Bafang M560

[dvng]

Good morning everyone, I need your help.
Last Saturday the Ebike suffered a heavy downpour while it was traveling on the external bike rack.
At home I put the battery on charge without any problems, the next day I turned on the display to reset the kilometres, once the operation was completed the display turned off definitively. I'll make it short: after trying everything I replaced the engine with an old M600 and everything works.
My Kun Lun M560 died and I don't understand why.

The motor and battery doesnt like wet conditions. Your controller could be shorted.

 

[8Grunf]

The motor and battery doesnt like wet conditions. Your controller could be shorted.

I agree, but he didn't swim in the pool, it caught a storm.

 

[Dado]

Hi, does anyone have the latest M560 750w firmware with 52v coded or knows/can te me how to compile myself? I am building a 52v battery with a Daly canbus bms for my bike right now.
Is it possible to also do more than 22a at 52v? Maybe full 25a..

You wanna to compile by yourself? ) Then you need to join Bafang develeper team.

I have also only this single 52V 22A firmware. And never tested.

Go with 48V firmware, put 52V battery and use BBR device for accurate readings. And you would run 25A.
BBR Ultimate can also unlock throttle speed for M560.

 

[Dado]

I agree, but he didn't swim in the pool, it caught a storm.

So battery, cabling and old display works - you tested with M600. Then to open M560 and check/replace small PCB board with connectors (this is usual issue). If no success, then to replace controller.

Be careful about heavy water also for buttons and display. It can die also after a while.

 

[8Grunf]

So battery, cabling and old display works - you tested with M600. Then to open M560 and check/replace small PCB board with connectors (this is usual issue). If no success, then to replace controller.

Be careful about heavy water also for buttons and display. It can die also after a while.

Hi Dado,
thanks for the valuable information.
The engine is still under warranty, I reported the problem to the assistance service and I am waiting for their instructions.
fortunately I have an old and proven M600 that keeps the bike going.

 

[ZetOmega]

You wanna to compile by yourself? ) Then you need to join Bafang develeper team.

I have also only this single 52V 22A firmware. And never tested.

Go with 48V firmware, put 52V battery and use BBR device for accurate readings. And you would run 25A.
BBR Ultimate can also unlock throttle speed for M560.

My problem is that first of all the BBR Ultimate is expensive, but i can cope with it if it had all the features i needed. Dealkiller is that it unlocks the bike with a button combination. Every Cop knows that around here, they have lists of the most common ones. For me it would need to be activated by holding an RFID tag to the frame. And i did not understand fully if it limits to 250w and 25km/h or only the speed.. i need both to drive legally on streets and full speed offroad. But most important is activation only by a remote way, be it a phone app, rfid or a remote, but button combination i am not willing to risk here in my region.

About the firmware, i was wondering where you got it and if there might be any other 52v versions around. The version seems quite old no? What is the base firmware version compared to the newest 48v one? The 22a is fine but i'd like to not miss out on the other optimizations.

If not possible i would just stick with the 48v firmware and have a wrong reading, if i understand correctly it means i will also not hit the limiting percentage of the motor since it thinks my battery is still fuller.

Also wondering how the bike will act with the canbus signals from the battery, since it will tell the bike it is 52v..

Anyways i hope there is a near solution, but i will live if there isn't.

Happy riding

 

[ZetOmega]

Do we have any specific measurements of the main first gear of the m560? i am trying to draw up a model so i can have it manufactured out of peek for some noise tests. It looks similar to the m600 gear but i'll guess it's probably not the same. I can also not find the original steel gears as replacement, which i could send to a manufacturer for them to reverse engineer. If i don't have to, i'd like to avoid taking apart my motor, since that'd put it out of service for a long time if i send the main gear off to china

 

[xtraman122]

Do we have any specific measurements of the main first gear of the m560? i am trying to draw up a model so i can have it manufactured out of peek for some noise tests. It looks similar to the m600 gear but i'll guess it's probably not the same. I can also not find the original steel gears as replacement, which i could send to a manufacturer for them to reverse engineer. If i don't have to, i'd like to avoid taking apart my motor, since that'd put it out of service for a long time if i send the main gear off to china

I’ve been waiting for someone to take this project on! I know it’s different than M600 gear, I did see someone say that in one of these threads. Does Bafang sell replacement gear sets anywhere? I’d volunteer to buy an OEM replacement to sacrifice for the measurements if they exist somewhere.

 

[ZetOmega]

I’ve been waiting for someone to take this project on! I know it’s different than M600 gear, I did see someone say that in one of these threads. Does Bafang sell replacement gear sets anywhere? I’d volunteer to buy an OEM replacement to sacrifice for the measurements if they exist somewhere.

