Weird Reversed Stem Geo / Chat

[Rob Rides EMTB]

Thanks @BeMoreBikes for the posts and contributions here. Your product has clearly had a big impact on many riders. Great to see it progress, looking forward to the direct mount version when its ready.

Had another ride today in the Surrey Hills. Much flatter terrain, lots of tight flat corners, jumps, drops, classic Surrey Hills riding. Bike was superb. Lots of people LOL'd at the bike, thinking that I should be doing Rampage on it! But then after a while when people saw how it handled everything they were more intrigued.

I sat on my friends "traditional" enduro ebike whilst he had a quick go, and his felt like a tiny toy bike in comparison

I am going to run this setup for the foressable future on my bike. @BeMoreBikes what an amazing concept!

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

@Rob Rides EMTB I am guessing you have a direct line to Cesar Rojo (Unno). He designed a 10mm DH stem in 2011. I would be curious as to why he went away from exploring the short stem avenue.

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/Proto-DM-Stem-Cero-Design-2011.html

He messaged me the other day saying he made one in 2011!!

Bike geo has changed a long way since then - also that stem has no stack, or reversed offset, so whilst similar, its totally not the same in what it does to the ride.

Maybe it was too far ahead of its time back then to progress any further testing?

 

[Suns_PSD]

I’m sorry dude I have to call you out on this info being completely false.

Eli tomac bar rise 54mm and bar sweep 54mm

Jason Anderson bar rise 52mm sweep 52mm

Chase sexton 56-58 on both

Bar ends are 100% not in line with the fork. That would be a terrible setup. You make the bar bend parallel to the fork which is in line with the steering axis and with the bar sweep your grips will be back end or behind the fork. Unless you’re calling ever professional racer ever wrong.

When your are turning you 1000% are depending on front end traction lol. You have to counteract the throttle by moving your weight forward. That’s why we sit way up near the gas tank and keep head over bars in turns with smooth throttle to weight the front end and get traction.

View attachment 178794

I never mind be corrected with good info, so thanks for the actual numbers on the current crop of MX bikes.

That said, I was a decent MX racer until I broke my spine in 2011, and I disagree on your take on front wheel traction. You load the front tire up with hard front brake use entering the turn to initiate the turn, after that you are hard on the throttle and the front tire is basically a direction indicator/ rut guidance system contributing very little to direction changes which come from rider balance and throttle use.

I feel inherently MTBs turn differently.

 

[Brawwp]

I never mind be corrected with good info, so thanks for the actual numbers on the current crop of MX bikes.

That said, I was a decent MX racer until I broke my spine in 2011, and I disagree on your take on front wheel traction. You load the front tire up with hard front brake use entering the turn to initiate the turn, after that you are hard on the throttle and the front tire is basically a direction indicator/ rut guidance system contributing very little to direction changes which come from rider balance and throttle use.

I feel inherently MTBs turn differently.

Sorry I came off a little harsh, didn’t mean to sound like a jerk.

Agree that mtbs turn a little differently, but that comes down to weight of the bike. In mtb our bodies are the heaviest weight. In moto it’s the bike. Moto depends on the surface. We arent riding mtb on sand tracks. Sand track in moto, yes your weight is a little more back to keep front lighter, but you still absolutely need front end traction. But on harder pack tracks this is where the turning is more comparable to mtb especially with newer riding style of standing further into corners and sometimes throughout (Jett Lawrence is the new god of moto technique and worth a watch as his attack position and technique is just as proper for mtb). You have to have front end traction or you will wash the front out. You do not “load the front” then go “hard on the throttle.” This is bad technique. You brake before entering the turn just like in mtb. You don’t blip or go “hard on the throttle” at all. That’s a beginner move. Your throttle should be controlled to keep front end traction and load the bike properly. You also weight outside peg like in mtb.

All good if you don’t agree though. Fun chat on that. I guess my whole point of comparing to moto was that there are a lot of similarities and this new stem design keeps the bar bend more in line with the steering axis which imo is where the benefits come from (similar to moto). It’s well known that a longer traditional bar stem is worse than short. People use longer stems for reach, but it’s more ideal to have shortest stem possible keeping bars closer to steering axis.

