I'm not subscribed to his channelJust unsubscribe then
Personally, I have never even heard of him.
This guy is the most unbiased I have found.
. It just came up on my YouTube feed when searching for the new motor.Avinox launch 1500w M2S motor and cheaper M2 motor
- Thread starter Rob Rides EMTB
- Start date
. It just came up on my YouTube feed when searching for the new motor.Our plugs are 13 A at 230 V; 13*230=2990 W. The Avinox batteries are 36 V so 13 A is only 13*36=468 W. So only about 468/230=2ish amps are being pulled through our mains plugs when charging at 13 A. (The brick part of the charger reduces the voltage from 230 to 36, which increases the amps for a given wattage.) We'd have to be charging a 36 V battery at around 80 amps to trouble the mains system.
Wojtek
New Member
- Mar 13, 2026
- 95
- 89
Best way is to go test it and find out for oneself.
I took his feedback seriously as im considering amflow and always had the "torque" sensor motors so i was concerned about what this youtuber was talking about cadence.
Tested mondraker today but only on flats up to 25kmh. Not perfect test but for me personally i havent felt much difference to my current TQ 120s motor.
So my conclusion is that the factor he hates about avonox doesnt bother me personally.
Amazingly quiet this avinox m2s!!!
TheKaiser
Active member
I agree with you that, practically speaking, they are 2 sides of the same coin, in terms of how they might influence a prospective buyer to choose between 2 brands.
Having said that, sponsored riders "overly hyping a product" is commonplace, and while it is always feels a little cheesy and fake, I can kind of cut them some slack as they are getting paid to ride and promote the product, and it's all out in the open, so we as the consumers can take that into account as we assess the veracity of the info. Now if that same sponsored rider started trash talking (i.e. spreading misinformation) about other brands, claiming that it was insider knowledge that the "other media guys" can't/won't/are afraid to tell you, that goes beyond just being a little cheesy and fake to me, and get's to being straight up unethical.
I guess everyone has to draw their own line as to what they find acceptable, but I don't mind if Loic Bruni tells me that Specialized makes the best bikes. He's paid by them, and rides and races them himself, it's what I'd expect. But if he then told me that Santa Cruz bikes have been snapping and killing people, and there is a massive cover up that everyone else is afraid to talk about, I'd tell him to f-off with that BS.
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Wojtek
New Member
- Mar 13, 2026
- 95
- 89
I truly hope for RS300/400!
Good questions on RS cell chemisty, hopefully we will find out more.
I wish there were some interview based videos with Avinox people by someone more tech savvy and independent.
The rumours around molicells are for some time now. Hopefully they will come as an 936wh upgrade to PR as an a range extender. This way i can forget the RE.
Qt this stage we are asking a lot from amflow. I think they did great job with all the upgrades and improvements.
They must realize having extenders for XL + frames serves only small % of customers so yea, more configurations should be coming!
In fairness, I don’t think he is doing that, and I actually think he’s wrong about his cadence assertions by the way.
He isn’t being paid by a rival motor manufacturer as far as I know, still waiting for people to evidence that, so in that sense he’s just sharing his own opinion, however flawed some might think it is.
There’s really no need to trash anybody for expressing an opinion, however unpopular it might be. Listen, or don’t, and just like paid for opinions where you assess the veracity and make your own mind up, you do the same with less than positive reviews.?
TheKaiser
Active member
Yeah, this thread is a little tough to keep up with right now! Thanks for the battery and Amflow chat info. Hopefully they're just not fully up to speed in the customer service dept, and/or there was a language barrier, as that would be pretty disappinting. I can certainly imagine that they'll only be selling the PR with the 800wh, but I'd figured that the 600wh, if purchased separately, could be put in the downtube slot in place of the 800wh. If the 600 won't fit securely, and needs to be used externally, that would be pretty wack, as it seems like a really suboptimal design for a Range Extender. The fact that it can be used as a RE was kind of a bonus in my mind, rather than a primary purpose. I'd mainly hoped to use it alone for shorter rides, or to hot swap in the parking lot once the 800 is cooked, for long days lapping loops at a trail center.
