The power increase is nice though useless for me. I am more interested in the weight decrease and range increase with the new battery, as well as the efficiency of the new motor, to a degree. Zero interest in the Avinox at this point..not a very efficient motor and no range extender to boot. I'm sticking with Bosch and maybe TQ if I go light (Yeti MTe).
Bosch Gen 5 Rumour - More Power updates coming!
- Thread starter elesdee
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Late to the party...
I think it will be good for the value of our bikes, and of course the unsold Bosch ones
my last bike had a cheap ananda m100 motor, and it feels like my new bike (Bosch gen 5) really lacking power.
I get the mapping, I get the whole traditional bike feel... but I kind of think, but it's not. it's an e-bike, a whole new class of bike, we should have the option to put in the work, or let it tractor us around as we wish.
Not bagging Bosch, love this motor and system, and on loose hills, they are great, but long flat rail trails.., let me tractor
I think it will be good for the value of our bikes, and of course the unsold Bosch ones
my last bike had a cheap ananda m100 motor, and it feels like my new bike (Bosch gen 5) really lacking power.
I get the mapping, I get the whole traditional bike feel... but I kind of think, but it's not. it's an e-bike, a whole new class of bike, we should have the option to put in the work, or let it tractor us around as we wish.
Not bagging Bosch, love this motor and system, and on loose hills, they are great, but long flat rail trails.., let me tractor
TheKaiser
Active member
I'd never heard of the Ananda before, but from the specs I just found, it has 110-130nm and 250-500w of power. Assuming those numbers are accurate, Bosch already dwarfs the Ananda in wattage, so it seems like it must be the torque (nm) difference you are feeling. I am curious, though, you mentioned wanting more drive on "long flat rail trails" but I'd expect that either of them would rapidly get you up to the top restricted speed with little effort on flat trails, no?Late to the party...
I think it will be good for the value of our bikes, and of course the unsold Bosch ones
my last bike had a cheap ananda m100 motor, and it feels like my new bike (Bosch gen 5) really lacking power.
I get the mapping, I get the whole traditional bike feel... but I kind of think, but it's not. it's an e-bike, a whole new class of bike, we should have the option to put in the work, or let it tractor us around as we wish.
Not bagging Bosch, love this motor and system, and on loose hills, they are great, but long flat rail trails.., let me tractor
Assuming your bikes both have the same speed restrictions, I would have assumed that it would be steep uphill terrain, or accelerating repeatedly out of very tight low-speed corners, where you'd notice the torque difference.
Hey, yeah... I cut myself off short really,
I think you are correct, it is a combination of torque, and the way the power is delivered.
In my first bike, it was nowhere near as polished as Bosch, a bit more of a dump of assistance that constant monitoring. I think more cadence based, supplied with big power for little effort.
Most of the time I was on level 1, like an eco, for exercise and well, the bike feel.
But the trails home and the hills, I would throw it in full power mode and unleash all of the beans for the boring bits.
This is what I meant by flat trails...... it the trails..., then the roads.... then the hills after the fun bits!
I just want a get me the f"$k home mode
Bosch Boost is pretty great, but hey more torque and hills..... delicious
Thanks for your reply mate.
Oh and the bike displays 800w - 850w on maxHey, yeah... I cut myself off short really,
I think you are correct, it is a combination of torque, and the way the power is delivered.
In my first bike, it was nowhere near as polished as Bosch, a bit more of a dump of assistance that constant monitoring. I think more cadence based, supplied with big power for little effort.
Most of the time I was on level 1, like an eco, for exercise and well, the bike feel.
But the trails home and the hills, I would throw it in full power mode and unleash all of the beans for the boring bits.
This is what I meant by flat trails...... it the trails..., then the roads.... then the hills after the fun bits!
I just want a get me the f"$k home mode
Bosch Boost is pretty great, but hey more torque and hills..... delicious
Thanks for your reply mate.
