Bosch Gen 5 Rumour - More Power updates coming!

[elesdee]

Some of you in the industry may have already learned this, but today I got some cool, new info:

- power/torque firmware update coming for CX and CXR in May to get ‘em on par with Avinox and Specialized

- fast charger is coming this year, 12amp. Current ones are either 4amp or 2amp

- new, budget PX motor which is a combo of gen 4 and gen 5 tech, but I’m not sure if it will go on eMTB’s (might be mostly for commuting)

- new batteries are already being prototyped and tested; currently they already have testers riding bikes with a battery that has more capacity than the current 800Wh and yet it’s lighter and smaller. But no word on whether this will be gen 6 tech or backwards compatible with gen 5

 

[Singletrackmind]

Some of you in the industry may have already learned this, but today I got some cool, new info:

- power/torque firmware update coming for CX and CXR in May to get ‘em on par with Avinox and Specialized

- fast charger is coming this year, 12amp. Current ones are either 4amp or 2amp

- new, budget PX motor which is a combo of gen 4 and gen 5 tech, but I’m not sure if it will go on eMTB’s (might be mostly for commuting)

- new batteries are already being prototyped and tested; currently they already have testers riding bikes with a battery that has more capacity than the current 800Wh and yet it’s lighter and smaller. But no word on whether this will be gen 6 tech or backwards compatible with gen 5

Can you provide more detailed information on what the power/torque update is?

 

[elesdee]

Can you provide more detailed information on what the power/torque update is?

All I was told that it’s meant to compete with the power and torque values of Avinox and Specialized. No actual numbers though.

 

[Singletrackmind]

All I was told that it’s meant to compete with the power and torque values of Avinox and Specialized. No actual numbers though.

Thanks for the follow up. I heard they are upping the torque to 120nm, but keeping power at 750W.

 

[RustyIron]

Thanks for the follow up. I heard they are upping the torque to 120nm, but keeping power at 750W.

That will be nice for some situations. Overall, I don't expect it to make much difference for me. As it is, I always need to remain cognizant of the remaining battery. If I bumped up the assistance, most rides I'd come up short. And then there is the ridablity. Race Mode is often too much assistance to ride technical trails. Today was another story--it was a modest length ride on intermediate trails. I was able to use race mode for about 20% of the ride. But that's an exception.

 

[Singletrackmind]

That will be nice for some situations. Overall, I don't expect it to make much difference for me. As it is, I always need to remain cognizant of the remaining battery. If I bumped up the assistance, most rides I'd come up short. And then there is the ridablity. Race Mode is often too much assistance to ride technical trails. Today was another story--it was a modest length ride on intermediate trails. I was able to use race mode for about 20% of the ride. But that's an exception.

Concur with your feedback on Race mode. It's a beast that has its sweet spots but needs to be used wisely.

I have a Powermore 250 I used for extended rides that really comes in handy and the additional weight doesn't really impact ride quality.

Only downside is it doesn't fit every bike frame design that has a Bosch Gen 4/5 motor. Works great on my Wild, not such a great fit on my Crestline S180.

 

[Rando_12345]

My maxed out gen5 overheats into limp mode in under 10 minutes in the summer (riding in the Alps, 75kg rider, 30deg celcius), so I really don't see them having much headroom for more power or torque...

Personally a 900Wh battery would be a huge upgrade, but I think the market would be more in favour of the 600 becoming a 700wh so that all the skinnier Santa Cruz and Orbea bikes could be more competitive without a redesign.

They need to make an announcement before the Avinox announcement though, even if the tech arrives later.

 

[zizajaun]

Someone in the industry told me 120nm (or 130, I forget) and 1000w, but someone else told me it wasn't confirmed yet.

I think the option of a higher assistance ratio (currently 4x) would be the biggest software upgrade for the Bosch. I'm 110kg (245lb) and the current motor is more than strong enough for technical climbing but too slow and tiring if you're lapping bike park/enduro trails all day with steep fire road climbs. If I get an ebike it will probably be an Avinox, primarily because it can give up to 8x assistance. I think the Specialized 3.1 motor allows something like 6-7x.