Earlier in this thread, people posted an image with all of the battery dimensions. From my memory, the 600wh removable and the 800wh removable are nearly the same length and width, but the 800 has that additional projection to hold extra cells on 1 side, so I'd hoped they designed the downtube battery compartment to interface with the dimensions they have in common.
Regarding the battery being "new forthcoming" I don't think the bike is even going to be shipping until June, so maybe they consider all of this stuff to be "forthcoming" until it is actually in stock, even if the production schedule is locked in.
Regarding the disappointing energy density of the FP700. IMO we need to compare the old fixed 600Wh vs the new 700Wh, possible 700Wh with 21700 cells and then the old fixed 800Wh and a possible 936Wh.
The current fixed Avinox batteries were/are supposedly using the LG M58T 5,57Ah cells that weigh ≈ 71,2g. The new Molicel 6,5Ah M65A weighs ≈ 74,5g. That's a difference of ≈ 3,3g per cell.
We have 30 cells in a 10S3P(100g more) and 40 cells in a 10S4P(130g more) pack.
The dimensions of the cells in length and thickness are basically negligible, so the sizing of the pack can stay the same.
FS600 》
600Wh/2,87kg = 209Wh/kg
Cell LG M58T 5,57Ah, 71,2g
FP700 》
700Wh/3,18kg = 220Wh/kg
Cell Custom LG 4650 70Wh, cca 250g
700Wh with the newest 6,5Ah cells (my prediction last fall):
702Wh/2,97kg ≈ 236Wh/kg
Current fixed FS800 》
800Wh/3,74kg ≈ 214Wh/kg
10S x 4P x 3,6V x 6,5Ah ≈ 936Wh
New 936Wh/3,87kg ≈ 242Wh/kg
Recap:
FS600(old fixed): 209Wh/kg
2,87kg
702Wh(My prediction) 236Wh/kg (+13%)
2,97kg
FP700(new fixed): 220Wh/kg (+5,3%)
3,18kg
___________________________
FS800(old fixed): 214Wh/kg
3,74kg
936Wh(My prediction) 242Wh/kg (+13%)
3,87kg
What we can see is that the lower energy density with the new FP700 comes from the increased weight of the whole pack, cca 200g more than my predicted equivalent with best 21700 cells.
In a pack made by smaller 21700 cells we have internal cell holders/spacers(plastic) that also serve as a structural part of the pack, aiding rigidity of it.
The new FP700 is long and thin and only has 10 cells stacked in one column without the previously mentioned structural cell holders/spacers as we don't need them here. The rigidity of a such structure by itself obviously isn't strong, so it needs a strong support(housing).
Because of that the housing needed thicker walls than usual to get the pack to the desired rigidity for passing all the certification tests, and that's is the reason why the energy density of the new FP700 is somewhat disappointing.
Why they didn't build it with the 6,5Ah 21700 cells, I don't know.
Could be longterm contracts with LG, could be tensions between China and Taiwan(Molicel), could be that the Chinese FEB 6,5Ah cells aren't/weren't up to standards...we can't know.
If the 936Wh 3,9kg pack, or a 235Wh 1kg REx, or a 470Wh 1,9kg REx come that would indicate the use of 21700 6,5Ah cells.
The current fixed Avinox batteries were/are supposedly using the LG M58T 5,57Ah cells that weigh ≈ 71,2g. The new Molicel 6,5Ah M65A weighs ≈ 74,5g. That's a difference of ≈ 3,3g per cell.
We have 30 cells in a 10S3P(100g more) and 40 cells in a 10S4P(130g more) pack.
The dimensions of the cells in length and thickness are basically negligible, so the sizing of the pack can stay the same.