I have contacted Tars at Changzhou Fieldebikes, but it seems it is not available for purchase separatly. They still owe me a favour/small refund since my Frame arrived slightly damaged, maybe i can convince them to take it out of a motor and measure for me, maybe also send it off to the manufacturer directly. Since it is in China shipping would be fairly cheap too. Just need to get this gear out. I am not sure which gear needs to be Nylon but i believe it is the large cog of this gear(often called 1st gear, but also sometimes 3rd).

Temporarily sacrificing a motor is an option, since as soon as i'd have a working prototype I could install the new gear, but i don't have the funds arount to just buy one right now. Maybe crowdfunding is an option, but i don't like this approach of promising something when it's not clear it will be successful.

 

[xtraman122]

I had mine apart when I first got it to grease it, maybe I can get it apart again sometime this summer, but all I’d be able to measure is the diameters and width, how do you get the proper pitch/angle for the teeth?

 

[ZetOmega]

I had mine apart when I first got it to grease it, maybe I can get it apart again sometime this summer, but all I’d be able to measure is the diameters and width, how do you get the proper pitch/angle for the teeth?

Thats my problem too, i have some measurements I online. How many teeth and also which bearings are used, but no pitch or diameter sadly.

 

[Sayonara]

I had mine apart when I first got it to grease it, maybe I can get it apart again sometime this summer, but all I’d be able to measure is the diameters and width, how do you get the proper pitch/angle for the teeth?

Where you able to open the motor without breaking the paper seal? Also what grease did you use to regrease?

I'm soon about to hit 2500km's and wondering if I should open mine and regrease everything as preventative maintenance. I'm just worried that I won't be able to open it without breaking the seal. I have not found those seals to be sold anywhere. I guess I could use silicone as a seal like they do in automotive world sometimes.

 

[Dado]

Do we have any specific measurements of the main first gear of the m560? i am trying to draw up a model so i can have it manufactured out of peek for some noise tests. It looks similar to the m600 gear but i'll guess it's probably not the same. I can also not find the original steel gears as replacement, which i could send to a manufacturer for them to reverse engineer. If i don't have to, i'd like to avoid taking apart my motor, since that'd put it out of service for a long time if i send the main gear off to china

I can do it. Can buy one and provide to you. Sending you a PM.
Just without funds it will be hard to develop. That manufacturing is not cheap.

I draw a single piece chainring for Bafang and cost 140 Eur manufacturing.

 

[xtraman122]

Where you able to open the motor without breaking the paper seal? Also what grease did you use to regrease?

I'm soon about to hit 2500km's and wondering if I should open mine and regrease everything as preventative maintenance. I'm just worried that I won't be able to open it without breaking the seal. I have not found those seals to be sold anywhere. I guess I could use silicone as a seal like they do in automotive world sometimes.

I didn’t have any issues with the gasket, it stayed stuck to one side of the casing. I used the aeroshell 22 grease that a lot of people recommend but there are plenty of others that people say work well.

 

[Sayonara]

I didn’t have any issues with the gasket, it stayed stuck to one side of the casing. I used the aeroshell 22 grease that a lot of people recommend but there are plenty of others that people say work well.

Okey. Maybe that is because you did that to brand new motor so the gasket was fresh and didn't break.

 

[xtraman122]

I can do it. Can buy one and provide to you. Sending you a PM.
Just without funds it will be hard to develop. That manufacturing is not cheap.

I draw a single piece chainring for Bafang and cost 140 Eur manufacturing.

Without mass production I can imagine they’d definitely be expensive but if they make a significant difference in noise and can hold up I’d gladly pay in that price range for a gear as I imagine others would as well. Just look at all the ways we get ripped off from simple little components that should cost nothing in this industry

 

[RideStar]

Good day, forum people. I have a problem. On the engine M560 is out of the line controller with firmware at 48V. The engine was dismantled and the cotroller replaced. Connected to the BESST display expected to show error 08 (torque sensor) Calibrated torque sensor. Calibration was successful. The operation of the engine through the Walk assist worked correctly. But in the BESST program in the diameter section there was no signal with torque sensor 750mV. The engine was installed on the frame and tried to turn the pedals, the assist did not work. I thought that the torque sensor had failed. Removed the motor again, and changed the sensor, by the way if you have a motor 510 or 560 they are compatible with the model and the convector of the wire spines and do not need to change the shaft itself, which is installed on the motor. Assembled the engine, reconnected to BESST checked if there is a signal torque sensor, the signal appeared 759 mV. Then to check the signal change with torque sensor I screwed the connecting rods with pedals and pressed on them, the signal changed to 1020mV. Then I re-installed the engine on the frame to check the cradle mode, checked the display control panel of the battery assist setting, performed a recalibration, but in assit mode the motor does not turn on. Walk assist works when calibrating the motor also rotates. When rotating the pedals shows cadence, but the actuator does not turn on. Who will help us to move forward?