TheKaiser
Active member
That makes sense. So it will be interesting to see if Bosch does another update and how it feels to you. It can get a little wonky trying to compare motors just via peak numbers, because a lot of what we feel when riding them relates to the power curve and how suddently it ramps up when accelerating. If you haven't seen the ebike-lab tests, you should check out this chart (E-Bike Motor Power Test - Who is the strongest? | E-Bike Lab), which provides a great example of how wildly different motors can be in relation to the rider input vs. motor output. For example, Avinox is already pumping out 600w at a rider input of 50w, whereas Specialized doesn't get to 600w until the rider is putting out 100-120w (depending on model) and Bosch doesn't get there until about 170w. So you'd need to be pedaling 2x or even 3x as hard to feel the same zip on those latter models. That Avinox power curve also looks ideal for spinning your back wheel on low-traction climbs, but reviews seem to suggest they have good traction and sensitivity in those conditions. I'm not sure if that is due to some sort of wheelspin detection algorithm, or if the reviewers are using more of a "trail" type power setting in those conditions as, from my recollection, the ebike-lab tests are for the highest power (turbo type) setting, so bumping down to trail or eco would be a whole different picture.Hey, yeah... I cut myself off short really,
I think you are correct, it is a combination of torque, and the way the power is delivered.
In my first bike, it was nowhere near as polished as Bosch, a bit more of a dump of assistance that constant monitoring. I think more cadence based, supplied with big power for little effort.
Most of the time I was on level 1, like an eco, for exercise and well, the bike feel.
But the trails home and the hills, I would throw it in full power mode and unleash all of the beans for the boring bits.
This is what I meant by flat trails...... it the trails..., then the roads.... then the hills after the fun bits!
I just want a get me the f"$k home mode
Bosch Boost is pretty great, but hey more torque and hills..... delicious
Thanks for your reply mate.
Thanks for the reply, and that link is excellent.
Really does explain what I feel on the Bosch.
I imagine the ananda would be similar to the Avinox. ... wow the Avinox really gives it up early
I guess a lot of it comes to bike fitness, I have spent too long living the easy life on the tractor!
I must admit, researching that Bosch likes higher cadence, I felt like my little trotters were going to spin off.
My cadence comfort is like early 60's
This is for cruisey rides mind you.
Can't fault both motors, just different beasts.
But for those long steep hills like the ba$&tard near my house, more torque/assistance would be greatly appreciated, and for my sprints home.
Raptor
Active member
Current power on Gen5 is fine for me - 20mph cut off and bigger battery is what I'd like them to focus more on.
What do you think Bosch should do about the speed cut off?
Raptor
Active member
make it easier to bypass like Avinox. No amount of EU lobbying will get this done officially. Politicians are media driven by thick journos who continue to peddle the 'ebikes are dangerous' line
We have enough people aligned against e-bikes. At this point, the support is also a decent amount so at least here in the US and in Colorado specifically, many places (trails) are opening up to Class 1 ebikes. They are even now allowed in almost 100 miles of private and patrolled single track in my community. If we get out of hand with the power (and this applies more to public trails) and have a few incidents of crashes with hikers or other bikers, the blame will likely fall on the e-bike rider eventually. If the motor can be de-restricted, it is no longer a Class 1 but they will all be lumped together.
85NM, 100NM or 110NM is not a big deal but the guys who want more power for more speed, will eventually bring us trouble. If we have bikes producing 150-200 NM- those buyers want it for outright speed. On single track, that will bering us trouble and get trails closed to ebikes again. All it will take is a few crashes, a lawsuit, and some complaints from the reinvigorated anti-ebike crowd.
85NM, 100NM or 110NM is not a big deal but the guys who want more power for more speed, will eventually bring us trouble. If we have bikes producing 150-200 NM- those buyers want it for outright speed. On single track, that will bering us trouble and get trails closed to ebikes again. All it will take is a few crashes, a lawsuit, and some complaints from the reinvigorated anti-ebike crowd.
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tyrolrider
New Member
I would highly appreciate Bosch full-power bikes with slimmer downtubes. I’m honestly a bit tired of these oversized “stove pipe” downtubes - as we tend to call them in Germany.