FS600 》
600Wh/2,87kg = 209Wh/kg
Cell LG M58T 5,57Ah, 71,2g
FP700 》
700Wh/3,18kg = 220Wh/kg
Cell Custom LG 4650 70Wh, cca 250g
700Wh with the newest 6,5Ah cells (my prediction last fall):
702Wh/2,97kg ≈ 236Wh/kg
Current fixed FS800 》
800Wh/3,74kg ≈ 214Wh/kg
10S x 4P x 3,6V x 6,5Ah ≈ 936Wh
New 936Wh/3,87kg ≈ 242Wh/kg
Recap:
FS600(old fixed): 209Wh/kg
2,87kg
702Wh(My prediction) 236Wh/kg (+13%)
2,97kg
FP700(new fixed): 220Wh/kg (+5,3%)
3,18kg
___________________________
FS800(old fixed): 214Wh/kg
3,74kg
936Wh(My prediction) 242Wh/kg (+13%)
3,87kg
What we can see is that the lower energy density with the new FP700 comes from the increased weight of the whole pack, cca 200g more than my predicted equivalent with best 21700 cells.
In a pack made by smaller 21700 cells we have internal cell holders/spacers(plastic) that also serve as a structural part of the pack, aiding rigidity of it.
The new FP700 is long and thin and only has 10 cells stacked in one column without the previously mentioned structural cell holders/spacers as we don't need them here. The rigidity of a such structure by itself obviously isn't strong, so it needs a strong support(housing).
Because of that the housing needed thicker walls than usual to get the pack to the desired rigidity for passing all the certification tests, and that's is the reason why the energy density of the new FP700 is somewhat disappointing.
Why they didn't build it with the 6,5Ah 21700 cells, I don't know.
Could be longterm contracts with LG, could be tensions between China and Taiwan(Molicel), could be that the Chinese FEB 6,5Ah cells aren't/weren't up to standards...we can't know.
If the 936Wh 3,9kg pack, or a 235Wh 1kg REx, or a 470Wh 1,9kg REx come that would indicate the use of 21700 6,5Ah cells.
Last edited:
Regarding the disappointing energy density of the FP700. IMO we need to compare the old fixed 600Wh vs the new 700Wh, possible 700Wh with 21700 cells and then the old fixed 800Wh and a possible 936Wh.
The current fixed Avinox batteries were/are supposedly using the LG M58T 5,57Ah cells that weigh ≈ 71,2g. The new Molicel 6,5Ah M65A weighs ≈ 74,5g. That's a difference of ≈ 3,3g per cell.
We have 30 cells in a 10S3P(100g more) and 40 cells in a 10S4P(130g more) pack.
The dimensions of the cells in length and thickness are basically negligible, so the sizing of the pack can stay the same.
FS600 》
600Wh/2,87kg = 209Wh/kg
Cell LG M58T 5,57Ah, 71,2g
View attachment 181626
FP700 》
700Wh/3,18kg = 220Wh/kg
Cell Custom LG 4650 70Wh, cca 250g
700Wh with the newest 6,5Ah cells (my prediction last fall):
702Wh/2,97kg ≈ 236Wh/kg
Current fixed FS800 》
800Wh/3,74kg ≈ 214Wh/kg
10S x 4P x 3,6V x 6,5Ah ≈ 936Wh
New 936Wh/3,87kg ≈ 242Wh/kg
Recap:
FS600(old fixed): 209Wh/kg
2,87kg
702Wh(My prediction) 236Wh/kg (+13%)
2,97kg
FP700(new fixed): 220Wh/kg (+5,3%)
3,18kg
___________________________
FS800(old fixed): 214Wh/kg
3,74kg
936Wh(My prediction) 242Wh/kg (+13%)
3,87kg
What we can see is that the lower energy density with the new FP700 comes from the increased weight of the whole pack, cca 200g more than my predicted equivalent with best 21700 cells.