 

[Tjhell]

My M560 has quite a high pitch when I ride but 3-4 times now in the last 2 months I’ve had something happen where it feels like it has lost a lot of power and the high pitched whine changes to a much deeper drone, like when something is running out of battery. On 2 occasions I’ve switched the bike off, left it for 10-15 seconds and it’s back to normal.

Another couple of occasions though, it appears to have instantly dumped 10-15% of battery capacity. Usually from 20ish down to 10. Yesterday it seemed to happen with 60+% battery and switching it off and on again fixed it immediately.

Seems to mostly happen when it’s hot on a low cadence steep climb.

I guess anything from BMS, torque sensor, battery unable to provide enough power?

Has anyone experienced this? @Tomblarom @Dado @Neeko DeVinchi i know you all have hours on the M560, any suggestions appreciated.

 

[Sayonara]

Another couple of occasions though, it appears to have instantly dumped 10-15% of battery capacity. Usually from 20ish down to 10. Yesterday it seemed to happen with 60+% battery and switching it off and on again fixed it immediately.

I have had this happen couple of times. Slightly differently though. When using high power from the motor/battery when it's on low % (depending on the case but usually 20-25%) the motor assistance stops and it shows 0% battery left. If I then restart the motor it usually shows something like 10-15% and will only give very limited assistance. Less than an eco mode gives.

I think that it happens probably because some sort of battery protection system because the m560 can draw so much power from the battery. I have not found a way to prevent this.

 

[Tjhell]

I have had this happen couple of times. Slightly differently though. When using high power from the motor/battery when it's on low % (depending on the case but usually 20-25%) the motor assistance stops and it shows 0% battery left. If I then restart the motor it usually shows something like 10-15% and will only give very limited assistance. Less than an eco mode gives.

I think that it happens probably because some sort of battery protection system because the m560 can draw so much power from the battery. I have not found a way to prevent this.

Interesting @Sayonara , I’ve not seen the 0% behaviour but it’s certainly a very similar situation.

What bike is it happening in? Mine is a Hybridizer SANN and the motor is running firmware version MMG5300C4819F801032.4 , It's an M560 with a sticker serial number (not etched) so I believe it is the 2nd or 3rd rev.

 

[Waynemarlow]

I have had this happen couple of times. Slightly differently though. When using high power from the motor/battery when it's on low % (depending on the case but usually 20-25%) the motor assistance stops and it shows 0% battery left. If I then restart the motor it usually shows something like 10-15% and will only give very limited assistance.

High power equates to high amperage. Battery cells don’t like a high amp draw off at their lower voltages and will “slump” in voltage levels. The motor just reads voltage, sees a low voltage and will respond with a lower battery percentage level and the motor will shut down. We found the commonly used Samsung 35R cells did just this.

Even in a few minutes the cells voltage level will recover if there is no power draw and will often restart with say 15% showing. I’m not sure which battery you have but the smaller the Wh the more likely this will be the case ( 2P v 3P spreading the amps across 3 cells rather than 2 in the smaller battery )

At that point the motor will back right off power wise to get you home.

 

[Tjhell]

High power equates to high amperage. Battery cells don’t like a high amp draw off at their lower voltages and will “slump” in voltage levels. The motor just reads voltage, sees a low voltage and will respond with a lower battery percentage level and the motor will shut down. We found the commonly used Samsung 35R cells did just this.

Even in a few minutes the cells voltage level will recover if there is no power draw and will often restart with say 15% showing. I’m not sure which battery you have but the smaller the Wh the more likely this will be the case ( 2P v 3P spreading the amps across 3 cells rather than 2 in the smaller battery )

At that point the motor will back right off power wise to get you home.

Thanks for the info Wayne. Mine is a 860Wh battery and out of 50 or so rides it's only done this 4 times I think. I'm asking the brand about a possible update to firmware to help the issue.

 

[Waynemarlow]

Not sure a firmware update will help. This is simply you asking the battery / motor for too much support when it’s energy storage is nearly exhausted. Perhaps you could consider cutting back the support level say at 30%.

Dado’s little widget does help a bit in this situation as you can set the voltage low level of the cell. Bafang are a bit cautious and to be honest the cells can withstand lower voltage levels.

