Haibike Allmtn 6/7 upgrade

[sunstoner]

Hi All

Got me first emtb last August and im loving it.

Told my lbs that as non mtb'er id be heading out with my young kids, looking to do gravel trails and light off road routes. More tour'y than blasting through trees. So opted for the hard tail Hardseven 8 which i love to pieces.

But im loving it so much my use has changed and trying a mix of tougher (for me) offroad trails, some bike parks and have planned longer offroad routes. So..im considering changing to either Allmtn 6 or 7.

My only concern and only little one im sure is the motor. I love the punchy Bosch and its 85nm grunt.

Has anyone else changed from the Bosch to the PW-X2 and what are your thoughts? I know it'll be another great motor as im sure Haibike wouldnt have done it otherwise, its purely because im enjoying the Bosch so i thought id ask.

Cheers

 

[R120]

I think if you are used to the Bosch Gen 4 then you might find the Yamaha wanting - its not a bad motor, but the quality of software, especially EMTB mode on the Bosch is significantly better on the Bosch IMO, and really thats what sets the user experience of the motors apart. The Bosch also has much wider dealer/service back up if you are not buying the bike locally.

 

[R120]

Whats you current bike - if you are planning on keeping it and getting the new bike then having the ability to have two batteries etc by having two Bosch bikes isn't o be underestimated - if you go on a trip somewhere, like a bike par, having a spare battery is super useful.

 

[sunstoner]

I think if you are used to the Bosch Gen 4 then you might find the Yamaha wanting - its not a bad motor, but the quality of software, especially EMTB mode on the Bosch is significantly better on the Bosch IMO, and really thats what sets the user experience of the motors apart. The Bosch also has much wider dealer/service back up if you are not buying the bike locally.

Thanks for your feedback on this. I may have some further head scratching to do over this one.

Ive read and watched many good reviews on the bosch motor before I bought mine and understand its qualities and Im inclined to stick with Haibike as my experience has been a good one.

More reading / watching to do I think.

 

[RichardHawes]

I went from a bosch cube granted not a 4 to a allmtn7 which I much prefer I think the bike is better but I love the simplicity of the yam motor in my experience.

 

[sunstoner]

Whats you current bike - if you are planning on keeping it and getting the new bike then having the ability to have two batteries etc by having two Bosch bikes isn't o be underestimated - if you go on a trip somewhere, like a bike par, having a spare battery is super useful.

Its a good idea but I was looking to sell or trade my current bike in. Its a hardtail, Hardseven 8, new last August.

Thats another good point. Can you fit a 2nd battery to thecAllmtn 6 or 7? ?

 

[sunstoner]

I went from a bosch cube granted not a 4 to a allmtn7 which I much prefer I think the bike is better but I love the simplicity of the yam motor and if thinking about de restrict it is much easier than the bosch gen 4 and less problems in my experience.

How does the yam motor feel when in use? Im assuming its got all power you could want?

 

[R120]

All motors have more than enough power, its the software which governs the power delivery that is the difference between them and what dictates how they feel to use, and to some extent how powerful they feel.

@Rob Rides EMTB has spent a fair bit of time on both motors, and had the All Mtn 7 on test for a couple of months - he can probably give you a good overview of the differences as he has ridden the Bosch Haibike too.

 

[sunstoner]

All motors have more than enough power, its the software which governs the power delivery that is the difference between them and what dictates how they feel to use, and to some extent how powerful they feel.

@Rob Rides EMTB has spent a fair bit of time on both motors, and had the All Mtn 7 on test for a couple of months - he can probably give you a good overview of the differences as he has ridden the Bosch Haibike too.

Thanks for the pointer, I did watch his review of the Allmtn 7 when he released it and I remember it was well received and other reviewers have pretty much said the same too.

 

[RichardHawes]

How does the yam motor feel when in use? Im assuming its got all power you could want?

My vote would be for the yamaha motor

 

[Morpheous]

My vote would be for the yamaha motor but I have derestricted and love it.

What derestrict box did you use? Cheers

 

[RichardHawes]

What derestrict box did you use? Cheers

I used speedbox2 easy fit and works a treat.