I’d love to hear the designer of this new stems input on this if they are on this forum. I could be talking out my butt, but I do know moto.

 

[Brawwp]

@Suns_PSD

These faq’s are directly from that stems website. It seems like they are taking direct inspiration from moto and the stuff I was just talking about.

 

[Suns_PSD]

Sorry I came off a little harsh, didn’t mean to sound like a jerk.

Agree that mtbs turn a little differently, but that comes down to weight of the bike. In mtb our bodies are the heaviest weight. In moto it’s the bike. Moto depends on the surface. We arent riding mtb on sand tracks. Sand track in moto, yes your weight is a little more back to keep front lighter, but you still absolutely need front end traction. But on harder pack tracks this is where the turning is more comparable to mtb especially with newer riding style of standing further into corners and sometimes throughout (Jett Lawrence is the new god of moto technique and worth a watch as his attack position and technique is just as proper for mtb). You have to have front end traction or you will wash the front out. You do not “load the front” then go “hard on the throttle.” This is bad technique. You brake before entering the turn just like in mtb. You don’t blip or go “hard on the throttle” at all. That’s a beginner move. Your throttle should be controlled to keep front end traction and load the bike properly. You also weight outside peg like in mtb.

All good if you don’t agree though. Fun chat on that. I guess my whole point of comparing to moto was that there are a lot of similarities and this new stem design keeps the bar bend more in line with the steering axis which imo is where the benefits come from (similar to moto). It’s well known that a longer traditional bar stem is worse than short. People use longer stems for reach, but it’s more ideal to have shortest stem possible keeping bars closer to steering axis.

I’d love to hear the designer of this new stems input on this if they are on this forum. I could be talking out my butt, but I do know moto.

This is a good detour if you ask me.

I was never that great at MX. In my prime I'd be the fastest guy at the local track on a practice day, but that's not the same thing as race day. However, road racing I set a class lap record and won races at a major speedway.

Every Pro rider has 40+ rwhp of roost in 2nd gear coming off their rear tires no later than by when about 40-50% of the turn is completed, even in flat turns. They actually start before that to pivot. The front tire is too light to bite and steer. Riders stay forward so as not to loop out but I stand by the idea that after the initial turn the front tire is more a rudder than anything else.

They steer off the rear tire, even Jett while standing.

 

[BeMoreBikes]

Liking the idea of this stem but at $400 + import duty into UK it could be an expensive experiment.
Found this website with a bike geometry calculator which if you input geometry of current bike then under bike number 2 should allow you to change bar and stem dimensions to get an idea of how reach, RAD AND SHO will be affected.
Bike Geometry Calculator - MAD SCIENTIST MTB

I often use that same calculator. If you are interested in some guidance for seeing if the stem is a good fit for you before buying, I’m here to answer any questions. Also, if you buy one, and find that we can’t working together get it to a setup that works better for you, then you can return it for a refund minus shipping.

 

[BeMoreBikes]

You say no current bikes are designed for the RR stem, but which currently available (or coming soon) e-bike (ideally Avinox powered) do you think would be most suitable for a 6'1 rider intending to try this stem and setup philosophy? I gave my height as chainstays tend not to grow proportionally with frame sizes.

Generally speaking at your height, I would want you on a reach roughly between 495mm and 515mm on a stack ideally close to 665mm - 690mm… There are few bikes with stacks that get close to that range, so just whatever has the highest stack in that reach range. If the stack is really low, I’d bias towards the long end of that reach range so that you can get more height by adjusting stem height, or taller bars while keeping in a similar effective reach range. The small end of that range is for a really nice everyday trail/enduro bike feel, the long end of the range is for something super stable and confident in gnarly sections while keeping good maneuverability. Going shorter than that range can be really fun for a more slalom bike feel while still keeping good confidence in steep and gnarly terrain. I’d also bias towards long chainstays in the 460mm plus range if possible, but it won’t be bad even on a more conventional chainstay length. You’ll just have to run the fork a little bit further softer and shock a little bit further firmer for balanced dynamic loading. Also, biasing towards slacker headtube angles is a good move. 64 degrees and slacker, but steeper will still work well. Beyond that, just pick the one you are most interested in and then install an RR stem.