 

[Tjhell]

Not sure a firmware update will help. This is simply you asking the battery / motor for too much support when it’s energy storage is nearly exhausted. Perhaps you could consider cutting back the support level say at 30%.

Dado’s little widget does help a bit in this situation as you can set the voltage low level of the cell. Bafang are a bit cautious and to be honest the cells can withstand lower voltage levels.

Ok, thanks. I'm a bit confused why it has only just started happening in these last 8 or so rides out of 50ish. Normally I can dip well below 20% and the bike defaults to power modes 1-3 only.

The bluetooth module on the battery did fail a while ago Hybridizer have sent me a new one I haven't installed yet) so the screen is just reading SOC, I no longer see voltage and charging amps. Perhaps this is something to do with the new behaviour. I'll see what they say. Cheers

 

[Sayonara]

High power equates to high amperage. Battery cells don’t like a high amp draw off at their lower voltages and will “slump” in voltage levels. The motor just reads voltage, sees a low voltage and will respond with a lower battery percentage level and the motor will shut down. We found the commonly used Samsung 35R cells did just this.

Even in a few minutes the cells voltage level will recover if there is no power draw and will often restart with say 15% showing. I’m not sure which battery you have but the smaller the Wh the more likely this will be the case ( 2P v 3P spreading the amps across 3 cells rather than 2 in the smaller battery )

At that point the motor will back right off power wise to get you home.

Oh that makes sense! Thank you for detailed writing. However with my battery the problem seems to more severe. The cells does not recover that much. Even though the display may show 10-15% it barely gives me any assistance. As if it's in some sort of safe mode to prevent high power draw. If I would have to guess it's closer to 10-15% of normal eco mode power.

I have a 48v 15Ah SYR014 battery in my LCE971. According to seller they are 21700 Samsung cells.

36v 15ah 20ah ebike battery SYR 014 48v 15ah batteries with 21700 samsung cell for FitNord Ranger 700FS Electric Mountain Bike

 

[Tjhell]

My battery is a Sysmax BT2486B0, can't find online what cells are in it.

 

[xtraman122]

Oh that makes sense! Thank you for detailed writing. However with my battery the problem seems to more severe. The cells does not recover that much. Even though the display may show 10-15% it barely gives me any assistance. As if it's in some sort of safe mode to prevent high power draw. If I would have to guess it's closer to 10-15% of normal eco mode power.

I have a 48v 15Ah SYR014 battery in my LCE971. According to seller they are 21700 Samsung cells.
View attachment 160605
36v 15ah 20ah ebike battery SYR 014 48v 15ah batteries with 21700 samsung cell for FitNord Ranger 700FS Electric Mountain Bike

That battery doesn’t have a communicating BMS, I know because I have the same one in my E82 that I originally bought for a 971 frame. I believe Dado said the batteries without Can communication cause the Bafang motors to behave a little differently than when they do get communication, acting even more cautious and cutting off excessively early. Maybe he’ll see this and chime in, but I do remember hims suing without can communication from the BMS the motor would treat it a little differently to be safe.

 

[Tjhell]

That battery doesn’t have a communicating BMS, I know because I have the same one in my E82 that I originally bought for a 971 frame. I believe Dado said the batteries without Can communication cause the Bafang motors to behave a little differently than when they do get communication, acting even more cautious and cutting off excessively early. Maybe he’ll see this and chime in, but I do remember hims suing without can communication from the BMS the motor would treat it a little differently to be safe.

Good info, thanks.

Now I can imagine my failed Bluetooth module on the battery is probably causing this bike to resort to this default behaviour. I'll install the new one and fingers crossed it will fix my issue.

 

[Sayonara]

Oh that's interesting thank you for sharing this information. Any idea where I could get a better battery then? And how do I know if the battery has a communicating BMS or not before buying one?

@Dado any help on this?

 

[xtraman122]

Oh that's interesting thank you for sharing this information. Any idea where I could get a better battery then? And how do I know if the battery has a communicating BMS or not before buying one?

@Dado any help on this?

I don’t know the answer to that one other than I know all the OEMs seem to get them with their frames. For example my massive 1008Wh Dengfu battery that came with my E82 frame has it, I can see the serial number, charge cycles, etc through my display or Bafang app, but when I use my one from the 971 I get none of that, it’s all blank; the only wires going from the battery into the bike are for power, the CAN pins are empty.

Not sure if it requires some special programming from Bafang on the BMS or if a different BMS can be purchased and wired in that supports the Bafang CAN communication.