Hacking ! Why ?

[Paul Mac]

Just got back from a blast on our local trails with my much better half and we haven’t stopped grinning we had so much fun. One of our bikes is derestricted the other is standard, equal fun for different reasons! ??View attachment 7745

You say equal fun, were you the one on the deresticted one ?

 

[Deleted member 1275]

You say equal fun, were you the one on the deresticted one ?

I couldn’t possibly say! ?

 

[Witte300]

I ride deristricted.
For riding in pack i’m not capable to keep the speed of the non e-bike riders. I’m just not fit enough to keep the speed 30km/h +. My top speed i can maintain is just under 40km/h, rpm’s getting to high for me. I enjoy my ride more this way, if i need the higher speed it’s possible. Do I ride fast always? Hell no! My average speeds are still around 20km/h.
My opinion on deristricting is simple, it’s on your own risk. My car kan drive 200km/h+, top speed we can drive here is 120. There are road cyclists that ride on cycle roads with speeds well over 45km/h, this with brakes impossible to stop them in a reasonable time. What do you do about them? It’s the manufacturer that make these speeds possible. Just my opinion, no offens of course.

 

[Doomanic]

What sort of terrain are you riding?

 

[Tamas]

"It’s the manufacturer that make these speeds possible."
Hmmm... don't 'blame' the manufacturers, they make the assist to cut off @25kph.
But of course, everybody has perfectly reasonable and valid justifications to derestrict their ebikes.

 

[Witte300]

I’m living in the more “flat” area in Belgium, meaning that the typical organized tours have around 500 hm incline for 50km. In the summertime we lookup the more fun parts, the Ardennes. The home tours are more fast rolling.

 

[Deleted member 1275]

Everyone’s reasons for derestricting or not are absolutely all valid. I fully respect them all. For me however, mountain biking (‘e’ or old skool) is about fun. Nothing other than fun. My ambition is not to ‘win’, or embarrass my non ‘e’ buddies, or to have the highest average speed on a loop, but purely to have fun. My road bike is about the Garmin data and improving on it for fitness reasons and all of it is to help make me a quicker motorcyclist. At 45 years old I am probably the unfittest and untalented guy on this forum, and do you know what? I am totally ok with that and happy to learn from all of you. Mountain biking for me is about smiles per mile and a learning exercise from you all.

Additionally, and as a final point, derestricting is not about trying to achieve the highest top speed but to negate the ‘treacle’ experience of my Bosch system which some random bureaucrat determined that in excess of 25kph meant that my motor and battery (which I paid a shed load of cash for) was deemed unsafe! I love evidence based decision making but have yet to see that in practice for this!!

 

[Tamas]

Everyone’s reasons for derestricting or not are absolutely all valid.

Yeah, and with that, we gave the legislators an absolutely valid reason on a golden plate to change the classification of the 25kph ebikes from bicycle to a moped and all can be 45kph s-pedelec.

 

[Deleted member 1275]

What was the valid reason we gave the legislaters? Not criticising - genuinely intersted about your opinion on this!

 

[Tamas]

If we say yes, it's absolutely valid and OK to derestrict the 25kph ebikes. Then we need to accept if the classification of the ebikes will change and the 25kph category will be 'erased' and all will be s-pedelec/moped. Right now they are classified as bicycles because of the limited assist speed (and the 250W continuous power), but it's not carved in stone.

 

[Deleted member 1275]

Sorry buddy but I have some experience professionally dealing with the European Commission surrounding issues with ‘validation’ and evidence-based decision making (not related with e bikes at all - in any way) but I still don’t know what you mean. Can you elaborate please?

To help clarify, in my post #99, when I said ‘valid’ I meant in the context of this thread and I apologise for the flippant use of English here - not helpful. In that context (post #99) I accept and respect people’s reasons for accepting or rejecting the restriction speed. Here I am asking something different. For example, to help clarify again, why does the USA have a restriction at a higher speed than the EU? Where is the evidence to make these decisions?

 

[Tamas]

Legislations can change that's all...

This is from Bosch:
"In legal terms, pedelecs with a support capacity of up to 25 km/h and an engine with a continuous rated power of up to 250 watts are equivalent to bicycles. As a result, eBike owners do not require any extra insurance, registration number or driving licence and are permitted to use cycle and forest paths. It's in everyone's best interest to maintain this status if we are to enjoy the same rights and freedoms as other cyclists."

 

[Deleted member 1275]

Thanks Tamas but we are talking about different things here. I will bail out of the discussion at this point. Im not talking about accepting the law but why and on what evidence are the laws determined and approved. Perhaps the 25kph limit in the EU is not safety based? Anyway, I will leave it to you fine people to discuss. ?

 

[Doomanic]

Just be grateful you're not in NI...

In Northern Ireland, you need a moped licence to ride any electric bike. The bike must also be registered, taxed and insured.

