Bosch Gen 5 Rumour - More Power updates coming!

[big_scot_nanny]

they must be feeling some seriously life threatening market pressure to be considering these changes so quickly after taking the opposite stance.

I think that must be the number one reason. It's also the reason I am glad, as having just finally bought the only ebike that has the geo and features and I want/need that happens to have a Gen 5 Bosch, I would rather like them to stay in the eeb business to support my warranty claims. I know, selfish, but not unrealistic!

The pressure must be enormous and immediate. How many excited threads do you see about a new bike with a Bosch motor?

Do we need the upgrade? absolutely not. My gen 5 Bosch in rare moments of top power mode already feels a jump in support magnitude from my old 2022 Giant Reign E+, like the giant was from a meat bike.

 

[Suns_PSD]

Wow, that would be quite an about face for Bosch, after strongly lobbying for an industry wide 750w limit last summer (and perhaps even more recently depending on how much they had to do with Hans' letter) and tightly restricting SX and CX bikes to only Class 1 usage. To now up the power to presumably around 1000w (if they're hoping to match Avinox and Specialized) and offer 45kmh (Class 3) in some markets would be wild! I've always gotten the impression that they were a very slow, conservative, deliberate, company (kind of akin to Shimano), so they must be feeling some seriously life threatening market pressure to be considering these changes so quickly after taking the opposite stance.

Being honorable doesn't matter if you have no customers any longer.

The thing about the power race is that most will turn it down anyways, 1000+ watts is just a party trick, let's get real.

 

[Plummet]

Surely you can easily hit 20mph+ downhill on your bike without needing motor power?

Some bigger features on some dh tracks require more speed above motor cut than what gravity provides. A heavy e bike sucks to pedal and pop.

When I had my pole even though it was like a dh bike I couldn't clear some of the bigger features on some dh tracks thar I could on my dh or enduro bikes. In that instance a 45kph top speed would be nice to at least get the ebike equivalent to what an mtb can do.

That was the biggest irony with that bike. Dh capabile but couldn't hit some dh features above motor cut and pedal suck.

Move onto my bosch crestline. Its lighter on pedals and pops fine above motor cut. I can hit all the dh features on the cresty that I can on my dh or enduro bikes.

 

[irie]

Wow, that would be quite an about face for Bosch, after strongly lobbying for an industry wide 750w limit last summer (and perhaps even more recently depending on how much they had to do with Hans' letter) and tightly restricting SX and CX bikes to only Class 1 usage. To now up the power to presumably around 1000w (if they're hoping to match Avinox and Specialized) and offer 45kmh (Class 3) in some markets would be wild! I've always gotten the impression that they were a very slow, conservative, deliberate, company (kind of akin to Shimano), so they must be feeling some seriously life threatening market pressure to be considering these changes so quickly after taking the opposite stance.

My guess is that this is Bosch's response to the (rumoured) entry of DJI into the commuter/city bike market where the vast majority of Bosch sales are made.

 

[Plummet]

Now re this update.

There's 2 times i'd like more power and speed.

Racing a 45kph cut out bike with 120nm boost button aint a fair race when you have 32kph cut out and 100nm.
Riding with my avinox mates that just love to go full brain melter power everywhere.

That's it. For the rest of my riding i'm de tuning down and going riding in low power modes.

I would love better energy density batteries. I doubt very much that bosch will make them backwards compatible. They havent made one battery backwards compatible yet even with the same energy density.

Side note. I reckon I overheated my gen 5 bosch the other day. Did a full 100nm turbo brain melter ride in about 28 Deg C. It was steep fire road up followed by steep down, up down up down up down... so no cool down time for the battery/motor, got to around 25% battery left and the motor/battery said... how about no to 100nm and backed power off to make no difference between 70nm and 100nm modes.
So... any more power will be there for a good time not a long time as it'l just derate its self as the temp gets too high.

 

[TheMirrorVision]

I think that must be the number one reason. It's also the reason I am glad, as having just finally bought the only ebike that has the geo and features and I want/need that happens to have a Gen 5 Bosch, I would rather like them to stay in the eeb business to support my warranty claims. I know, selfish, but not unrealistic!

The pressure must be enormous and immediate. How many excited threads do you see about a new bike with a Bosch motor?

