At this point, anything is rumors. There is big fines for breaking embargos. I think a lot can be said for not showing the actual motor and battery specs. Plus it's a fairly poor kept secret something new is coming from dji. I know nukeproof and Merida are working on bikes for this new/reviews motor. Will just have to wait.
Atherton S.170E eMTB
- Thread starter Zimmerframe
- Start date
I totally get the embargo, it's just that they've clearly listed the current M1 specs. It just seems a bit odd that they are reluctant to say anything about the motor or battery but the M1 specs are clealry listed in a large graphic on the landing page. As you say we'll have to wait, they did say when I ordered that if I'm not happy at launch they'll just refund it.
Yeah, maybe the new motor is the same.specs, just with the issues fixed. A new revision. Battery though from all I have heard is a completely new one. I hate waiting
Well the new motor will at minimum have the same power and tq numbers as the current motor so they can freely advertise that. Other stuff not public at this point so has to stay under wraps.
HappyCamperIan
Member
I'd say the Atherton's are the masters of marketing, and the new ebike is a great example of that...fairly fundamental unknowns, and yet they still sell out.
Be great to see all the specs and the complete bikes, including weights once the dji embargo has been lifted...will also be fascinating to see if similar spec batteries are also used on other non-boutique brands.
Brand engineering is working very well, and that's speaking as an early investor.
Be great to see all the specs and the complete bikes, including weights once the dji embargo has been lifted...will also be fascinating to see if similar spec batteries are also used on other non-boutique brands.
Brand engineering is working very well, and that's speaking as an early investor.
ericandrew
New Member
Who knows what's going on... there are enough rumours and anecdotal evidence to support 'an' update for the Avinox system, be it battery/motor both, minor updates or something more significant who know...
It could be a new 'flagship' motor, or a new 'entry level' motor to go along side the existing one....
What is clear, is you probably shouldn't draw too many conclusions from the Atherton product page.
The bike teaser images hide the motor, why would you do that unless it was 'new' and your under embargo, and its obviously different to the current one.
The product page shows an exploded motor picture, showing the housing etc, and the power specs..... why would you show the motor if that's not what's going to be on the bike.
Both can't be correct.....
So, either the product page 'motor' isn't actually what will come, or the bike product pictures are trying to generate hype based on motor speculation.
It could be a new 'flagship' motor, or a new 'entry level' motor to go along side the existing one....
What is clear, is you probably shouldn't draw too many conclusions from the Atherton product page.
The bike teaser images hide the motor, why would you do that unless it was 'new' and your under embargo, and its obviously different to the current one.
The product page shows an exploded motor picture, showing the housing etc, and the power specs..... why would you show the motor if that's not what's going to be on the bike.
Both can't be correct.....
So, either the product page 'motor' isn't actually what will come, or the bike product pictures are trying to generate hype based on motor speculation.
- Thread starter
- #37
@cream @emtbeast Mental challenge for you if you're interested.
We don't know the battery size on the Atherton bike (DJI) yet.
All the bikes take the same size battery. The bike image on page one seems to measure as a size 12 from my calculations.
The downtube looks to be approximately 6cm diameter (exterior)- but they might have moved that up slightly if it accommodates the cells better ? It seems to be round.
The size 12 could possibly squeeze in a 60cm battery length, but as they're all the same we can take 10cm off that, so we're limited to 50cm.
What's the max potential battery size they could squeeze into that with readily available cells ? (no idea which format - but 36v)
We don't know the battery size on the Atherton bike (DJI) yet.
All the bikes take the same size battery. The bike image on page one seems to measure as a size 12 from my calculations.
The downtube looks to be approximately 6cm diameter (exterior)- but they might have moved that up slightly if it accommodates the cells better ? It seems to be round.
The size 12 could possibly squeeze in a 60cm battery length, but as they're all the same we can take 10cm off that, so we're limited to 50cm.
What's the max potential battery size they could squeeze into that with readily available cells ? (no idea which format - but 36v)
My money is on something between 600Wh and 800Wh. When I spoke to them on the phone, I couldn't get any information regarding battery or motor, so I asked if I would get at least the same range as on my Gen 3 Levo with 700Wh. The answer was a hesitant "yes".
slickrock
Well-known member
That you own A200 is basically the point. At the end of the day Atherton is a business and growth (i.e. scaling) objectives are inherent part of business strategy. Do they want to as big as Specialized or Trek?, I doubt it. How about something like Ibis? They used to be boutique. Or how about Crestline, which is really boutique and seems quite satisfied staying small and making a limited number of frames, driving up demand like a Rolex limited series watch drop. What you are asserting is they can't scale with their original claim to fame technology and that this is frustrating their growth objectives. Well they can stay small and work with what they have, even if it displaces analog frame output, which would preserve their exclusivity. Its their choice, but the result is a aluminum DW4 ebike (of which there are plenty of competitors). Not their awesome gearbox downhill DW6 carbon/titanium wonder, where they could have easily swapped that gearbox with a motor. They would have a charged a premium for it, but wallets would have opened just the same.I can't explain any better why that's not actually going to happen mate. Making it the TI version simply isn't viable currently. Unless laying out a million+ to get another 3-d printing machine.