 

[Albez]

Thanks Tamas but we are talking about different things here. I will bail out of the discussion at this point. Im not talking about accepting the law but why and on what evidence are the laws determined and approved. Perhaps the 25kph limit in the EU is not safety based? Anyway, I will leave it to you fine people to discuss. ?

The reason why the limit is set to 25kph in the EU is because one of the legislatures got hit by an electric bike and then decided to get the classification changed. I read it somewhere on Facebook.

 

[Albez]

Just be grateful you're not in NI...

That sucks, so everyone in Ireland must ride around with an integrated battery then.. eh shouldn't they come under EU legislation though?

 

[Doomanic]

shouldn't they come under EU legislation though?

I would have thought so, but that doesn't appear to be the case. The UK only adopted the EU rules quite recently, before that the limit was 200W and 20kph if I recall correctly.

 

[Albez]

I would have thought so, but that doesn't appear to be the case. The UK only adopted the EU rules quite recently, before that the limit was 200W and 20kph if I recall correctly.

Oh, that's not good then, better of in the EU.

 

[Al Boneta]

I derestricted mine. The motor went and I still got it replaced under warranty. So don’t worry about that.

Your motor may have been replaced under warranty that time, but there is no guarantee that it will be the same result for someone else.
I had a customer shred his belt on his Levo and they took care of it, even though he had it unlocked with BLEvo.
Two weeks later they wouldn’t take care of another customer under the same circumstances. My shop ended up eating the cost for that one.
I am not going to do that again

 

[Mcharza]

Legislations can change that's all...

This is from Bosch:
"In legal terms, pedelecs with a support capacity of up to 25 km/h and an engine with a continuous rated power of up to 250 watts are equivalent to bicycles. As a result, eBike owners do not require any extra insurance, registration number or driving licence and are permitted to use cycle and forest paths. It's in everyone's best interest to maintain this status if we are to enjoy the same rights and freedoms as other cyclists."

This!
With those restrictions eBike owners can ride in the same places as mtb's.
Otherwise it's a e-moped and rules like a moped.

 

[LawmanMtb]

i find it dangerous hitting medium to large jumps on my E as the drag kicks in and it messes the whole approach, i have come short on many jumps i can easily clear on my acoustic fatbike! 15.6 is an Awful speed to limit at IMO :/

 

[Lad]

.... For example, to help clarify again, why does the USA have a restriction at a higher speed than the EU? Where is the evidence to make these decisions?

Another bizarre one: Australia 25km/h, New Zealand 32km/h. . Virtually the same landscape (at least on the North Island), population density, roads infrastructure load.

Obviously different bureaucrats in Transport (or whatever) ministry makes the rule what is safe and what is not.

 

[Tetsugaku]

Your motor may have been replaced under warranty that time, but there is no guarantee that it will be the same result for someone else.
I had a customer shred his belt on his Levo and they took care of it, even though he had it unlocked with BLEvo.
Two weeks later they wouldn’t take care of another customer under the same circumstances. My shop ended up eating the cost for that one.
I am not going to do that again

Sales of goods act doesn't work that way. I could keep on taking this thing back again and again and again if I wanted to and if they didn't fix it I'd take them to court

 

[MattyB]

Another bizarre one: Australia 25km/h, New Zealand 32km/h. . Virtually the same landscape (at least on the North Island), population density, roads infrastructure load.

Obviously different bureaucrats in Transport (or whatever) ministry makes the rule what is safe and what is not.

The flaw in your logic is assuming they use data or even logic to make thes rules. I suspect most countries looking to implement ebike laws from scratch simply Google what others have done and implement the first set of regs they find...

 

[mark.ai]

Sales of goods act doesn't work that way. I could keep on taking this thing back again and again and again if I wanted to and if they didn't fix it I'd take them to court

But in the case as mentioned of riding an illegal (derestricted) e-bike would you really want to go to court?!

 

[Tetsugaku]

But in the case as mentioned of riding an illegal (derestricted) e-bike would you really want to go to court?!

Derestricting isn’t illegal. Riding a assisted bike that can go faster than 25kph on the road is - not the same thing. I’d like to see Specialized prove that I rode a bike on the road rather than a mountain.

 

[Dax]

Sales of goods act doesn't work that way. I could keep on taking this thing back again and again and again if I wanted to and if they didn't fix it I'd take them to court

Pretty sure sale of goods act doesn't cover cases where you breach the terms of the warranty but want them to fix it anyway, but im not a lawyer.

 

[Tetsugaku]

Pretty sure sale of goods act doesn't cover cases where you breach the terms of the warranty but want them to fix it anyway, but im not a lawyer.

Terms of the warranty are not relevant - statutory rights always exceeds those manufacturer supplied warranties.

 

[Doomanic]

So what’s your statutory right here?

 

[Tetsugaku]

When you buy something it should last a reasonable amount of time under reasonable use. It’s a mountain bike. I should be able to ride it up and down one all day long.