Do we need the upgrade? absolutely not. My gen 5 Bosch in rare moments of top power mode already feels a jump in support magnitude from my old 2022 Giant Reign E+, like the giant was from a meat bike.

Agreed, and though MTBs are just one segment of Bosch's e-bike product line, the trend you're starting to see is that bikes that used to be Bosch-powered are now launching (or rumored to be launching) Avinox-powered versions as the new models. This is probably not too dissimilar to the pressure Shimano felt (and seemingly never acted on) as new eMTBs switched to Bosch because market forces didn't want Shimano motors any longer.

 

[Suns_PSD]

Now re this update.

There's 2 times i'd like more power and speed.

Racing a 45kph cut out bike with 120nm boost button aint a fair race when you have 32kph cut out and 100nm.
Riding with my avinox mates that just love to go full brain melter power everywhere.

That's it. For the rest of my riding i'm de tuning down and going riding in low power modes.

I would love better energy density batteries. I doubt very much that bosch will make them backwards compatible. They havent made one battery backwards compatible yet even with the same energy density.

Side note. I reckon I overheated my gen 5 bosch the other day. Did a full 100nm turbo brain melter ride in about 28 Deg C. It was steep fire road up followed by steep down, up down up down up down... so no cool down time for the battery/motor, got to around 25% battery left and the motor/battery said... how about no to 100nm and backed power off to make no difference between 70nm and 100nm modes.
So... any more power will be there for a good time not a long time as it'l just derate its self as the temp gets too high.

This isn't correct.

You can drop the current Powermore 600wh battery in place of a Gen4 battery (might require some brackets) and improve density.

It's a known last gen Wild mod, to buy the new battery and pop it right in.

Also, if you look at like a fat Yeti LTe downtube, there is almost certainly room to install a different battery with some replacement brackets or the like.

 

[sethimus]

Surely you can easily hit 20mph+ downhill on your bike without needing motor power?

those who „need“ so much speed mostly never ride downhill

 

[sethimus]

Wow, that would be quite an about face for Bosch, after strongly lobbying for an industry wide 750w limit last summer (and perhaps even more recently depending on how much they had to do with Hans' letter) and tightly restricting SX and CX bikes to only Class 1 usage. To now up the power to presumably around 1000w (if they're hoping to match Avinox and Specialized) and offer 45kmh (Class 3) in some markets would be wild! I've always gotten the impression that they were a very slow, conservative, deliberate, company (kind of akin to Shimano), so they must be feeling some seriously life threatening market pressure to be considering these changes so quickly after taking the opposite stance.

they always offered 45km/h versions of their motors!?

 

[Plummet]

This isn't correct.

You can drop the current Powermore 600wh battery in place of a Gen4 battery (might require some brackets) and improve density.

It's a known last gen Wild mod, to buy the new battery and pop it right in.

Also, if you look at like a fat Yeti LTe downtube, there is almost certainly room to install a different battery with some replacement brackets or the like.

Yeah ok, its not a direct drop in as the sizing and plug orientation changes. Some bikes might be achievable, some not.

 

[Plummet]

those who „need“ so much speed mostly never ride downhill

Its about location. I understand you are in europe with lots of big mountains where elevation loss isnt a problem. So,,,, most dh track features can be hit with gravity alone. There's certainly some dh tracks in nz with big features you need to pedal hard into above 32kph. For those features/ tracks a 32kph cut out on a heavy E is terrible. Lighter E's not a problem. But a heavy pig is worse than a standard mtb above motor cut out.

 

[TheKaiser]

they always offered 45km/h versions of their motors!?

Yeah, they have offered them, but not for emtb use. They don't call them Performance Line CX or SX, they're called Performance Line Speed, and in the Gen 4 they had different gearing inside to accomodate the higher speeds. For the Gen 5 apparently it's just an electronic difference with the hardware being unified, so 45km/h is theoretically possible for the Gen 5 CX without burning it out but, as far as I can tell, Bosch has never been willing to sell 45km/h enabled models for anything other than commuters. My comment about it being wild if they changed their stance was specifically in reference to the CX/SX labeled motors and emtb use.

 

[TheKaiser]

Its about location. I understand you are in europe with lots of big mountains where elevation loss isnt a problem. So,,,, most dh track features can be hit with gravity alone. There's certainly some dh tracks in nz with big features you need to pedal hard into above 32kph. For those features/ tracks a 32kph cut out on a heavy E is terrible. Lighter E's not a problem. But a heavy pig is worse than a standard mtb above motor cut out.

