains, whose length can be set with link precision, there are only so many belt sizes to choose from to set slack. This could be compensated if the bike had horizontal dropouts like with many city bikes, but of course these bikes aren't of the city ilk ). I have a query out with Pole on chain-growth and they still need to get back.

The E14 electronic shifting addition would be icing on the cake, but not a dealbreaker. If I could get the above to work, I would have a Pole bike with a bulletproof, time-tested sealed geared transmission working with the best big-player e-bike motor on the market linked by a belt in a all-weather, near zero-maintenance solution.
Hi,
I am super excited in this project. I used to have bike with Rohloff and I liked it a lot. Now I have a Pinion equipped bike and I like it too.
On my future Pole bike I would like to have an internal gear system. Ideally I would love to have a Voima frame with Pinion MGU but nobody know if it ever happens, and if it happens, when it would happen. I would imagine I would be one of very few if not the only one Voima owner in Switzerland :)

For the Pinion MGU future Pole frames, maybe @leo_kokkonen has some updates for us.

Anyway, I looked closer at parts for the job, in particular the PM bone (Rohloff part number 8555). If I read Rohloff's docs (see attached file) correctly, the PM bone adds +20mm to the brake rotor/disc size. If I am not mistaken, Sonni comes standard with 200mm rear brake adapter. According to Rohloff, PM bone is not compatible then. I would imagine this is a simple fix for those with access to a machine shop but was surprised it would not be a simple fit and forget option.
 

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slickrock

Active member
Aug 7, 2022
129
128
SF Bay Area
Hi,
I am super excited in this project. I used to have bike with Rohloff and I liked it a lot. Now I have a Pinion equipped bike and I like it too.
On my future Pole bike I would like to have an internal gear system. Ideally I would love to have a Voima frame with Pinion MGU but nobody know if it ever happens, and if it happens, when it would happen. I would imagine I would be one of very few if not the only one Voima owner in Switzerland :)

For the Pinion MGU future Pole frames, maybe @leo_kokkonen has some updates for us.

Anyway, I looked closer at parts for the job, in particular the PM bone (Rohloff part number 8555). If I read Rohloff's docs (see attached file) correctly, the PM bone adds +20mm to the brake rotor/disc size. If I am not mistaken, Sonni comes standard with 200mm rear brake adapter. According to Rohloff, PM bone is not compatible then. I would imagine this is a simple fix for those with access to a machine shop but was surprised it would not be a simple fit and forget option.
OK, there seems be a lot of interest in internal gear transmission, motor gear unit, and belt-drive integration with Pole EMTBS. I've created a new discussion thread for this discussion so as not keep this Voima thread back on topic.

Cheers.
 

Blownoutrides

Active member
Mar 22, 2021
241
176
USA
Anyone know where the diagnostics port is in the Voima ID? At shop now and can’t find anything?

Nevermind. It’s hidden in the top tube mounted display. Unscrew the one screw, pluck out the display, look for the little rubber flap with a wrench on it.
 
Last edited:

Paul Mac

E*POWAH Elite World Champion
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It's on the side of the control unit in the top tube.
You have to undo the little torx bolt and pull out the unit.
 

Blownoutrides

Active member
Mar 22, 2021
241
176
USA
It's on the side of the control unit in the top tube.
You have to undo the little torx bolt and pull out the unit.
Thanks! Yeah I finally located it. Was at a Trek dealer and they took the opportunity to let me know that they thought my Pole was a joke because I didnt know where the diagnostics port was. Great, friendly service.
 

Onetime

Active member
Aug 10, 2022
418
413
Cali
Thanks! Yeah I finally located it. Was at a Trek dealer and they took the opportunity to let me know that they thought my Pole was a joke because I didnt know where the diagnostics port was. Great, friendly service.
They sound like douches. Them being a Trek/Bosch dealer, they should’ve known where the port was. Luckily my LBS has always been cool with me bringing my bike in for updates and they dig my Pole.
 
Last edited:

Paul Mac

E*POWAH Elite World Champion
Patreon
Subscriber
Jul 9, 2018
995
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Yes, literally when the new trek rails have the port in exactly the same place 🙄
 
  • Haha
Reactions: THA

cozzy

Well-known member
Aug 11, 2019
859
941
Hampshire UK
The 10 year anniversary sale seems pretty good. The champ model is less than the price of a frameset (UK pricing so plus vat & import)

1698225792579.png
 

cozzy

Well-known member
Aug 11, 2019
859
941
Hampshire UK
Im still not sure im reading the website correctly as it doesn't seem logical. Its the current frame with the doodah build into the top tube.

I would prefer the 'what we ride' spec, plus being a bigger saving, but it only comes in gold & I don't like gold!

