The mode I usually ride is -5 Assist and 40 NM max in Tour. I cannot let off the pedals at all but on the bright side, I never wheelie into steep tight switchbacks anymore....instead I have to ride it 90% like a regular MTB on those steep uphill tight switchbacks and maybe 75% like a real MTB on the rest of the flats and uphills...still easier than my analog. That way, my legs also don't lose a lot of the strength. On some days, I just used default eMTB but it is so easy that I do it rarely. IF I rode with others, I'd basically uses what they have set up- prob default eMTB, I assume.
Bosch Gen 5 Rumour - More Power updates coming!
- Thread starter elesdee
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I've been riding a Decoy since 2019, and I'm on a Heckler SL now. I'll probably go full fat again, most likely a Vala or a new Wild with Avinox (if that's what's coming).
The Decoy has 70Nm, capped at only 450w - boost on the Decoy is still stupidly powerful, in my opinion, but the power cap does mean at my natural cadence I rarely get full support.
A Gen 5 Bosch already seems like it has plenty of power to me. A motor putting out 100Nm, at a cadence of 70, is just under 750w of power... I suppose boosting the max power to 900w or so gives full support up to a cadence of 85.
With regards what happens at cut off, since day one on the Decoy I'd have been very happy if once the bike hits the cut off speed, the motor gave out 30Nm or so, maybe capping power at 300w for support up to a cadence around 90 - that would have turned the Decoy at speed in to something that feels more like my normal bike - well, faster than my normal bike...
EDIT: I'm not sure what level of assist I think I really need, maybe a multiplier of 2 is easily enough enough in Trail, I can't see how more than x4 is ever necessary. Giving 500w of support when putting in 100w or rider power sounds like a motorbike.
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It's worth considering that heat does not necessarily equate to power being derated.
You could look at this as the ones that derate the most are also going to be the most likely to have a long service life. I personally find that bosch gen 5 curve to be pretty attractive. The dji looks a bit squirelly.
I don't know much about the topic, but was wondering if DJI is purposefully creating all of those power peaks and valleys and erratic power delivery to manage heat related deregulation? Micro breaks maybe?
Maybe it's a good strategy as it's not something that a rider can even feel, and only a machine turning relentlessly at a constant rpm can even detect the ups/ downs?
Maybe it's a good strategy as it's not something that a rider can even feel, and only a machine turning relentlessly at a constant rpm can even detect the ups/ downs?
If you look at the wattage output, it's socking out significantly more power than all the others during the thermal test, even in the valleys. Thermal dissipation is related to mass, and the dji is lighter than the rest. Between this and the fast charging, I'd expect the dji setup to see significant degradation in performance over a few years of use. Time will tell.
Raptor
Active member
Jeez ride the gen5 bikes guys - even with the upcoming 120NM upgrade (personally I think my 100NM is fine as it is)
I was out in the trails in North Wales today playing with settings and settled on 90NM+700w in E-MTB+ mode (I’m 95KG). I’ve still got 100NM in Turbo, but it felt like just a little too much for anything other than hauling up the rare super steep stuff and spanks the battery whilst it’s doing it.
Raptor
Active member
likewise I only have 100nm set on turbo mode which I mostly don't use. I've got 85 set in E-mtb which I mostly use given its progressive nature
Yeah every small time Internet reviewer seemed to get an Amflow bike from the manufacturer. All the details about bikes that usually get scrutinised and pulled apart, were given a free pass in those "reviews" , it was all about the electronics.
OffitThatM8
Member
One thing I do find weird is all the influencer and random forum user glazing for avinox bikes, I always assumed everyone was like myself when it comes to emtb's in which it just allows you to do more for less, spend less time grinding climbs, more time riding downs, ride further, ride faster, have more fun. Do in 60 mins what would take you 120 mins on a regular mtb and not be pooped at the end of the ride.
When I was researching which eeb to buy as my first move from analogue to motor powered every where I looked was just filled with people basically saying "if it's not avinox it's not worth it" which I found bizarre like almost as if most riders would be better off on enduro motorbikes and power is all they're concerned about. Not ride feel, not bike fit or geometry or warranty or ride character just power power power power which I found absolutely bizarre.
I'd rather be on an analogue bike killing myself up hill but rides amazingly rather than a super powerful ebike that rides like shit, but it doesn't appear that everyone else in the ebike space feels the same way
bmwpowere36m3
Member
28mph and better GPS/routing on Kiox would be sweet... power is fine.
Sun is gonna be rethinking this strategy when hes chasing me in Central Texas
Ride feel and geo is so important. After decades of riding I have really been trying to hone this in recently. I bought a new acoustic bike back in November when I realized I was getting lazy on my SL2. That prompted me to want a different fit on my SL2, and I bought the Pivot Shuttle AM. That shuttle AM is magical, and a size smaller than I have been riding for the last 5-6 years. The pivot rides so good through our central texas trails, I just picked up a Switchblade off marketplace to replace my 6 month old Norco. I liked the norco, but the high pivot of the optic was eating through drivetrain components. It was a good bike, but I got too good of a deal on this switchblade to pass it up.
dimitrin
Member
He clearly stated in his comment that he hits 20 on downhill trails. Not all jump lines are steep enough, and may require a couple pedal strokes before you hit the lip to get the desired speed to safely clear it. I'm pretty sure those are the jump lines he is referring to.
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I still don't get the whole needing power to clear jumps thing.
If you can clear it on a normal enduro/dh bike, why couldn't you clear it on an e bike ?
I still don't buy the pedal drag or weight thing. I think most of it stems from getting lazy on an e-bike and relying on pedalling rather than carrying speed through corners/obstacles prior to these jumps...