I recently spoke with a Bosch representative. While he couldn’t share any technical details, he also didn’t deny when I mentioned figures like 120 Nm and 820-850 W peak. That would make a lot of sense in my view, as it gives more flexibility, better momentum, and a smoother flow on steep climbs.
For context, I currently ride Gen4 CX, Gen5, and an Avinox PL Pro -and I genuinely like all of them. That said, I could definitely do without the rattle of the Gen4. The Gen5 and especially the Avinox bike are impressively quiet on descents.
So yes, it’s good to see Bosch evolving their power specs. It’s simply the reality of the market they need to address.
However, I think we are focusing on the wrong issue when discussing 750 W limits in Europe. That Train has left Station a while ago.
What I’ve been observing over the past one to two years- especially in Austria, South Tyrol, Trentino, and Ticino - is a massive increase in Surron, electric trials, and even motocross bikes on alpine trails and summits.
Last year alone, during two months in Southern Italy, I saw more of these vehicles on mountain trails than in my entire 30 years of mountain biking.
In the Tyrolean Ötztal, I encountered a group of Surron riders climbing a well-known trail - one I’ve been riding for over 20 years -with complete ease, as if it were the most natural thing in the world. Fifteen years ago, hunters would have figuratively shot you off your MTB if they had encountered you there. Now: Surrons - no problem.
I’ve also come across motocross riders on highly technical S3 trails leading to peaks in the Vinschgau region, with over 1000 vertical meters - terrain where even experienced alpine riders are fully challenged on the descent. Yet somehow, they ride up. And when you ride down a trail they’ve climbed, it looks like a motocross track.
You can clearly see it on the trails: the damage patterns have changed as have the use cases. The impact from these types of bikes has increased significantly over the last two years.
To me, this is the real challenge we are facing in alpine regions like Austria, Italy, and Switzerland – not whether eMTBs have 750 W or slightly more.
At least from what I’ve seen, local authorities are currently not addressing this development at all. And in some cases, you can probably guess why – especially if the mayor’s son or local farmers’ kids are riding Surrons.
I recently spoke with a Bosch representative. While he couldn’t share any technical details, he also didn’t deny when I mentioned figures like 120 Nm and 820-850 W peak. That would make a lot of sense in my view, as it gives more flexibility, better momentum, and a smoother flow on steep climbs.
For context, I currently ride Gen4 CX, Gen5, and an Avinox PL Pro -and I genuinely like all of them. That said, I could definitely do without the rattle of the Gen4. The Gen5 and especially the Avinox bike are impressively quiet on descents.
So yes, it’s good to see Bosch evolving their power specs. It’s simply the reality of the market they need to address.
However, I think we are focusing on the wrong issue when discussing 750 W limits in Europe. That Train has left Station a while ago.
What I’ve been observing over the past one to two years- especially in Austria, South Tyrol, Trentino, and Ticino - is a massive increase in Surron, electric trials, and even motocross bikes on alpine trails and summits.
Last year alone, during two months in Southern Italy, I saw more of these vehicles on mountain trails than in my entire 30 years of mountain biking.
In the Tyrolean Ötztal, I encountered a group of Surron riders climbing a well-known trail - one I’ve been riding for over 20 years -with complete ease, as if it were the most natural thing in the world. Fifteen years ago, hunters would have figuratively shot you off your MTB if they had encountered you there. Now: Surrons - no problem.
I’ve also come across motocross riders on highly technical S3 trails leading to peaks in the Vinschgau region, with over 1000 vertical meters - terrain where even experienced alpine riders are fully challenged on the descent. Yet somehow, they ride up. And when you ride down a trail they’ve climbed, it looks like a motocross track.
You can clearly see it on the trails: the damage patterns have changed as have the use cases. The impact from these types of bikes has increased significantly over the last two years.
To me, this is the real challenge we are facing in alpine regions like Austria, Italy, and Switzerland – not whether eMTBs have 750 W or slightly more.