The peoples champ spec'ed as below coming in at 5,350e (plus 20% vat) 6420e + 6% uk import = approx £5900

Frame: Voima ID Complete (K1 or K2 or K3, Raw clear, no protective films)
Battery Cover Color: Storm Grey
Axles: Standard Axles
Drive-unit: Bosch 750Wh Performance Line CX
Fork: RockShox ZEB Select 190
Rear Shock: RockShox SuperDeluxe Ultimate Air MY23
Headset: Cane Creek 40-series
Drivetrain: SRAM GX 12s, RaceFace Aeffect R 170mm
Brakes: SRAM Code R 220/200mm
Wheelset: Mavic Deemax 29″
Handlebar and Stem: RaceFace Chester 35 40mm 780mm
Seat Post: CrankBrothers Highline 3 34.9mm 125 / 170mm
Saddle: SDG Bel-Air
Tires: DD Maxxis Assegai 2.5 & Minion DHR II 2.4

There isnt much I would change here really, once ive fitted my fox40, reserve mullet wheels & saint brakes from my existing bike.
Maybe add race axles, the frame slider & ideally 165mm cranks rather than 170mm.
Replace the sram gears with linkglide & a better shock at a later date.

The frame only option is 5,596e (plus 20% vat) 6716e + 6% uk import = approx £6210
£310 more.

A full build similar to the 10-year bike is 6491e (plus 20% vat) 7790e + 6% uk import = £7206
Basically saving around £1300

Rambling post, just trying to justify the man maths outloud 😆
 
Last edited:

Redders473

Member
Jul 30, 2020
185
99
Leeds
Don't know if this has been asked before but could you order a pole bike and fly to finland and fly it back (refering to the brits here)would be hell of a lot cheaper. Just need to ship the battery or buy it without one.
 

cozzy

Well-known member
Aug 11, 2019
859
941
Hampshire UK
Don't know if this has been asked before but could you order a pole bike and fly to finland and fly it back (refering to the brits here)would be hell of a lot cheaper. Just need to ship the battery or buy it without one.
I was looking into this also. If you went out with an empty bike bag and brought it back. Would only save 6% import though?
Another option is perhaps getting it delivered to Switzerland whilst in morzine on holiday, as their vat is 10%, not 20%. Put some dirt on it, sling it on the van and drive home.
I haven't fully investigated this option to see if it would work..
 
Last edited:

Plummet

Flash Git
Mar 16, 2023
1,054
1,498
New Zealand
You would want to check out Finland taxes first.
Don't know if this has been asked before but could you order a pole bike and fly to finland and fly it back (refering to the brits here)would be hell of a lot cheaper. Just need to ship the battery or buy it without onea
 

cozzy

Well-known member
Aug 11, 2019
859
941
Hampshire UK
Pulled the trigger today after much internal debating with myself & lots of reading up & watching videos.
No need to replace my 2020 kenevo, but I just couldn't turn down the sale price of 5350 euros (plus 20% vat + 6% import).

The budget(!) build peoples champ spec as below.

Frame: Voima ID Complete K2, Raw clear, no protective films
Battery Cover Color: Storm Grey
Axles: Standard Axles - ordered race axles also, will fit at a later date. Or even sell if the bike feels fine as is.
Drive-unit: Bosch 750Wh Performance Line CX
Fork: RockShox ZEB Select 190 - swap to my fox40's.
Rear Shock: RockShox SuperDeluxe Ultimate Air MY23 - retain for now but have a coil preference.
Headset: Cane Creek 40-series
Drivetrain: SRAM GX 12s, RaceFace Aeffect R 170mm - swap to my 10spd linkglide. See how the 170mm cranks feel, would prefer 165mm.
Brakes: SRAM Code R 220/200mm - swap to my m820 saints.
Wheelset: Mavic Deemax 29″ - swap to my santa cruz reserve carbon mullet wheels.
Handlebar and Stem: RaceFace Chester 35 40mm 780mm - swap to my spank bars & dm stem.
Seat Post: CrankBrothers Highline 3 34.9mm 170mm
Saddle: SDG Bel-Air
Tires: DD Maxxis Assegai 2.5 & Minion DHR II 2.4
Additionally ordered the frame protector slider.

Gives a few bits to sell off to get a few hundred £ back. zebs, gx eagle, wheelset etc

Some future purchases will be :-
chainguide - the 3rd party 3d printed one looks pretty good & is well priced. POLE VOIMA chainguide - VisionVelo
2nd battery - these are priced fairly well in the uk, well compared to specialized 700 batteries anyway.
2nd battery cover - pole one is too expensive. Ive seen a 3rd party 3d printed one that looks decent. POLE VOIMA racing battery cover from VisionVelo
wireless remote - can probably live without it, I rarely use the one on my kenevo.

Magnet rotor sensor - This is my biggest concern, the lack of information surrounding getting the rim magnet replaced for the rotor magnet with the minimum of hassle. Sounds like a competent bosch dealer job. Additionally getting the speed reset for the 27.5" wheel, I certainly don't want the pitiful current 15.5mph limit to be reduced even further with the smaller wheel. Or getting a bosch delimitor that works. Ive not had bosch before & there seems to be loads of problems with error codes when using one. A lot more reading & research to do here.

