Bosch Flow App - News & Updates

Spin

Active member
Dec 24, 2021
140
186
Australia
Which mode are you referring to - SPORT? Setting that to +3/+3 would give you nearly TURBO. Definitely more than ‚quite subtle assistance‘.
This one...
Screenshot_20240330-082821~2.png



Nowhere near turbo....
 

TommyC

Active member
Jul 7, 2022
240
167
Hampshire
When the Flow App was introduced I sent an email to Bosch asking how the + values for support worked. Bosch comfirmed in writing that one cannot raise the support level above the technical max of 340% (for a regular CX motor). You can now find that information somewhere in the help FAQs on their website.

It might be possible that a + value for the dynamic parameter has an effect if TURBO isn’t at maximum with factory setting. I didn’t ask for that information.
nobody said anything about maximum assist. Just that they bumped the settings up in the app, which definitely does change how the modes perform.

I changed the settings because it didn’t feel all that different from emtb. The difference now is much more distinct.
 
Last edited:

Bummers

Active member
Mar 12, 2022
526
481
UK
Whether the setting adjusts the torque curve or what I don't know, but it absolutely makes a change to the power delivery.
 

Shark58

Active member
Mar 5, 2023
157
111
Germany
Nowhere near turbo.
Has nothing to do with where it appears in the list.

The main difference between the Bosch modes is the support factor aka assistance.

There are four classic modes which have been available for many years and all of them have a static support factor.

ECO with 60% support
TOUR with 140% support
SPORT with 240% support
TURBO with 340% support

When you change SPORT to +3 the support factor goes up to 312% which for me is nearly TURBO (340%).
 

Shark58

Active member
Mar 5, 2023
157
111
Germany
nobody said anything about maximum assist. Just that they bumped the settings up in the app, which definitely does change how the modes perform.
It was said ‘bumped up TURBO‘, not any random mode.

There are four different parameters that can be modified for any mode.
  1. Assistance, which is the one most everybody changes to get more power and which has a range from -5 to +5
  2. Dynamic with a range from -5 to +5
  3. Maximum torque, which is factory set to 85 Nm on all modes and can only be reduced
  4. Maximum speed, which is factory set to 25 kph in Europe / 20 mph in the US and can only be reduced
For this discussion we can forget 3. and 4. as they cannot be ‘bumped up‘.
Assistance in TURBO is factory set to 340% which is the technical maximum of the Bosch CX motor. Therefore the presented range in the Flow App above 0 is misleading. Any + value setting will not change the assistance. See here: I have increased the Assistance and/or Dynamic parameter. Why do I not feel any difference?
This leaves us with dynamic. It might be possible that even in TURBO the factory setting for dynamic is not set to maximum. Changing that parameter to a + value will then give you a noticeable quicker response to changes in pedal input. On the other hand this is a short lived effect, after a few milliseconds the motor returns to its regular steady power level.

So yes, I agree, one can feel a slight increase in motor response but definitely there is no sustained power increase in TURBO possible.

Of course this is all quite different for other modes, which are not factory set to the 340% maximum assistance.
 

DieBoy

New Member
Jul 14, 2023
57
69
EU
As an aside, I wish it was possible to rename the modes in the App.

Mine would be:
Eco -> Damm forgot to charge the battery
Tour -> Commute
EMTB -> Fun
Turbo -> Shit I'm late!

;)
 

Mikerb

E*POWAH Elite World Champion
May 16, 2019
6,131
4,660
Weymouth
Most of my riding is forest downhill runs and short but steep techy climbs.....often needing similar technique to trials type riding...e.g. stopping on the brakes to reposition the bike ( ps I do not profess to have any trials riding skills!!).

I tried setting EMTB to +3/+3 and it is amazing! Unlike turbo power, delivery from a standstill on a climb is much more controllable and it is easier getting to full/turbo support than with EMTB set as per factory. The net result is that I never have to change mode in the forest...dont need the turbo mode.
Battery range is probably reduced but most of my forest rides only use about 40% battery anyway so its not an issue. If I do a longer XC type ride I would use Tour+ for all the flat sections and EMTB for uphill sections so again the 750w/h battery is plenty.
 

TommyC

Active member
Jul 7, 2022
240
167
Hampshire
It was said ‘bumped up TURBO‘, not any random mode.

There are four different parameters that can be modified for any mode.
  1. Assistance, which is the one most everybody changes to get more power and which has a range from -5 to +5
  2. Dynamic with a range from -5 to +5
  3. Maximum torque, which is factory set to 85 Nm on all modes and can only be reduced
  4. Maximum speed, which is factory set to 25 kph in Europe / 20 mph in the US and can only be reduced
For this discussion we can forget 3. and 4. as they cannot be ‘bumped up‘.
Assistance in TURBO is factory set to 340% which is the technical maximum of the Bosch CX motor. Therefore the presented range in the Flow App above 0 is misleading. Any + value setting will not change the assistance. See here: I have increased the Assistance and/or Dynamic parameter. Why do I not feel any difference?
This leaves us with dynamic. It might be possible that even in TURBO the factory setting for dynamic is not set to maximum. Changing that parameter to a + value will then give you a noticeable quicker response to changes in pedal input. On the other hand this is a short lived effect, after a few milliseconds the motor returns to its regular steady power level.

