Avinox Reveals its Motor Gearbox

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nice vid!

PS: Btw, it's funny listen about maintenance "problems and be annoying", but we all know, that the Frappuccino Gang, don't do any dirty work! They pay to do for them...
 
TQFreak said:
It is not CVT. Avinox uses the idea Grin started working long time ago with their Magic Drive unit

It is basically emulation of the gearbox with electrical motor (tat's why the guy in the the Rob video mentioned about it requires a lot of power, it indeed requires a lot of power. And for the same reason he mentioned they can lock the motor, that is because of it relies completely on the electricity. And for the same reason he mentioned they can use regenerative braking).

Here is the explanation of how it works and what Avinox is basically doing here:

Click to expand...
Hi,

Yes this will be it. So coincidental this Grin video was posted just before the Avinox MG announcement! It's quite a technical concept so will be hard to convey to the average rider what is actually going on inside the unit. There are other clues as to this being the basic approach in the Avinox interview with regards to the smarts required in the motor controller as well. There are still compromises that will particularly apply to its appiication in an EMTB with regards to torque delivery (see the Grin video above).
 
Fangs2k said:
As he also said, I’d expect it in an Amflow for 2027 earliest.

By the time development is finalised, other manufacturers signed up and production scaled, 2028 is my guess.

People just need to calm the F down around every Avinox announcement, they won’t be the only game in town (GOBAO for one) and it would be great to discuss something without the usual ‘pick a side buddy or else’ type rhetoric… 😂
Click to expand...

This, people need to relax and M2S sales will not be tanking anytime soon because of that.

Sram & Shimano seeing their eMTB drivetrain market share melt in the near future with this announcement is another story.
 
Mario Antony said:
I accept any bet.
Just remember, the cheapest EV presently is 16.9K€!
Click to expand...
Just saying - People who buy 10k bikes and cars are totally two different groups. Compare expensive eMtb vs cheap EV together is meaningless. Yes EMtb is annoyingly expensive but the price is always decided by demand and supply.
 
While I am excited about the technology here, I'm not sold. This is really putting all your eggs in one basket. I'd rather have a bullet proof motor and battery, and then parts I can replace and work on. This is going in the opposite direction and you'll be bringing your bike into a dealer for a tune-up like a car. I don't have any problems with a rear derailleur except maybe too many gears for an ebike.
 
Don’t get me wrong, I would love to have a MGU bike, it’s the way of the future, but for me the greatest benefit is how it “obsoletes” the derailleur bikes and I’ll be able to pick up something nice very cheap😜
 
DylanJM said:
You gotta think this might have an effect on M2S bikes sales? When many bikes aren't set to be delivered until towards end of this year I think many in the market for a new bike might hold on a bit to see what 2027 brings.
Click to expand...
yes. i dont know what they were thinking announcing this right now. i had wanted an m2s bike, now i dont
 
Shifting the steam from this year's M2S craziness over to next year's MG hype, while countering GoBao's X1P market entry, hurting competitors who aren't even up to the M1 yet, giving OEMs time to switch orders to MGs (after failing to jump on the Avinox hypetrain in time), thus squeezing out Bosch, Pinion, SRAM and Shimano for good – there are a few motives why Avinox might have come up with that announcement schedule – especially while their own supply capabilities are exhausted.
 
James_C said:
no belt drive though, leaving you with both challenges of cleaning the chain and also the main weak point?
Click to expand...
It supports Belts - the Mondraker concept is belt driven. See the Youtube thumbnail of the belt bike a little further up this thread.
 
First, the tech bro in me absolutely loves this. Just amazing. I don't want 1, I want 3 of them!
But the garage mechanic that enjoys 'hopping up my bikes' and aging bicyclist that just wanted 'a little help up the hills' and still rides the gnar, is crying a little bit inside. Every time we make it a bit more automated, a bit more powerful, a bit more technologically advanced the further we get away from bicycling. And this makes me really quite sad.
 
Super interested in this. Trying to work out what wasn't said as much as what was.