I do wonder if 12a charging is really possible with the current Bosch batteries. The amount of current a pack can accept safely depends on the cells, nickel/copper connectors, BMS, and various other bits of hardware. If the current batteries were able to take 12a I would have expected a fast charger before now, to help compete with Avinox. So maybe it will only be for a new generation of batteries with upgraded components?

With the right component choices, charging at 20 amps or more is possible, allowing a full charge in well under an hour (i.e. lunch break). But those cells tend to have lower capacity (i.e. fewer watt-hours) and cost more, so there is a trade-off.

 

[DylanJM]

I think that PX motor already got spec'd on those new budget Merida trail bikes that were launched recently

 

[west]

Bosch have confirmed some markets will have unlocked speeds up to 45km/hr.

 

[Beaker2135]

For me I think the power is fine and they would be better to focus on better integration with Garmin, SRAM and the like instead of playing the numbers game
That’s the point I thought they were making with Hans Rey only a week or so ago about ebike definitions

 

[Bogdan_CH]

Bosch have confirmed some markets will have unlocked speeds up to 45km/hr.

like ? I only wish 20 mph / 32 km/h US speed in Europe as current 25 km/h is a bit slow on some trails . Anything above that makes it a bit of a motor bike.

 

[Bogdan_CH]

For me I think the power is fine and they would be better to focus on better integration with Garmin, SRAM and the like instead of playing the numbers game
That’s the point I thought they were making with Hans Rey only a week or so ago about ebike definitions

Totally agree. Wish I could share the Garmin experience on my Kiox and vice - versa.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

Hans Rey’s already reaching for another envelope.

 

[west]

like ? I only wish 20 mph / 32 km/h US speed in Europe as current 25 km/h is a bit slow on some trails . Anything above that makes it a bit of a motor bike.

While not great for trail use, the additional speed is nice for fire roads and also those who commute to trails etc.

 

[Rando_12345]

While not great for trail use, the additional speed is nice for fire roads and also those who commute to trails etc.

Agree but absolutely not happening in europe, in France cycle lanes often have speed limits down at 10km/h (busy seaside walking areas) and the police do come out every so often to yell at the cyclists. So I don't see any world where we get to 30km/h.

I think Specialised's implementation is good, and could easily be codified into law despite the minor complexity for the average user: 750W available as long as you go under 25km/h, then something like 200W available up until 35km/h or something. Try explaining that to a european politician though...

 

[DylanJM]

Hans Rey’s already reaching for another envelope.

And there's plenty of others taking envelopes from Avinox, Specialized, etc. It's how this industry functions unfortunately.

 

[elesdee]

Hans Rey’s already reaching for another envelope.

My thread title got renamed with the word “rumour” added to it. I guess I should’ve mentioned I got all this information from a Bosch representative in an official, formal setting. None of this is rumours.

But I do, like many people on here, enjoy the rumours of new products more than the new products themselves

 

[mtbbiker]

I hope this is true! I also hope for the US market, class 3 speed will be an option. I’d setup turbo only to take advantage of the power upgrade, keep the rest of the modes the same. Range is important to me. I personally hit 20 mph, on majority of my downhill trails. One place I ride, most of the jumps to clear require just over 20mph to clear jumps safely.

 

[DylanJM]

I hope this is true! I also hope for the US market, class 3 speed will be an option. I’d setup turbo only to take advantage of the power upgrade, keep the rest of the modes the same. Range is important to me. I personally hit 20 mph, on majority of my downhill trails. One place I ride, most of the jumps to clear require just over 20mph to clear jumps safely.

Surely you can easily hit 20mph+ downhill on your bike without needing motor power?

 

[Natch]

I'm most excited about the battery news.

 

[ZR1]

Bosch make great stuff but they are a slow moving beast, only now getting serious rumours of fast charging way after avinox and specialized. IMO fast charging makes bikes like the vala with 600wh integrated batteries more attractive.