So yes, I agree, one can feel a slight increase in motor response but definitely there is no sustained power increase in TURBO possible.

Of course this is all quite different for other modes, which are not factory set to the 340% maximum assistance.
Cool story bro
 

RustyIron

E*POWAH Elite World Champion
Subscriber
Jun 5, 2021
1,507
2,384
La Habra, California
When you change SPORT to +3 the support factor goes up to 312% which for me is nearly TURBO (340%).

Interesting. Can you tell me where I can find this data while using the app?

My app tells me that the maximum assistance in my four chosen modes (ECO, TOUR+, EMTBsc, TURBO) is 340%. All I have to compare the four is the "Range Estimation." If I bump up Turbo, my expected range does not change. That supports your claim that TURBO is maxed out in its default setting.

If I bump up TOUR+ to maximum ASSISTANCE and maximum DYNAMIC, then it should be churning out 340% assistance, according to what the app tells me elsewhere. I would expect to see the same estimated range as TURBO. But I don't. See the attached screen shots.

If you can show me where I can see the explicit numbers for each mode and slider, I'd appreciate it. Thx.


IMG_5195.PNG

IMG_5196.PNG
 

Shark58

Active member
Mar 5, 2023
157
111
Germany
Can you tell me where I can find this data while using the app?
This can’t be found in the app. You need to search multiple pages on the Bosch website and/or have historic data from earlier versions of that site. Bosch once had very detailed information about motor performance and how much support each mode would deliver. Recently this changed to a more marketing focused design and many details got lost.

The best overview for riding modes can be found while starting on the following Bosch page, clicking on ‚Everything at a glance‘ and then opening each detail page for the individual modes. There you can find the maximum support for the mode. Riding modes: individually adapted to you - Bosch eBike Systems
If I bump up TOUR+ to maximum ASSISTANCE and maximum DYNAMIC, then it should be churning out 340% assistance
TOUR+ will always support with a maximum of 340%. It’s a dynamic mode that reacts to rider input power. With low input from you it will support with an added 60%, with very high input it will automatically reach 340% support.
I would expect to see the same estimated range as TURBO. But I don't.
Not possible. TURBO will always give you 340% on top of your input. TOUR+ can go down as low as 60% and will use less energy than TURBO.
My app tells me that the maximum assistance in my four chosen modes (ECO, TOUR+, EMTBsc, TURBO) is 340%
I’m sure it does not tell you 340%. The app doesn’t give the percentage for any mode, only the range of +/-5 you can apply to the factory setting. You need to calculate the result on your own.

Here is an example for ECO mode: Factory support is 60%. A setting of +3 will calculate 60% plus (30% of 60%) resulting in 78% after modification. -5 will calculate 60% minus (50% of 60%) resulting in 30% after modification. Each number in the range is one 10% step. This principle is true for all modes with the added limit of 340% as upper ceiling.

There was a very similar discussion on a German e-bike forum where one user put all known facts into one table. I used that table, updated it with some Bosch data I had stored locally and added some missing modes. Here you go

Bosch riding modes.png

P.S. I’m not 100% sure that CARGO and SPRINT have a starting point at 60%. If Bosch followed its own logic this should be right - but who knows!
 

RustyIron

E*POWAH Elite World Champion
Subscriber
Jun 5, 2021
1,507
2,384
La Habra, California
I’m sure it does not tell you 340%.

Clearly, we have a failure in communication. The app provides descriptions for each mode, and you're sure it doesn't. I see no place to go from here.

German e-bike forum where one user put all known facts into one table. I used that table, updated it with some Bosch data I had stored locally and added some missing modes. Here you go

Thanks. I was hoping for some published data from Bosch. A table made up by a German guy, where you added in some numbers that you think you know, and then adding in some more made up data isn't what I looking for. Phoney data plugged into a pretty chart is still phony data. Work like that will get you kicked out of the university.
 

Mikerb

E*POWAH Elite World Champion
May 16, 2019
6,131
4,660
Weymouth
If you go back to basics about how power is delivered for all the popular motors, both crank torque and cadence are sensed in order to ensure smooth and useable assistance. An expression of the total assistance..ie. 340% in the case of the Bosch CX is useful as a guide but little else is since none of us are privvy to the software algorithm that uses both crank torque and cadence to determine how much assistance is provided at each crank torque and cadence level.

We know that as standard each ( non dynamic) mode has a maximum assistance but we do not know the progression of that assistance.

For me, that means 2 things. Firstly, you can only really "feel" how the assistance is delivered by trying it..........and that applies both for the various modes as standard, and those modes if tuned in the app...up or down. Secondly, you can find out through riding experience what the optimum cadence is for each mode.
So I reckon, the moral of the story is, nevermind the numbers, try it and see how it performs.

As far as the consequence for range is concerned, about the only useful metric related to power delivery, is that a higher assistance level will mean less range. There are however so many other factors that also impact on range..........trail conditions, wind, tyre pressures, tyre design, total mass etc...........that range is at best a guessing game.
 

Arminius

Well-known member
Subscriber
Jul 26, 2022
395
600
Rhein-Ruhr Delta, Germany
I posted this earlier today, thought I should mention it here?
Another Flow update?
 

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