 

[BeMoreBikes]

Please explain what you mean by a bike that’s setup traditional.

Running a traditional stem, and setup for running that traditional stem. This typically means that your fork will be normally loaded with some weight in your hands, and you can load it more if you want. If you unload off the hands, the front will be underloaded and undirected until you get back enough to start pulling on it and directing it. That gray zone where it’s underloaded, and you aren’t pulling and directing it where you want it to be is part of where you see a lot of washouts. With the RR stem, you can setup the fork so it’s normally loaded with zero hand load since it puts all your weight over your feet, and you can load it more if you want. There is no gray zone unloaded and undirected, as the only time it will be unloaded is while you are pulling and directing it where you want it. This kind of setup makes the front always perfectly loaded, loaded extra, or being pulled to somewhere and as such keeps a more consistent front tire loading for improved traction.

 

[BeMoreBikes]

Speaking out of place here but no one has longer CS's for a given reach than Forbidden (that I know of) once the growth at sag is accounted for. But also, they already have a lot of stack as well which might be a negative in this case.

There aren’t any frames currently with stack too high for a tall rider to be able to use this.

 

[BeMoreBikes]

These stems in many ways do the same as slackening the head angle. The "effective head angle" (I just invented that), that is angle between your hands and your front axle, will change a lot, and I think that's the main factor behind it feeling more composed. Its not the same as reducing reach, reducing reach brings the axle closer as well

As for high stack, look at old and new snow mobiles. New have super tall bars and are built to ride standing fully straight, and old are built to sit down and are "unrideable" by modern standards

100% agree. I always say that the Reversed offset simulates a much slacker effective head tube angle often in the range effectively of 59-58 degrees. The key differences from if you actually just had a bike with a super tall and short reach front at a 58 degree headtube angle are that the Reversed offset also reduces wheelflop at the hands for a more direct steering feel while going slacker like that greatly increases wheelflop, going super slack like that worsens fork actuation making the bushings work harder with more friction, and it misses the Reversed offset arcing towards the outside of the frame so that you can lean the bike over more for a given steering angle at the bars. That additional lean angle gives better sideknob engagement, carves a kinematically tighter turn, and gives a more predictable drift response.

 

[Brawwp]

@Suns_PSD
Mtb and moto cornering isn’t directly the same, I agree with that. I also agree you can use the rear end to turn a bike, but that’s not a blanket generalization for turning a dirtbike. Front end traction does matter though. I am simply comparing this stem and where it puts your bars to dirtbikes as it seems very similar and was my first thought when I saw it. This goes beyond cornering as well. I see this setup putting your body in a better position for probably all dh situations. Jumping, cornering, drops, rock gardens, stability at speed, etc.

I’d love to hear @BeMoreBikes comment on comparisons to moto and if there was any inspiration there. I may be completely wrong and I’m ok with that, no hard feelings if you guys correct me.

 

[ntm95]

495mm certainly IS a lot of reach for 6'!

Long arms, long legs, short torso.
Hence my long chainstay preferences.

 

[BeMoreBikes]

@Suns_PSD
Mtb and moto cornering isn’t directly the same, I agree with that. I also agree you can use the rear end to turn a bike, but that’s not a blanket generalization for turning a dirtbike. Front end traction does matter though. I am simply comparing this stem and where it puts your bars to dirtbikes as it seems very similar and was my first thought when I saw it. This goes beyond cornering as well. I see this setup putting your body in a better position for probably all dh situations. Jumping, cornering, drops, rock gardens, stability at speed, etc.

I’d love to hear @BeMoreBikes comment on comparisons to moto and if there was any inspiration there. I may be completely wrong and I’m ok with that, no hard feelings if you guys correct me.

Funnily enough, there was no inspiration from moto. I do not and have not ridden moto, and I found out how similar it was after having customers tell me it felt like their dirtbike.