Well I, for one, understand exactly what you are talking about. I have experenced the same thing, usually on trail networks where they have limited vert to work with, and so the trail routes are chosen to meter it out very gradually and keep the downhills sustained for several minutes. On trails like that, one often needs to put in some pedal strokes to keep the speed up, and hitting the 32kph limiter is a very real problem for some features, as well as being generally annoying and distracting from the trail. An example for folks in the states is the Bentonville area, where they are generally working with under 500ft of vert, and the trails also tend to be more wide open machine built trails, that are conducive to higher speeds.

 

[mtbbiker]

Side note. I reckon I overheated my gen 5 bosch the other day. Did a full 100nm turbo brain melter ride in about 28 Deg C. It was steep fire road up followed by steep down, up down up down up down... so no cool down time for the battery/motor, got to around 25% battery left and the motor/battery said... how about no to 100nm and backed power off to make no difference between 70nm and 100nm modes.
So... any more power will be there for a good time not a long time as it'l just derate its self as the temp gets too high.

I rode today in EMTB + mode at 93f (33c) and I could feel on some of the climbs, the power wasn’t there. This is the 1st time for me feeling a possible thermal power loss. My previous motors: gen 4 race and specialized brose.

 

[PeterHenric]

Every Ebike I’ve owned, has been de-restricted for this reason. And yes, I’ve tried keeping all the e-bikes stock, but nothing is more scary coming up to a jump that requires more than 20mph and hitting that 20mph cut off. I can’t imagine EU with 15.5mph cut off. For me, a must is being able to get around US 20mph cut off. Hopefully Bosch will have an option class 3 mode for US.

This! When you hit the power wall and you have a decent size jump coming up, it’s scary. Yes, I know the bike can go faster if I pedal harder but it feels like the motor is actively trying to keep me from going faster.

 

[elesdee]

I rode today in EMTB + mode at 93f (33c) and I could feel on some of the climbs, the power wasn’t there. This is the 1st time for me feeling a possible thermal power loss. My previous motors: gen 4 race and specialized brose.

I was told that gen 5 CX will begin thermal protection as low as 35 C, and fully shut down at 60 C.

Now I don’t know which part exactly has to hit 35 degrees but it definitely seems pretty low!

In this context, increasing power and torque doesn’t seem to make a lot of sense. Most of us ride using fairly reasonable settings it seems, and use full power occasionally for short bursts.

EMTB+ at 33 C is not reasonable enough I guess

 

[Plummet]

This! When you hit the power wall and you have a decent size jump coming up, it’s scary. Yes, I know the bike can go faster if I pedal harder but it feels like the motor is actively trying to keep me from going faster.

Its just the fact you have a heavy bike with heavy tires combined with teny tiny cranks. The bike sucks to pedal and pop. Because pop is lower speed needs to be higher,,,,, which means more pedalling.

Its a bad combo, particularly on 24kg + bikes. I had the 25.5kg voima and that suck arse above motor cut. My 22kg crestline is hardly any different to my mtb......

 

[Bogdan_CH]

I’m trying to figure out if I’m missing something here so you guys are doing flat trails with big jumps so requires way above motor power to clear them ? I think those jumps were not build with motor backed bikes so how do people clear them on acoustic bikes ? Not sure if a EEB is the right tool there regardless of the motor .

PLEASE don’t get me wrong , but I just hope e-bikes Don’t go towards dirt bike / pit bikes replacements for dirt tracks

 

[Plummet]

I’m trying to figure out if I’m missing something here so you guys are doing flat trails with big jumps so requires way above motor power to clear them ? I think those jumps were not build with motor backed bikes so how do people clear them on acoustic bikes ? Not sure if a EEB is the right tool there regardless of the motor .

PLEASE don’t get me wrong , but I just hope e-bikes Don’t go towards dirt bike / pit bikes replacements for dirt tracks

They fast mtb dh tracks that still require additional pedal and pop to clear big features. Mtbs can pedal faster and pop higher than an e bike above cut out.