At least from what I’ve seen, local authorities are currently not addressing this development at all. And in some cases, you can probably guess why – especially if the mayor’s son or local farmers’ kids are riding Surrons.
OffitThatM8
Member
Having had my first ebike now for 2 months I'm cool with the power, maybe a bit more torque on the steeper stuff would be good though, and prolonged output, for me I got an emtb to spend more time riding down hill and trails and less time grinding back to the top again for laps, with the added bonus of the ability to do a 50km ride without blowing my legs up allowing me to then go and run 10k the next day and not hate life. so on the prolonged output bit turbo and emtb+ give me the same exact range and tbh I can't tell the difference between them, apparently thats something to do with how many watts I put in while pedalling forces emtb+ to run at near max most of the time.
I sometimes find on long climbs when I've been smashing it when it gets a bit steeper it's almost like the bike loses some power, if I stop for a while on a long climb before starting again it's there instantly, I assumed without researching it that it's something to do with peak power or torque output being capped like 750w peak so a higher sustained output would be nice whichever number it is that makes it feel like it bogs down.
Personally I'm not too arsed about slimmer down tubes unless they can make the battery removable too. I'm not about wrapping my downtube in a heated blanket in winter to charge up to prevent lithium plating on the battery. I know a lot of people complain about bulky ebikes and the weight etc but I grew up riding trials motorbikes which are around 65-75kg and getting my first ebike reminded a bit like riding a trials bike again and I quickly readapted. The only thing I'm keen for with smaller downtubes and less weight would be the ability to increase range and get even more laps in or explore further
I sometimes find on long climbs when I've been smashing it when it gets a bit steeper it's almost like the bike loses some power, if I stop for a while on a long climb before starting again it's there instantly, I assumed without researching it that it's something to do with peak power or torque output being capped like 750w peak so a higher sustained output would be nice whichever number it is that makes it feel like it bogs down.
Personally I'm not too arsed about slimmer down tubes unless they can make the battery removable too. I'm not about wrapping my downtube in a heated blanket in winter to charge up to prevent lithium plating on the battery. I know a lot of people complain about bulky ebikes and the weight etc but I grew up riding trials motorbikes which are around 65-75kg and getting my first ebike reminded a bit like riding a trials bike again and I quickly readapted. The only thing I'm keen for with smaller downtubes and less weight would be the ability to increase range and get even more laps in or explore further
The loss of power you are noticing is likely thermal regulation. All the motors begin to do it after about 5 minutes when all out.
Unfortunately more power will just make it come sooner unless they build physically larger motors, add cooling systems, significantly improve efficiency, or the like.
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Perhaps this is a dream from someone living in the hottest major city in the US (Phoenix AZ), but I’d like to see a system incorporated that uses the cold gasses from a CO2 cartridge to periodically cool the motor. Until then I’ll just squirt some water on the case.
TheKaiser
Active member
The thermal regulation that Suns PSD mentioned is the same thing I was thinking. Some of the Velomotion.net motor tests show how different motor controller systems handle heat buildup differently over a 15min period, which I found pretty interesting. In the below image, you can see how most motors steadily trend downward when run at a continuous 250w INPUT power (so remember that some of them will have been outputting much more than others), but the Bosch CX Gen 5 abruptly falls off at around the 8min mark, and doesn't recover (this test does not give it a break to cool off). The Avinox, on the other hand, seems to derate and recover in a sort of erratic wave pattern almost constantly. Shimano looks strong, then abruptly drops off at around 14min, then 30 sec later recovers. If we throw out the Pinion as it is really a whole different beast, you will notice that the motors that derate the most or fastest also tend to be the lightest ones, so I'm inclined to think that what we're seeing here is the tradeoff for having so little thermal mass to absorb and buffer the heat. The Gobao that Aventon (and Alutech and others) are now re-branding, while having similar peak power and torque to the Avinox, actually may be way more powerful if you take a 15min average, rather than just looking at the instantaneous peaks. If one is power hungry and does long steep climbs in hot temps, it's really looking like a pretty sweet package if they can refine their pedal sensitivity and work on their rattle. It seems like 300g well spent if they can dial in those elements.