I make the comparisons on the website because it is really similar, and there’s a decent number of mtbers with moto experience who can be helped to understand it better when they see that. If only I had a penny for every time I’ve heard that if this made any sense we would have seen it before in mtb or moto because they don’t realize mtb geo has been moving in this direction taller and shorter stems for years, and moto is already like this…

As you noted for bar sweeps, dirtbikes put your hands typically about 45-55mm behind the steering axis with their bar clamp location which is the same hand offset you have with the RR stem on typical mtb bar sweeps. Also, the angle feet to hands on a dirtbike is typically in the 65-66 degree range which is the same as you get with the RR stem. On most size L mtbs you are within mm for stack and reach to the hands as on most dirtbikes. I often like to joke that I could have saved myself 3 years of development if I just copied a dirtbike.

I came to the tuned -15mm Reversed offset with a notably Raised height over about 3 years experimenting from 70mm forward offset to -70mm Reversed offset from below traditional heights to about 80mm taller than the Gen 1 150mm RR stem and all kinds of heights and offsets in between across 9 different bikes with different frame sizes, wheel sizes, and geos.

 

[DirkWisely]

Generally speaking at your height, I would want you on a reach roughly between 495mm and 515mm on a stack ideally close to 665mm - 690mm… There are few bikes with stacks that get close to that range, so just whatever has the highest stack in that reach range. If the stack is really low, I’d bias towards the long end of that reach range so that you can get more height by adjusting stem height, or taller bars while keeping in a similar effective reach range. The small end of that range is for a really nice everyday trail/enduro bike feel, the long end of the range is for something super stable and confident in gnarly sections while keeping good maneuverability. Going shorter than that range can be really fun for a more slalom bike feel while still keeping good confidence in steep and gnarly terrain. I’d also bias towards long chainstays in the 460mm plus range if possible, but it won’t be bad even on a more conventional chainstay length. You’ll just have to run the fork a little bit further softer and shock a little bit further firmer for balanced dynamic loading. Also, biasing towards slacker headtube angles is a good move. 64 degrees and slacker, but steeper will still work well. Beyond that, just pick the one you are most interested in and then install an RR stem.

Do you have any initial setup tips for gen4 levo s4 for 5'11" rider?

 

[TTEngineer]

I personally am really intrigued at the RR stem.

The geo makes sense, but it’s an expensive experiment at $400.

My other issue: to really get the biggest benefit from a RR stem most riders would need to go up a size on a bike. For me, at 6’ my trail bike (Ripmo v1) has a reach of 493. I run a 35mm stem on that bike and uncut steer tube. On that bike it would probably be perfect, but it’s a long leg trail bike so the application doesn’t really fit.

On my crestline that’s coming, it would be more fitting, but I sized down to a Large for that bike for a more playful bike. With a 480 reach it’s a tad small for me with a RR stem.

I do really want to try one though, but already being $12k deep on this crestline, I’m not chomping at the bit to spend $400 more dollars on just a stem.

I may try to pick up a used one though.

If Intend makes there zero stem in a 35mm bar option, that would be a good choice too. But they don’t make them in 35mm bar … yet.

 

[BeMoreBikes]

Do you have any initial setup tips for gen4 levo s4 for 5'11" rider?

Yes. The sizing looks pretty good. Start with the stem tall with all the spacers below the stem. You can always go lower from there if you want, but if you start really low, and find you love it, you may not even try going taller and finding you love it even more. Next drop fork and front tire pressure by 10%. If the bike still feels like it loads rearward biased, try increasing shock and rear tire pressure by 10%. Don’t be afraid to play around to find the best balance for you, and if you over do it, you can always go back. I’ve had customers who didn’t need to change anything because they already loaded through their feet primarily, to one customer even dropping fork pressure by 50%. It all depends on where you are starting from, but the goal is the suspension compressing equally front and rear as you bounce down just through your feet. The second thing is likely adjusting the nose of your seat down for when you are climbing, and keeping your elbows and shoulders low pulling slightly back and down when you need to get forward instead of trying to get your arms up and over the bars more pulling up inline with the fork. Generally, the RR stem responds best to lots of bike lean and carving turns with good bike body separation. If you are leaning your body in and keeping the bike upright with lots of bar steering, then you’ll want to adjust that technique to be more bike lean centric. You’ll feel it when you ride it, it likes to lean. Let me know if you have further questions.