 

[LautSprecher]

Hope they fix the logic when an Range Extender is attached. At the moment the RE and the internal battery gets drained simultaneously. If they changed to the logic of TQ fE where the RE gets first drained and then the internal battery would make this system (with the fast charger) the best one avaible.
I am not sure who really needs 10.000W and 10.000Nm. Cannot see this much power in any use case to be honest.

 

[Suns_PSD]

They have no choice as buyers are choosing power over all else.

Bosch doesn't need a new motor. But programming, battery & charger are great places to upgrade.

All of the motors overheat at those power levels when ran flat out, but most riders don't have conditions where they can run flat out straight up a hill for an extended period of time.

I just hope that Bosch provides an upgraded battery that drops in where my old 600wh battery in my incoming Wild resides. It would be hella disappointing if they left all of the 600wh bikes unable to upgrade.

Competition moves the goalpost. Pretty sure that Bosch has lost a lot of customers and really had no choice in the matter. I mean, they are losing Orbea, or at least sharing Orbea! That has to hurt.

 

[mtbbiker]

Surely you can easily hit 20mph+ downhill on your bike without needing motor power?

Not all downhills are super steep. I ride Laguna Beach famous Telonic trail often and that particular trail, you don’t need to pedal at all to surpass 20mph. I just looked at my Strava time on that trail, top speed was 30mph without spinning the pedals.

But many DH trails will have steep sections mixed in with not so steep. In those areas, yes going over 20mph is brutal and not worth pedaling through.

Every Ebike I’ve owned, has been de-restricted for this reason. And yes, I’ve tried keeping all the e-bikes stock, but nothing is more scary coming up to a jump that requires more than 20mph and hitting that 20mph cut off. I can’t imagine EU with 15.5mph cut off. For me, a must is being able to get around US 20mph cut off. Hopefully Bosch will have an option class 3 mode for US.

 

[xtraman122]

I'm most excited about the battery news.

Same here, as that was the only big downfall of their current platform, that large battery was just a beast and led to frame designers having to choose between a good looking bike or decent capacity. The crappy part is frame manufacturers won’t be pleased they now have a new form factor to design around, I’m sure they won’t be thrilled to have to go make new bikes already to fit a new battery. They’re used to long lifecycles of the Bosch platform.

 

[Joecrow]

Hope they fix the logic when an Range Extender is attached. At the moment the RE and the internal battery gets drained simultaneously. If they changed to the logic of TQ fE where the RE gets first drained and then the internal battery would make this system (with the fast charger) the best one avaible.

As I understand it that is not correct. The main battery will be discharged first until it reaches the same level of charge as the PowerMore RE battery, at which point both will be drained simultaneously. This avoids the need to restrict max. power at 80% which is the limitation of the PowerMore RE if it is used alone.

 

[Folklore]

I suspect no more torque or power via firmware, but tweaks to the power modes and how the motor engages in certain situation.

 

[Deleted member 37410]

Humans like when the numbers go up. What was fun 2020 is not fun anymore, now that bigger numbers are available

I had the CYC photon at 1200 W or something like that -- now I have the old Brose at 600W peak I think? And I don't actually miss the power of the photon. Not sure why. I would not mind a bit more, but I much rather want more range, get rid of the derailleur (mgu), and proper rock/bash guard under the bike. Things like that really affect what I can do with the bike

 

[TheKaiser]

Wow, that would be quite an about face for Bosch, after strongly lobbying for an industry wide 750w limit last summer (and perhaps even more recently depending on how much they had to do with Hans' letter) and tightly restricting SX and CX bikes to only Class 1 usage. To now up the power to presumably around 1000w (if they're hoping to match Avinox and Specialized) and offer 45kmh (Class 3) in some markets would be wild! I've always gotten the impression that they were a very slow, conservative, deliberate, company (kind of akin to Shimano), so they must be feeling some seriously life threatening market pressure to be considering these changes so quickly after taking the opposite stance.