Does sound like it's an eCVT, 2 motors and a planetary system to control output speed. If the battery is dead flat then yes I think it is all but dead. I think in theory you can still pedal and take some of your pedaling input power to control the gear ratio, but in practice that is likely to be horrible. BUT if the software starts cutting the assistance back gradually as the battery gets down to say 50kWh and then only runs the gears with the last 10kWh, then you could probably still have an hour or more of no-assist gears before things got really horrible.

Re-Gen could be a big positive, even if you could only recover 20% or so of your climbing energy that would still extend the range 20% for most of us, and IF it was powerful enough to replace the rear brake (which I doubt) then you could save even more unsprung weight and maintenance costs. Would need the motor to always be giving a bit of assist when freewheeling though to "mask" the drag of the chain or belt and MG unit; which in turn would hurt range.

I don't see price being an issue. Money saved on conventional (high end) gears and the assembly costs associated with installing them should be more than enough for price parity if not reductions.

Rob had the unit in his hand, so it's disappointing (though understandable) that he can't give us a clue on weight. If they can get this down below 3.5kgs then that's great, under 3kg and it will be amazing for bike feel.

I wonder if their own "power/torque war" has come back to bite them here? I can only assume that they have been working on this since day one, and maybe trying to match the 1500W of the M2s is causing them headaches. You would think that lower output powers would make the two motors' jobs a lot easier. I think the Orbea RS tune could well be a big help here, it still gets great reviews and using something like this on the MG would make for a distinct reason to keep the M2s on for people that want all the power. I guess now they've announced it with full power they can't really row that back now though.

So the biggest question is efficiency. I think the reference to cross-chain efficiency losses of 10% (which seems a much higher number than is usually reported) with a derailleur; is them setting the stage for a significant efficiency loss with the MG.
So they can respond with: "Yes the efficiency is only xx% but you have to remember that chain misalignment and poor gear alignment can be similar to this".

Also noticed that Rob didn't mention quietness in his post-ride comments. It's something that they claim but two motors are inevitably going to create more noise then one and depending on rpms could be at an annoying frequency.

Definitely very excited for this though. Just wish they were prepared to sell to smaller companies and even DIYers so we could really accelerate the development of frames that make the most of the advantages. It looks like most of these concepts have really had to compromise of pivot placement but new suspension designs could easily get around this.
Getting rid of the derailleur means getting rid of:- UDH, wheel dish (and therefore potentially super boost and above spacing), derailleur cables, chain slap, clutch losses (and accelerated chain wear), and of course maybe chains themselves.
 
Suns_PSD said:
First, the tech bro in me absolutely loves this. Just amazing. I don't want 1, I want 3 of them!
But the garage mechanic that enjoys 'hopping up my bikes' and aging bicyclist that just wanted 'a little help up the hills' and still rides the gnar, is crying a little bit inside. Every time we make it a bit more automated, a bit more powerful, a bit more technologically advanced the further we get away from bicycling. And this makes me really quite sad.
Click to expand...
Yes. Be nice if there was a way to set this up with a small battery and something like Specialized auto-tune so you could still ride with minimal assist in a natural way.
 
James_C said:
no belt drive though, leaving you with both challenges of cleaning the chain and also the main weak point?
Click to expand...
It can be belt or chain driven. A chain drive would require a little maintenance than a belt but still far less than a conventional drive train. Personally, I think I'd prefer to stick with chain tbh. Easily fixable on the trail if you snap a link compared to a belt. Belts can have issues in muddy conditions too.
 
Plyphon said:
I love that on page 1 of this thread we already have a 'manual shifting is better' post. Can't make it up.
Click to expand...
To be fair, auto-shifting with conventional stepped gears would probably drive most people mad with shifts when you don't want them killing flow. But stepless shouldn't suffer from this IF they can get the software right..
 
Suns_PSD said:
First, the tech bro in me absolutely loves this. Just amazing. I don't want 1, I want 3 of them!
But the garage mechanic that enjoys 'hopping up my bikes' and aging bicyclist that just wanted 'a little help up the hills' and still rides the gnar, is crying a little bit inside. Every time we make it a bit more automated, a bit more powerful, a bit more technologically advanced the further we get away from bicycling. And this makes me really quite sad.
Click to expand...
Yeah you got a Point there .... but in the end the only thing that counts for me personally is: Can I smash down the Trails like now with it?? Yes I can!