I'd say we are talking 8mtr gap +

 

[Deleted member 37410]

I wonder how much of Bosch lost market share is due to the hard de-restriction stance? Avinox must be the easiest to de-restrict? Maybe its not actually that big % of buyers, but I have no numbers. It seems more common in 25 kph countries for sure. Though in the US both Avinox and Specialized offer the class 3 thing, which is more or less de-restricted out of the box, while Bosch once again has a harder stance

 

[Deleted member 37410]

Its just the fact you have a heavy bike with heavy tires combined with teny tiny cranks. The bike sucks to pedal and pop. Because pop is lower speed needs to be higher,,,,, which means more pedalling.

Its a bad combo, particularly on 24kg + bikes. I had the 25.5kg voima and that suck arse above motor cut. My 22kg crestline is hardly any different to my mtb......

If I get my Kenevo down to 23.9 kg it will ride like a 15 kg neeb? That would be awesome

 

[sethimus]

Yeah, they have offered them, but not for emtb use. They don't call them Performance Line CX or SX, they're called Performance Line Speed, and in the Gen 4 they had different gearing inside to accomodate the higher speeds. For the Gen 5 apparently it's just an electronic difference with the hardware being unified, so 45km/h is theoretically possible for the Gen 5 CX without burning it out but, as far as I can tell, Bosch has never been willing to sell 45km/h enabled models for anything other than commuters. My comment about it being wild if they changed their stance was specifically in reference to the CX/SX labeled motors and emtb use.

gee, i wonder why that is. must the some laws i think, lol. they just should stop following those, right?

 

[Plummet]

If I get my Kenevo down to 23.9 kg it will ride like a 15 kg neeb? That would be awesome

The heavier the bike the more pedal and pop suck. So go as light as you can.

 

[ntm95]

The speed cutoffs don't bother me.
I find I get pretty darn lazy with my corner speeds and flow with unrestricted bikes. And haven't noticed any issue pedalling my gen 5 bosch above the cutoff.

The fast charger will be great. Motor power increase has no value for me.

 

[steve_sordy]

Wow, that would be quite an about face for Bosch, after strongly lobbying for an industry wide 750w limit last summer (and perhaps even more recently depending on how much they had to do with Hans' letter) and tightly restricting SX and CX bikes to only Class 1 usage. To now up the power to presumably around 1000w (if they're hoping to match Avinox and Specialized) and offer 45kmh (Class 3) in some markets would be wild! I've always gotten the impression that they were a very slow, conservative, deliberate, company (kind of akin to Shimano), so they must be feeling some seriously life threatening market pressure to be considering these changes so quickly after taking the opposite stance.

I agree. I suspect that Bosch are pursuing a longer game. Their strategy will be to ensure that the market for their products keeps going in the markets where they sell well, and is, at least, not negative in growing markets. Which is why they majored on 750W max power.
Like a lot of big companies they may be a bit slower to act than the small ones, but they tend to stay in business for longer because what they do is better thought out, and in line with their broader strategy. They will be doing some serious lobbying in the EU to head off the anti ebike movements. Probably elsewhere too.

Disclaimer: I do not and never have worked for Bosch, nor has anyone in my family, that I am aware of.

 

[irie]

As I said in post #34

My guess is that this is Bosch's response to the (rumoured) entry of DJI into the commuter/city bike market where the vast majority of Bosch sales are made.

 

[Powerslider]

Wow, that would be quite an about face for Bosch, after strongly lobbying for an industry wide 750w limit last summer (and perhaps even more recently depending on how much they had to do with Hans' letter) and tightly restricting SX and CX bikes to only Class 1 usage. To now up the power to presumably around 1000w (if they're hoping to match Avinox and Specialized) and offer 45kmh (Class 3) in some markets would be wild! I've always gotten the impression that they were a very slow, conservative, deliberate, company (kind of akin to Shimano), so they must be feeling some seriously life threatening market pressure to be considering these changes so quickly after taking the opposite stance.

It seems to me the market has spoken. Despite some professing they don’t need more power, sales appear to indicate strongly that buyers find value in more power and torque.

 

[Singletrackmind]

It seems to me the market has spoken. Despite some professing they don’t need more power, sales appear to indicate strongly that buyers find value in more power and torque.

Build it, and they will ride!

 

[Bogdan_CH]

It seems to me the market has spoken. Despite some professing they don’t need more power, sales appear to indicate strongly that buyers find value in more power and torque.

The value term here has such a broad meaning TBH

 

[Alfmeister]

Waiting with baited breath