In a pack made by smaller 21700 cells we have internal cell holders/spacers(plastic) that also serve as a structural part of the pack, aiding rigidity of it.
The new FP700 is long and thin and only has 10 cells stacked in one column without the previously mentioned structural cell holders/spacers as we don't need them here. The rigidity of a such structure by itself obviously isn't strong, so it needs a strong support(housing).
Because of that the housing needed thicker walls than usual to get the pack to the desired rigidity for passing all the certification tests, and that's is the reason why the energy density of the new FP700 is somewhat disappointing.
Why they didn't build it with the 6,5Ah 21700 cells, I don't know.
Could be longterm contracts with LG, could be tensions between China and Taiwan(Molicel), could be that the Chinese FEB 6,5Ah cells aren't/weren't up to standards...we can't know.
If the 936Wh 3,9kg pack, or a 235Wh 1kg REx, or a 470Wh 1,9kg REx come that would indicate the use of 21700 6,5Ah cells.
You're a really good resource on battery tech.
Thanks for sharing.
- Thread starter
- #220
Possibly a commercially staggered strategic launch, next year they bump up the spec to latest cells. And then spec bump up again for next year.Regarding the disappointing energy density of the FP700. IMO we need to compare the old fixed 600Wh vs the new 700Wh, possible 700Wh with 21700 cells and then the old fixed 800Wh and a possible 936Wh.
The current fixed Avinox batteries were/are supposedly using the LG M58T 5,57Ah cells that weigh ≈ 71,2g. The new Molicel 6,5Ah M65A weighs ≈ 74,5g. That's a difference of ≈ 3,3g per cell.
We have 30 cells in a 10S3P(100g more) and 40 cells in a 10S4P(130g more) pack.
The dimensions of the cells in length and thickness are basically negligible, so the sizing of the pack can stay the same.
FS600 》
600Wh/2,87kg = 209Wh/kg
Cell LG M58T 5,57Ah, 71,2g
View attachment 181626
FP700 》
700Wh/3,18kg = 220Wh/kg
Cell Custom LG 4650 70Wh, cca 250g
700Wh with the newest 6,5Ah cells (my prediction last fall):
702Wh/2,97kg ≈ 236Wh/kg
Current fixed FS800 》
800Wh/3,74kg ≈ 214Wh/kg
10S x 4P x 3,6V x 6,5Ah ≈ 936Wh
New 936Wh/3,87kg ≈ 242Wh/kg
Recap:
FS600(old fixed): 209Wh/kg
2,87kg
702Wh(My prediction) 236Wh/kg (+13%)
2,97kg
FP700(new fixed): 220Wh/kg (+5,3%)
3,18kg
___________________________
FS800(old fixed): 214Wh/kg
3,74kg
936Wh(My prediction) 242Wh/kg (+13%)
3,87kg
What we can see is that the lower energy density with the new FP700 comes from the increased weight of the whole pack, cca 200g more than my predicted equivalent with best 21700 cells.
In a pack made by smaller 21700 cells we have internal cell holders/spacers(plastic) that also serve as a structural part of the pack, aiding rigidity of it.
The new FP700 is long and thin and only has 10 cells stacked in one column without the previously mentioned structural cell holders/spacers as we don't need them here. The rigidity of a such structure by itself obviously isn't strong, so it needs a strong support(housing).
Because of that the housing needed thicker walls than usual to get the pack to the desired rigidity for passing all the certification tests, and that's is the reason why the energy density of the new FP700 is somewhat disappointing.
Why they didn't build it with the 6,5Ah 21700 cells, I don't know.
Could be longterm contracts with LG, could be tensions between China and Taiwan(Molicel), could be that the Chinese FEB 6,5Ah cells aren't/weren't up to standards...we can't know.
If the 936Wh 3,9kg pack, or a 235Wh 1kg REx, or a 470Wh 1,9kg REx come that would indicate the use of 21700 6,5Ah cells.