So when less maintenance and less time riding up the mountain gives me more time on the trails or with my family? Sign me up for it!
 
G-Sport said:
Super interested in this. Trying to work out what wasn't said as much as what was.

Does sound like it's an eCVT, 2 motors and a planetary system to control output speed. If the battery is dead flat then yes I think it is all but dead. I think in theory you can still pedal and take some of your pedaling input power to control the gear ratio, but in practice that is likely to be horrible. BUT if the software starts cutting the assistance back gradually as the battery gets down to say 50kWh and then only runs the gears with the last 10kWh, then you could probably still have an hour or more of no-assist gears before things got really horrible.

Re-Gen could be a big positive, even if you could only recover 20% or so of your climbing energy that would still extend the range 20% for most of us, and IF it was powerful enough to replace the rear brake (which I doubt) then you could save even more unsprung weight and maintenance costs. Would need the motor to always be giving a bit of assist when freewheeling though to "mask" the drag of the chain or belt and MG unit; which in turn would hurt range.

I don't see price being an issue. Money saved on conventional (high end) gears and the assembly costs associated with installing them should be more than enough for price parity if not reductions.

Rob had the unit in his hand, so it's disappointing (though understandable) that he can't give us a clue on weight. If they can get this down below 3.5kgs then that's great, under 3kg and it will be amazing for bike feel.

I wonder if their own "power/torque war" has come back to bite them here? I can only assume that they have been working on this since day one, and maybe trying to match the 1500W of the M2s is causing them headaches. You would think that lower output powers would make the two motors' jobs a lot easier. I think the Orbea RS tune could well be a big help here, it still gets great reviews and using something like this on the MG would make for a distinct reason to keep the M2s on for people that want all the power. I guess now they've announced it with full power they can't really row that back now though.

So the biggest question is efficiency. I think the reference to cross-chain efficiency losses of 10% (which seems a much higher number than is usually reported) with a derailleur; is them setting the stage for a significant efficiency loss with the MG.
So they can respond with: "Yes the efficiency is only xx% but you have to remember that chain misalignment and poor gear alignment can be similar to this".

Also noticed that Rob didn't mention quietness in his post-ride comments. It's something that they claim but two motors are inevitably going to create more noise then one and depending on rpms could be at an annoying frequency.

Definitely very excited for this though. Just wish they were prepared to sell to smaller companies and even DIYers so we could really accelerate the development of frames that make the most of the advantages. It looks like most of these concepts have really had to compromise of pivot placement but new suspension designs could easily get around this.
Getting rid of the derailleur means getting rid of:- UDH, wheel dish (and therefore potentially super boost and above spacing), derailleur cables, chain slap, clutch losses (and accelerated chain wear), and of course maybe chains themselves.
Click to expand...
For sure the first version will not be fully optimised in the noise, efficiency and weight areas. That will come over a decade+ of development
 
Interestingly, Bosch do the ECU's and software that controls several automotive e-CVTs so they may be better able to rise to this challenge than it seems...
 
Suns_PSD said:
a bit more technologically advanced the further we get away from bicycling. And this makes me really quite sad.
Click to expand...
I'm with you, it's been downhill (no pun intended) ever since we fecked things up and added pedals and all that crap ..

1782308222055.webp
 
G-Sport said:
Re-Gen could be a big positive, even if you could only recover 20% or so of your climbing energy that would still extend the range 20% for most of us, and IF it was powerful enough to replace the rear brake (which I doubt) then you could save even more unsprung weight and maintenance costs.
Click to expand...
I like the idea of a mechanical front brake and a re-gen rear brake. The rear brake would not work very well when the battery is at 100%, though.
 
The re-gen opportunities are the most interesting aspect of this. Smaller batteries are going to be the fastest way to lighter bikes.

This also takes the unsprung weight off the rear and adds it to a more preferable location.

I'll start saving today, for Gen 2.
 
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