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Careful where you squirt your water. The air pressure inside a hot motor drops as it cools and this can suck in any moisture that is at any point of ingress: eg the crank shaft bearings. And water ingress is a major cause of motor failure.
TheKaiser
Active member
Yeah, liquid CO2 like is used in drag racing might be a better choice, or one could pack the casing with dry ice in advance!
Raptor
Active member
when is the new Amflow being released again?
SilverWinterSky
New Member
So we could get a “new tech” PowerMore with more than 250Wh….?
Alongside a power/torque upgrade?
That would be an awesome combination….!
Alongside a power/torque upgrade?
That would be an awesome combination….!
Depends what you mean by 'this'. My Velduro Rogue with a new Avinox motor is being delivered on the 9th, so that's definitely the official Avinox date. I'm not sure when the Bosch updates are being officially announced. Hopefully by Sea Otter (mid/late April) but a Santa Cruz rep said there was going to be an announcement in May (not certain it's motor related). I'm also unsure whether all the new Avinox bikes (e.g. from Whyte, Orange, etc) will be announced on the 9th or at Sea Otter; I think I heard the Whyte was going to be Sea Otter.
I was referring to the power update. I doubt I will use it much, but the idea of a free upgrade certainly has my interest. I am most excited about the fast charger and potential class 3 mode.
I'm also interested in how fast the fast charger will be. My main reservation about the Velduro is the fixed battery. Even the 'fast' charger is only 12 amps (at only 36v) so about 500 W. It therefore takes about 1h 45m to get a full charge, which is more than a standard lunch break. And I'm over 110kg so I will often use three full batteries in a day, i.e. two recharges, so that's 3.5h wasted waiting around. The only decent Avinox-powered bike with a removable battery is the Crestline, but I'm between sizes and it's expensive and hard to get. So if Bosch increased power to Avinox levels, and had faster charging, and was easy to derestrict, I'd be tempted.
Not sure if you've been on a Gen 5 Bosch, but 100nm at 750 watts is definitely a little unruly in steep climbs. You really have to get over the front of the bike to keep it from lifting the front wheel. Not much of an issue on most climbs, but here in central Texas we have some very steep and punchy ups.
I feel you on the weight thing. I am about 100kg and can definitely use up the battery quickly when having a lot of fun. I can use emtb at 85nm/600watts and get a solid 25 miles. I did manage a 52 mile ride two weekends ago by using mostly eco+ and tour + set to 65nm/500watts and 70nm/500 watts respectively
I demoed 3 bikes with the updated Bosch and they felt really slow on the steep fire road climbs when lapping enduro trails. But I'm used to my CYC X1 Stealth motor, which is 150nm/1500w. For trail riding I don't use more than about 400w but for lapping bike park/enduro tracks I want to zoom up to the top as quickly as possible.
That makes sense. We don't really have much of that around here. The place with the steepest, punchiest climbs is probably the closest thing to that. Getting up to the top to make more runs requires going up some of the downhill trails. When I say downhill trails I mean .5 miles and 200 ft haha
I like working on the climbs since I still ride my regular MTB. My usual climb on the trails behind my house is 2,000 - 2,500 ft and the descents are bomber...2-3 miles of just insane fun. The Pivot Shuttle AM is pretty ideal travel wise but 5-8 fewer lbs of weight would be great. I'd give up power for that and may soon. I have now gotten 5,000 ft of climbing in my de-tuned mode with 22% battery left. The lights go orange at maybe 30% but not sure when the power level is reduced.
I am on a Shuttle AM as well. Just picked up a switchblade yesterday to go with it because I liked the way the bike rode so much. Keeping up with your analogue riding is important! I was on a SL1 and then SL2 for years and I finally got back into unassisted riding. I had developed a lot of bad habits from the E bike, most notably easing off the pedals at the top of technical sections and letting the motor carry me back up to speed.
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