Trust me, i know how good the A200 is, i'm just about to go in the garage to finish cleaning one after a day at Dyfi yesterday
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The geo in the larger sizes is enough to turn me off.
Never mind the embargo on the dji battery, and weight.
I'm almost certain the current Avinox batteries are too large for the Atherton down tube so I think they're going with a 3rd party offering of their own design.
John_likes_bikes
Well-known member
It's odd Crestline has an embargo on their April release of Avinox hardware like everyone else but not the battery. They listed 600w and 800w. And why wouldn't they offer a new battery if it was available? With the downtube size/shape I have to think Atherton is using a custom battery. My guess is between 600 and 700w, what ever the increments the cells allow.
At the weight of 170E to do their claimed elevation it really can't be much less than 800w or the struggle will be real.
23ish kg depending on size. Which is very impressive for a cat5 burly ebike. Demoed a yeti lte carbon recently and that was 23kg. I'm hoping given the battery fits in a small it's going to be down low in the Atherton, should handle very well. I just can't see them releasing a bad bike. They have a fantastic team there
Plummet
Flash Git
Well its probably time to put this conversation to bed. Its pretty clear you don't have much understanding of carbon fibre repair methods or even how to asses when a carbon fibre part that has failed.
For the record, the top tube had cracked and delaminated internal almost the complete 360° with only a few strands holding it together. Repairing carbon via an external manual layup and then applying a compression wrap is a perfectly valid repair method. Resin ratio is not as optimized as the orginal autoclaved prepreg layup, also the the interface between parent material and the repair forms a mechanical bond with lower uts than the orginal layup and cure which forms a chemical bond. Even with a mechanical bond and reduced uts its pretty darn simple to apply a repair with additional material with enough tapered overlap to not only repair the frame but make that section stronger than original with very little increase in frame weight.
I'll leave it at that we we can go back to discussion the Atheton E bike.
Who says they're 'small' and what are we using as that parameter ? I don't see them as small at all and the fact they're now making an eeeb says they do want to grow.
The gearbox lugs take more than twice as long as the A200 standard bike to make, therefore decreasing actual production numbers possible, so adding that in would make it even less possible.
Don't forget just how many bikes you'd need to sell to make back £1,000,000 for a new machine (assuming that's still the cost of it).
Wallets already are opening up, they've sold all they can make... that's surely a sound business plan. EVERY frame they've offered for sale, is pre-sold... Even if some pull out of that as they don't like a particular feature, they'll still sell it ...
Maybe it's about common sense for them more than anything? I dunno, like yourself, i'm guessing here a bit.
That’s what I have been told new EMTB will be around 23/24kg. For my size.
slickrock
Well-known member
I don't want to second-guess their growth objectives, but what you are implying is they can't scale without abandoning the thing that makes them cool. Actually, $1.37M in equipment, when capitalized, and depreciated can be readily structured. But even without this, they could have taken a shot at making DW6 ebike with CNC alloy, but didn't. Had they, Atherton would have been the first on an ebike.
Just the same, Atherton's brand is strong enough to sustain the hype until full unveiling and probably well into the new season. When the dust settles though, you will end up with well-branded upscale ebike with an patent-expired DW4 suspension.
- Thread starter
- #50
ok, so to quote Ferris Buellers day off "Anyone ... Anyone ??" ..
Not my scene, but lying in bed last night I thought about the downtube cells. if they used 18650 format you could fit 3 side by side (you might have to V them slightly, depending on the V you might just squeeze in 21700's) with two stacked over and 2 above. which would fit into a 60mm round downtube. So 7. Think Darth Vader Advanced TIE fighter shape stuffed into a tube :
It has to be limited to about 50cm length for the smallest sized frame, so with connectors and end caps you can fit 7 length ways - giving you space for 49 cells. No idea how you get around squeezing that into a 13s4p (which might not even be correct) configuration, because you can't, so we'll ignore it and use it as an approximation.
I think the existing Amflow 600wh battery has 52 cells, but rumour has it that will be increasing in capacity in the gen2 batteries.
Therefore, assuming someone can work around the problems of turning fiction into something workable, then you're looking at a 630 (wild)-700wh (limit pushing) battery at a wild guess at the top end of wild guesses.