Damn that's ugly but I guess effective.
I have to say that the first gen Amflow never even crossed my mind as a bike that I would be interested in.
But the second gen Amflow looks amazing. And then it's also a great price. I feel like it's really the most compelling new M2 bike once you add in the price as part of the equation.
That said if I was getting a new M2 bike, I'd probably go with the Zendit.
Fair comment and I agree about the sponsored riders, my issue is all the YouTubers who were given free 9 grand Amflows to keep but they don’t declare it. If you knew in advance they had a free bike you can then have a more balanced view of their reviews and thoughts on their bike.
Great marketing by Amflow though.
Hey Rob, yeah could also be that, it's a well known practice in the world.
I am/was surprised though that they went the lengths to create custom 46... type cell for an ebike.
Unless there is a bigger business plot behind the development of these cells, like selling them later on after the patents expire, etc...
Interesting developments in the ebike world.
Thanks, try my best to pass the knowledge, actually I don't work in the field of my primary education(electronics engineering) so I guess I try to compensate a bit with these posts
The way I’ve seen things done in my industry is the manufacturer doesn’t technically give the review sample away; they just never ask for it back. I like to call it getting “NET/never” terms.
Red Peekay
Active member
The issue with that setup will be bike size and bike make. Some models won't have enough space to fit that into the triangle area. I suspect that battery won't fit on a small frame, unless that is a small already. Also wondering how secure that setup is if you choose to "send it"....
Great write up, only thing I will mention is the weight difference is likely not that extreme for the old vs new 21700 cells. Bit of Deja Vu but you are comparing "typical" quoted weight figure on the M58T vs the "max" weight figure on the M65A. The "max" weight of the M58t is 73.2g, so only a 1.3g difference per cell using the same measurement.
I would really hope though that DJI isn't waiting another cycle / year to push this tech into their batteries. Just looking through the thread that was a lot of the new releases hype. I'm thinking maybe because the M65A still isn't out they had to push back the release date but hopefully not nearly that long. Sticking to the old cells though for those packs and not at least doing a capacity jump while we wait is interesting though. Maybe they didn't want to add extra confusion when those updated packs that can support the 1500w come out after.
People touched on the plug but the battery is a bit of a unknown without again knowing the exact cells used and how they behave. A lot of factors at play like battery temp, you don't want to charge fast and then limit riding power right after because the cells got hot. But for example the old 600/800wh battery cells are rated for 2.7a for a 0% to 100% charge 2.5v to 4.2v (DJI probably has the voltage limits a lot more conservative for cell health, allowing faster charging). The Molicel M65A boasts a 0 to 100% max charge amps of 6.5a so over 2x the speed. So if that was a cell they swapped to I would have no doubt if can charge decently faster.
I like the idea of a single row of battery cells with the number of cells being adjusted for the size bike since the downtube gets longer and the riders likely get larger.
But from a production standpoint that's probably impractical to have 4-5 different sized batteries.
But from a production standpoint that's probably impractical to have 4-5 different sized batteries.
slickrock
Well-known member
As designed they appear to be in series so the voltages won't match in different configs. 700WH stack with 10 cells in series was not a capacity preference but rather a requirement for that particular cell, it seems. And this config will be the absolute thinnest if using the same cells. A 1400 wh battery would be 2 rows of 10 - but the the width would be greater than the existing 600/800 width, so won't fit inside existing setups. Transverse layout stack causes the same issue as would a triangular stack or quad stack.
Going with a different cell smaller cell form-factor would allow for more flexible battery module designs.
Last edited:
DirkWisely
Well-known member
If it's using a strap at the top, then I see no reason it can't be half that size and be less ridiculous.
FlorianLanua
New Member
Orbea or Canyon making their ebikes with avinox motors?
slickrock
Well-known member
DirkWisely
Well-known member
Yeah those linkages that take up area around the BB really seem to suck for REs.