 

[BeMoreBikes]

I personally am really intrigued at the RR stem.

The geo makes sense, but it’s an expensive experiment at $400.

My other issue: to really get the biggest benefit from a RR stem most riders would need to go up a size on a bike. For me, at 6’ my trail bike (Ripmo v1) has a reach of 493. I run a 35mm stem on that bike and uncut steer tube. On that bike it would probably be perfect, but it’s a long leg trail bike so the application doesn’t really fit.

On my crestline that’s coming, it would be more fitting, but I sized down to a Large for that bike for a more playful bike. With a 480 reach it’s a tad small for me with a RR stem.

I do really want to try one though, but already being $12k deep on this crestline, I’m not chomping at the bit to spend $400 more dollars on just a stem.

I may try to pick up a used one though.

If Intend makes there zero stem in a 35mm bar option, that would be a good choice too. But they don’t make them in 35mm bar … yet.

All my happy customers are on the same size frame they were on before getting the RR stem. Most riders on modern mtb geo on the size recommended for them from their frame manufacturer will not need to change size. Your trail bike is well within range for workable reach numbers for your height, and I’ve got plenty of customers using it on their trail bikes and loving it. The Crestline with its decently tall stack and run with the reach adjust headset in +5mm would also put you just within range of where I would suggest you to be for the RR stem even with you having sized down. If you paired that with the long 460mm chainstay setup, you’d be in a really good spot actually. The RR stem is not “just a stem”, it’s a whole new geo philosophy, and the ride effect is more similar to getting a whole new bike with a radically different geo that isn’t available anywhere else than just a stem change. The price it is reflects the high tolerances and quality they are machined to in Covina CA from a large solid block of 7075 T6511 in small batches. Most other stems that have a high price bring basically no performance benefit. They have a higher quality relative to a cheap stem from amazon, but same geo so same handling. It’s worth the price though because it unlocks a ride dynamic unlike anything else that’s not otherwise available. The price relative to other performance enhancing products is actually quite comparable and most of those still have a less profound effect on ride feel. If you buy one and find that we can’t working together get you to a place that works well for you, you can return it for a refund minus shipping.

 

[BeMoreBikes]

I personally am really intrigued at the RR stem.

The geo makes sense, but it’s an expensive experiment at $400.

My other issue: to really get the biggest benefit from a RR stem most riders would need to go up a size on a bike. For me, at 6’ my trail bike (Ripmo v1) has a reach of 493. I run a 35mm stem on that bike and uncut steer tube. On that bike it would probably be perfect, but it’s a long leg trail bike so the application doesn’t really fit.

On my crestline that’s coming, it would be more fitting, but I sized down to a Large for that bike for a more playful bike. With a 480 reach it’s a tad small for me with a RR stem.

I do really want to try one though, but already being $12k deep on this crestline, I’m not chomping at the bit to spend $400 more dollars on just a stem.

I may try to pick up a used one though.

If Intend makes there zero stem in a 35mm bar option, that would be a good choice too. But they don’t make them in 35mm bar … yet.

Also, the RR stem is the only short stem for both 35mm bars and 31.8mm bars with the included bar shims that key into place both rotationally and side to side.

 

[Bikerchef1]

It’s great on a bike that would otherwise be too big and feel cumbersome. The Raised height combined with the closer bar position from the Reversed offset gives much more leverage over the frame to make it much easier to maneuver, and the Reversed offsets steering geometry helps the bike lean more to carve turns tighter with better sideknob engagement and a more predictable drift response.

Thanks for the reply. Makes me keen to try it. Now I just have to source one

 

[BeMoreBikes]

Thanks for the reply. Makes me keen to try it. Now I just have to source one

They are available for preorder for the next batch on my website. The next batch should be done and shipping in a few weeks.

 

[Bikerchef1]

They are available for preorder for the next batch on my website. The next batch should be done and shipping in a few weeks.