I don't notice any significant drag when pedalling above cutoff with my gen 5 bosch bike anyways.
Yeah, I do not get that at ALL! In fact, Avinox is pretty low on my list of bikes to buy and bikes I like with that motor in it. I may eventually get a bike with an Avinox in it but certainly not Amflow unless they redesign it. I'd also have to have an extender and local support unless it was super easy to send the motor back for work (is that ever easy?).
I think some support is legit but a lot are shills pumping it and probably are not even mountain bikers.
Bogdan_CH
Active member
To sum things up, Bosch approached the MTB world by offering them an MTB solution for quick rides and super long days that could be done without so much planning .
Avinox had a different approach : appeal to anyone that want to pedal something without needing any kind of fitness , it’s dead easy . But in all honesty this is bad for the MTB sport as these people aim mostly :
- going without a speed limit
- just give me the power
That’s why it’s more appealing at first sight and bike brands had to follow since they want new riders in and all other motor brand jumped the bandwagon of power > everything , while people coming from analog bikes always say here :
- make it lighter
- make it smaller
- make it as similar to a analogue bike feel.
Avinox had a different approach : appeal to anyone that want to pedal something without needing any kind of fitness , it’s dead easy . But in all honesty this is bad for the MTB sport as these people aim mostly :
- going without a speed limit
- just give me the power
That’s why it’s more appealing at first sight and bike brands had to follow since they want new riders in and all other motor brand jumped the bandwagon of power > everything , while people coming from analog bikes always say here :
- make it lighter
- make it smaller
- make it as similar to a analogue bike feel.
I think the reason the e bike feels so hard to pedal above the limiter is because you are typically riding in a taller gear than you would an analogue bike when you hit that limiter.
Anyone struggling over the limiter, try riding to the limiter, and then shifting into an easier gear. You are gonna see that it really isn’t that much harder to pedal above the limiter. This is even true on my 80 pound Tern GSD gen 1 cargo bike. That motor has a lot more drag than the modern ones.
bmwpowere36m3
Member
I was just going to say this... also coming from a Shimano EP801, I was surprised how abruptly the Bosch CX gen5 cuts out. Sure you can pedal, but the gear your in doesn't support "effective" pedaling usually. I've been hitting the 20 mph limit more often with the Bosch bike. In part, it could be because its more powerful so I get to the limit quicker and more often.
Its definitely from the motor getting to the limiter so easily. On my Levo SL2 the limiter was hard to perceive, but you also had to put in some actual effort to get there, not just breath on the pedals and be there in a second. Definitely took some getting used to when I got the new bike
I think ALL full power ebikes are way too easy to pedal, to begin with, but I am still riding my regular MTB. Avinox can also be tuned down like the others, I assume. For example, my Gen 4 CX-Race is way too powerful but I use the Tour mode for most of my riding- down to 40-50 NM max and -5 Assist. It is still easier than my regular MTB though I am not going for speed.
I'm a mountain biker for over two decades and I only value speed on downhills. What I value is not having to recover for 4 days after a hard ride and Zone 2 endurance types of rides so I ride the eMTB. It lets me ride more often for sure. I am older as well now so I like suffering not on every climb. The zone 2 rides help me build endurance while the MTB helps with leg strength.
I am probably in the minority but this is what I enjoy about the eMTB. Speed is not. When I want real speed, I jump on the road bike or gravel bike. No eMTB can come close to that.
I'm a mountain biker for over two decades and I only value speed on downhills. What I value is not having to recover for 4 days after a hard ride and Zone 2 endurance types of rides so I ride the eMTB. It lets me ride more often for sure. I am older as well now so I like suffering not on every climb. The zone 2 rides help me build endurance while the MTB helps with leg strength.
I am probably in the minority but this is what I enjoy about the eMTB. Speed is not. When I want real speed, I jump on the road bike or gravel bike. No eMTB can come close to that.
Plummet
Flash Git
No not laziness. There was features i could clear on my enduro and dh bike that I couldn't on the Pole voima. Those features needed more speed and pop than what I could generate above motor cut. Some features it wasnt even about more speed it was about the pop. The heavy e just is slower harder to pedal and to pop above motor cut. Its just physics.
If you dont understand you either have trails with enough gravity to get the speed for the feature or you are not hitting big enough features for it to be a problem.
Not much benefit to power on my trails and I have over 95 miles of private trails, plus hundreds of miles of public trails. I still ride my regular MTB with others. Riding an eMTB where I basically just sit and move my legs a bit will make me as weak as a 90 year old and I'll simply have to stop riding MTBs with people.Speed and power! Whatever i ride
95% of my e-biking is at shuttle bike parks, or BC winch and plummet stuff, but perhaps bike setup may also play a role.
My crafty at 49.5 pounds honestly doesn’t feel much different than my 38 pound dreadnought v2.
If anything, I’d say it requires a bit more body English on slower, awkward gaps.
I’d dare to say on “big features” it’s slightly better due to the additional mass carrying speed better, and being less effected by wind.
Plummet
Flash Git
Yeah, I reckon you are endowed with enough elevation for builders not to need to build trails with those types of features.
With that said, I agree with you re the weight of the and set up of the e. I dont any the same problems on my 48 lb e.
SilverWinterSky
New Member
That’s how I see it.
No reason that one bike/system can’t deliver both though is there? Sometimes I’d like to cover 80km with friends. Sometimes I’ve only got an hour and would like to rip…
So I’d like both. If Bosch can give me a little more at the Turbo end, I’ll be delighted…
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