FlorianLanua
New Member
Good afternoon. Is this official information? It’s just that the ability to increase the range of the PR version of the bike is very important to me.
sethimus
😠 Donald Duck 😠
and what about you? now you claim the m1 was not efficient. when everyone was measuring efficiency in the high 70s where everyone else but mahle was. now they lead in efficiency. just shut the f… up please. you are constantly peddling your little self developed theories about things you clearly can’t grasp properly to others and present them as facts.
ozzybmx
Active member
Popped up on a social feed and was too funny to not share 
I'm now >80% confident they are still using the LG M58T or a very closely-related member of the M58 family.
- The nominal voltage of the RS800 is 35.9. The nominal voltage of the M58T is 3.59 so this fits a 10s4p (4 parallel groups of 10 cells) configuration perfectly.
- With a quick search, I cannot find any other cells with 3.59 nominal voltage; most are between 3.6 and 3.7. If there are no such cells, this alone is very strong evidence the M58T is being used.
- The claimed capacity of the RS800 is 800 Wh. The "nominal capacity" of the M58T is 5.8 Ah, which would give 5.8*4*35.9=832.88 Wh. However, the "minimum capacity" on the data sheet, which is much more accurate in my experience, is 5.57. That would be a great match: 5.57*4*35.9=799.9 Wh.
- This is only moderately strong evidence, because claimed Wh capacities of battery packs tend to be rounded by manufacturers/retailers.
- Another source claims the capacity of the RS800 is 22.3 Ah, which is also a good fit assuming a 5.57 Ah per-cell capacity: 800/35.9 (or 4*5.57)=22.28 Ah.
- This is strong evidence because, following standard rounding conventions, 22.3 Ah only works for cells between 5.57 and 5.59 Ah (5.56*4=22.24=22.2; 5.60*4=22.40=22.4). I cannot find any other cell with "nominal" or "minimum" capacity within that very narrow range.
- The RS800 charger maxes out at 12 A, which in 4p configuration would give 3 A per cell. The max charge current of the M58T is 2.7, which in 4p configuration would permit 2.7*4=10.8 A. If they use the same cells in 600 Wh packs, which are presumably 10s3p, the charging limit would be 2.7*3=8.1 A.
- I see this as moderate evidence against the M58T being used. Generally manufacturers will try to keep the current below the max, to prevent overheating and cell degradation. But perhaps they did some testing, or sought advice from LG, and decided 12 A would be fine. Also, the cells allow up to 5 A charging if the charging voltage is reduced to 4.0 A per cell (rather than the usual 4.2 A), so maybe the charger has some firmware that charges in two stages or something? Or maybe it doesn't actually charge at the full 12 A? I would like more information on this.
- Avinox used the M58T for their old FS800 and FS600 (fixed) batteries, so it would be odd for them to switch to a different cell that had exactly the same specs. The M58T is also used by Bosch.
- A fairly weak but non-trivial point in favour of the M58T.
- Aside from the M58T, there are apparently three additional cells in the M58 family: M58, M58V, and M58VT.
- This does weaken the case for the M58T in particular being used. However, Chat GPT couldn't find spec sheets for those other three, and what little info it could find appears to be the same as the M58T, so it might just be the type of wrapper used or something irrelevant like that.
sethimus
😠 Donald Duck 😠
that’s a third party range extender:
Kit Extender Horizon - Avinox DJI
-Zusätzlicher Batteriesatz, Modell Horizon Range Extender für E-Bikes mit Avinox DJI-Motor.-Kompatibel mit allen E-Bikes mit Avinox DJI-System, einschließlich der Motoren M1, M2 und M2S.-Kapazität: 252 Wh-Spezielle Verkabelung für den Anschluss an den Ladeanschluss des Fahrrads. -Gewicht:252 Wh...
www.volabike.com
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