Ah your the mad scientist,genius inventor?! Awesome

 

[claudiobosticco]

Ah your the mad scientist,genius inventor?! Awesome

if you don’t know him, he’s worth following. The experiments he’s doing with frames are remarkable too! Instagram

 

[Bikerchef1]

if you don’t know him, he’s worth following. The experiments he’s doing with frames are remarkable too! Instagram

done.THe man can ride too!

 

[Onetime]

Possibly, but I'd add caution and say that most products are not designed for this and could have very negative consequences.

That disclaimer out the way, yes, for sure, there will be a ton of options - but you'd need to explore and hack some stuff together. I think if this concept is widely proven that it could be quite a pivotal moment for bike design and geometry.

One massive thing for me (discounting the DH benefits) is just how darn comfortable it is for seated pedaling / climbing.

That being said, there's a lot of folks online who have tried it and cant get it to work for them. So it's not something that seems to be a magic wand that will work on every bike.

I prefer long chainstays, big travel bikes, and am tall, so perhaps my combo of needs / body shape just works very well with something like this.

I’ve been running a similar setup for a few years now and I love it. Climbs great and descends even better! I started running it when I got my original Voima. I ran it with my 40 and a 10mm on/off stem and 40mm riser bars. When I run my bike with a 38, I use a 15mm Rulezman stem which is very similar stack/reach to my 40 setup. I’m only 5’7 so my setup isn’t as high as yours, but I still feel the same benefits. I think the problem for lots of people is the appearance. It’s so different looking than what they’re used to and it’s contrary to what they’ve been told for years, that they automatically dismiss it. And even when some people try it out, I think they look for ways to not like it, rather than having an open mind about it. Also, the suspension setup and geo of the bike matter too. Long chainstays and a steep seat tube angles seem to go very well with the high stack high rise cockpit and short stem. And I think a balanced rear and front center helps too. My current bike has a 450 reach and 455 chainstays. The whole package just works.

 

[Deleted member 37410]

I think my Kenevo looks badass with this setup, it looks like a proper DH bike (profile pic is a bit old, but its similar), looks super slack and moto

I am actually starting to think the stem on normal mtbs look really stupid after getting used to this

 

[Nomadic Dad]

I think my Kenevo looks badass with this setup, it looks like a proper DH bike (profile pic is a bit old, but its similar), looks super slack and moto

I am actually starting to think the stem on normal mtbs look really stupid after getting used to this

You should put a new picture up as I'd be keen to see your set up as I'm running a 2020 Kenevo mulleted with 180mm Fox 38 and loads of spacers underneath and love it but always open to new ideas

IMHO the Kenevo was ahead of it's time with the 454mm chainstay which works brilliant in S4 size and I still haven't found a different bike I'm willing to move over too yet

 

[irie]

You should put a new picture up as I'd be keen to see your set up as I'm running a 2020 Kenevo mulleted with 180mm Fox 38 and loads of spacers underneath and love it but always open to new ideas

View attachment 178839

IMHO the Kenevo was ahead of it's time with the 454mm chainstay which works brilliant in S4 size and I still haven't found a different bike I'm willing to move over too yet

Google says our 2022 alloy Trek Rails have 448mm chainstays, is Google lying?

 

[DomV]

Merci @BeMoreBikes pour vos messages et contributions. Votre produit a clairement eu un impact considérable sur de nombreux cyclistes. C'est formidable de voir son évolution ; j'attends avec impatience la version à fixation directe dès qu'elle sera disponible.

J'ai fait une autre sortie aujourd'hui dans les Surrey Hills. Terrain beaucoup plus plat, plein de virages serrés à plat, de sauts, de drops, du pur Surrey Hills. Le vélo était super. Beaucoup de gens se sont moqués de lui, pensant que je devrais faire du Rampage avec ! Mais après un moment, quand ils ont vu comment il se comportait, ils étaient plus intrigués.

Je me suis assis sur le VTT électrique enduro « traditionnel » de mon ami pendant qu'il faisait un petit essai, et à côté, le sien paraissait minuscule, comme un jouet.

Je vais utiliser cette configuration sur mon vélo pour un bon moment. @BeMoreBikes, quel concept génial !

Maybe a new video on your youtube channel Rob?

 

[rastablondi]

Found a two year old video on YT, also BMB part, but with a"little bit" higher stack