Should be delivered in December, not that I will get to ride it for a while, as I dont ride in the wet, cold or mud. 😆
 
Last edited:

tooFATtoRIDE

New Member
Sep 18, 2023
100
76
North by Northwest
First of all, congratulations on your new bike! Take and send pictures when it arrives :)

......
Some future purchases will be :-
chainguide - the 3rd party 3d printed one looks pretty good & is well priced.
2nd battery - these are priced fairly well in the uk, well compared to specialized 700 batteries anyway.
2nd battery cover - pole one is too expensive. Ive seen a 3rd party 3d printed one that looks decent.
.......
Maybe you could share links to these?


......
derestrictor / rotor sensor - This is my biggest concern, the lack of information surrounding getting the rim magnet replaced for the rotor magnet with the minimum of hassle. Sounds like a competent bosch dealer job. Additionally getting the speed reset for the 27.5" wheel, or getting a bosch derestrictor that works. Ive not had bosch before & there seems to be loads of problems with error codes when using one. A lot more reading & research to do here.
.......
Also interested in the findings from your research. Feel free to share, either on here on via PM.
 

Paul Mac

E*POWAH Elite World Champion
Patreon
Subscriber
Jul 9, 2018
995
1,045
Uk
Pulled the trigger today after much internal debating with myself & lots of reading up & watching videos.
No need to replace my 2020 kenevo, but I just couldn't turn down the sale price of 5350 euros (plus 20% vat + 6% import).

The budget(!) build peoples champ spec as below.

Frame: Voima ID Complete K2, Raw clear, no protective films
Battery Cover Color: Storm Grey
Axles: Standard Axles - ordered race axles also, will fit at a later date. Or even sell if the bike feels fine as is.
Drive-unit: Bosch 750Wh Performance Line CX
Fork: RockShox ZEB Select 190 - swap to my fox40's.
Rear Shock: RockShox SuperDeluxe Ultimate Air MY23 - retain for now but have a coil preference.
Headset: Cane Creek 40-series
Drivetrain: SRAM GX 12s, RaceFace Aeffect R 170mm - swap to my 10spd linkglide. See how the 170mm cranks feel, would prefer 165mm.
Brakes: SRAM Code R 220/200mm - swap to my m820 saints.
Wheelset: Mavic Deemax 29″ - swap to my santa cruz reserve carbon mullet wheels.
Handlebar and Stem: RaceFace Chester 35 40mm 780mm - swap to my spank bars & dm stem.
Seat Post: CrankBrothers Highline 3 34.9mm 170mm
Saddle: SDG Bel-Air
Tires: DD Maxxis Assegai 2.5 & Minion DHR II 2.4
Additionally ordered the frame protector slider.

Gives a few bits to sell off to get a few hundred £ back. zebs, gx eagle, wheelset etc

Some future purchases will be :-
chainguide - the 3rd party 3d printed one looks pretty good & is well priced. POLE VOIMA chainguide - VisionVelo
2nd battery - these are priced fairly well in the uk, well compared to specialized 700 batteries anyway.
2nd battery cover - pole one is too expensive. Ive seen a 3rd party 3d printed one that looks decent. POLE VOIMA racing battery cover from VisionVelo
wireless remote - can probably live without it, I rarely use the one on my kenevo.

derestrictor / rotor sensor - This is my biggest concern, the lack of information surrounding getting the rim magnet replaced for the rotor magnet with the minimum of hassle. Sounds like a competent bosch dealer job. Additionally getting the speed reset for the 27.5" wheel, or getting a bosch derestrictor that works. Ive not had bosch before & there seems to be loads of problems with error codes when using one. A lot more reading & research to do here.

Should be delivered in December, not that I will get to ride it for a while, as I dont ride in the wet, cold or mud. 😆
The prices on these deals are insane and a no brainer.
I paid the best part of 7k for my frame only voima in June!
 

Onetime

Active member
Aug 10, 2022
418
413
Cali
Pretty sure the rim magnet automatically knows which wheel size your using.
No, it doesn’t. I had a 1st gen Voima with the rim magnet and I would only get 16mph with my 27.5 wheels, (verified with my Garmin GPS) when I was supposed to get 20mph. And changing the wheel diameter on the flow app did NOT change the speed. I needed to take my bike to my local bike shop who is a Bosch dealer, then they had to get the software emailed to them from Bosch Universal and then it was programmed into my bike. For my second Race ID Voima I ordered it with the rotor magnet speed sensor instead of the rim magnet. I still did the same reprogramming at the bike shop for my 27.5 wheels to get 20mph, but with the rotor magnet you can use a number of derestrictors, (or so I’ve been told). I’ve heard this one works great, it’s reasonably priced, it doesn’t require a display and it doesn’t have any start up or shut down procedures like some of the others (SpeedFun Furious Evo tuning ebike Bosch Smart System CX). My buddy has been using this one for several months now without any issues. Just don’t install or use the flow app with any of them or you could get error codes.
 

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