Not my scene, but lying in bed last night I thought about the downtube cells. if they used 18650 format you could fit 3 side by side (you might have to V them slightly, depending on the V you might just squeeze in 21700's) with two stacked over and 2 above. which would fit into a 60mm round downtube. So 7. Think Darth Vader Advanced TIE fighter shape stuffed into a tube :
It has to be limited to about 50cm length for the smallest sized frame, so with connectors and end caps you can fit 7 length ways - giving you space for 49 cells. No idea how you get around squeezing that into a 13s4p (which might not even be correct) configuration, because you can't, so we'll ignore it and use it as an approximation.
I think the existing Amflow 600wh battery has 52 cells, but rumour has it that will be increasing in capacity in the gen2 batteries.
Therefore, assuming someone can work around the problems of turning fiction into something workable, then you're looking at a 630 (wild)-700wh (limit pushing) battery at a wild guess at the top end of wild guesses.
be funny if its just a 600wh and all this hype was over nothing
It isn't, 100%. But can't say anymore
Why does dw4 versus dw6 matter? Both have positives and negatives. Dw4 might actually suit an ebike more. I also don't see anyone complaining about how the existing alloy Enduro and DH bikes feel and they use dw4. I go off feel. I don't care if it's the latest etc. if it handles and feels good, that's what matters. Dw4 is very easy to get feeling good. Has a wide range. I think for 99% of people it's a good choice. For the 1%, they will have a race team supporting them
According to this:
Ebike Battery Pack Energy Density Talk
Hello ebike community. I am seeing a lot of talk out there about new battery tech, high energy density etc...and it's giving me a bit of a headache seeing how easy it is for brands to wash people's minds with some easy marketing bs. I'm opening this thread for talk about new ebike energy pack...
www.emtbforums.com
The current Avinox 800wh battery is 561mm x 71mm x 49mm (L x W x H) with the cells stacked in a 7 x 3 x 2 (L x W x H) config.
It isn't, 100%. But can't say anymoreis it 800
- Thread starter
- #57
OK so if you use 21's you can only get 5 into the tube, but 18650's gets 7 still (58mm inner diam).According to this:
Ebike Battery Pack Energy Density Talk
Hello ebike community. I am seeing a lot of talk out there about new battery tech, high energy density etc...and it's giving me a bit of a headache seeing how easy it is for brands to wash people's minds with some easy marketing bs. I'm opening this thread for talk about new ebike energy pack...
The current Avinox 800wh battery is 561mm x 71mm x 49mm (L x W x H) with the cells stacked in a 7 x 3 x 2 (L x W x H) config.
I forgot about the BMS. so only 6 lengthways, not 7, but possibly 7 if they use a really small bms with the 18650 cells. therefore max of 42 cells with 6 or 49 with the 7 compared to 40 for 800wh battery with 21700's.
But a 21700 is 5500 mah or maybe 6000 for the next batch of amflows.
18650 is only 3500 mah so a 49 cell (if you could make one) would give about 640wh.
Using 6000 21700's would maybe give you something similar within the space available. 4680's would give you less I guess as you'd be wasting more space for something with about 5x the capacity of a 21700 - if you could make the voltages work.
Feck knows, maybe they've managed to squeeze a longer one in and end up with 800ish.
Maybe the downtube is wider than it looks ?! 63mm internal would give you space for 6*21700's, so then you're up near 800wh. 64mm internal and you're upto 7*21700's (this ignores relevant things like packaging).
Oooh, if you bump up the tube a couple of mill, we can get 8*7 18650's - so in the 700wh area.
So basically, I haven't got a clue !
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Wouldn't be surprised if it is a bit wider than it looks.Maybe the downtube is wider than it looks ?!
So basically, I haven't got a clue !
earleb
New Member
Current Avinox batteries use an older 21700 LG 5000 mah cell. 20wh per cell. 600wh is 10s3p, 30cells at 20wh = 600wh. 36v.
The packs are laid out in blocks of 6 cells stacked(2*3). With a custom battery using newer 6500mah cells in a 5 cell block Atherton's could do a ~720wh pack in a length just one block longer than the 600wh battery. The 5 cell cluster will fit in a ~65mm round downtube.
6000mah cells would be 666wh.
I am betting than DJI easily gets their hands on the latest 6500mah cells and it a ~720wh pack.
The packs are laid out in blocks of 6 cells stacked(2*3). With a custom battery using newer 6500mah cells in a 5 cell block Atherton's could do a ~720wh pack in a length just one block longer than the 600wh battery. The 5 cell cluster will fit in a ~65mm round downtube.
6000mah cells would be 666wh.
I am betting than DJI easily gets their hands on the latest 6500mah cells and it a ~720wh pack.
That's is incorrect. People can swing by the factory and see more. They just can't announce anythingIt isn't, 100%. But can't say anymore
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