 

[Morpheous]

Thanks

What is the difference in the ride between having the speedbox and not? Cheers

 

[RichardHawes]

Thanks

What is the difference in the ride between having the speedbox and not? Cheers

Nothing it just removes the assist speed limit so instead of the pedal assist stopping at the set limit it continues as long as you can pedal.

 

[sunstoner]

Nothing it just removes the assist speed limit so instead of the pedal assist stopping at the set limit it continues as long as you can pedal.

I've not had a an emtb very long so havent tried a derestricted one. Do you have watch your battery use co I bet its east to get carried away when you're giving it some!

 

[Morpheous]

Does anyone know what tool is required to remove the crank nut on the Yamaha paw-x2?

 

[sunstoner]

Having a look at other 2021 Allmtn comparisons. Comparing the 5 to the 6 now.

An interesting comparison. Theres only £100 difference and yet the 6 has a full carbon frame V the 5s alu frame. The 6 has the Yam Pw-X2 motor V 5s Bosch CX 4th gen and the 6 has the more expensive Fox 38 forks Vs RockShox, Lyrik Ultimate RC and yet there is only £100 between them in price.

Is it the Bosch motor thats upping the cost of the allmtn 5 I wonder because the 6 seems a greater spec'd bike than the £100 difference ?!

PS Why are Haibike hiding the weights of these things?!

 

[R120]

The Yamaha based Haibikes offer great value for the spec, and have been big sellers I believe for Haibike, so I think thats why there is more of a focus on them - presumably the Yamaha is cheaper to buy for them to achieve this or they have done a deal with Yamaha to focus on their motors but who knows!

I also wonder if there are some wider restructuring of brands focus's with the parent group. Haibike is part of the Accell Group, which owns Raleigh, La Pierre and Ghost among others

Accell Group - The Premier Cycle Group - Accell Group,Accell,Koga,Batavus,Lapierre,Seattle Bike Supply,Loekie,Sparta // Our brands

Accell Group is an international group of companies with strong quality brands that occupy prominent positions in a number of key markets for bicycles, bicycle parts, bicycle accessories and fitness equipment.

www.accell-group.com

It seems to me that Haibike are focusing on using the Yamaha more now for their high end MTB's, and perhaps the other brands are being left to focus on the Bosch systems at the higher end - I know Ghost is bringing out some interesting higher end Bosch bikes over the next year, and of course La Pierre has a range of high end Bosch bikes including the pretty innovative GLP.

 

[Jackware]

The Yamaha based Haibikes offer great value for the spec, and have been big sellers I believe for Haibike, so I think thats why there is more of a focus on them - presumably the Yamaha is cheaper to buy for them to achieve this or they have done a deal with Yamaha to focus on their motors but who knows!

I also wonder if there are some wider restructuring of brands focus's with the parent group. Haibike is part of the Accell Group, which owns Raleigh, La Pierre and Ghost among others

Accell Group - The Premier Cycle Group - Accell Group,Accell,Koga,Batavus,Lapierre,Seattle Bike Supply,Loekie,Sparta // Our brands

Accell Group is an international group of companies with strong quality brands that occupy prominent positions in a number of key markets for bicycles, bicycle parts, bicycle accessories and fitness equipment.

www.accell-group.com

It seems to me that Haibike are focusing on using the Yamaha more now for their high end MTB's, and perhaps the other brands are being left to focus on the Bosch systems at the higher end - I know Ghost is bringing out some interesting higher end Bosch bikes over the next year, and of course La Pierre has a range of high end Bosch bikes including the pretty innovative GLP.

I agree, having watched a Haibike person on an EMBN YT video trying to explain how the Flyon was an attempt at making Haibike stand out and be more individual, even though their and most manufacturers' bikes are just different frames to hang common components on. I wonder if their focus on the Yamaha system is another way to differentiate from other manufacturers?

 

[sunstoner]

The Yamaha based Haibikes offer great value for the spec, and have been big sellers I believe for Haibike, so I think thats why there is more of a focus on them - presumably the Yamaha is cheaper to buy for them to achieve this or they have done a deal with Yamaha to focus on their motors but who knows!

I also wonder if there are some wider restructuring of brands focus's with the parent group. Haibike is part of the Accell Group, which owns Raleigh, La Pierre and Ghost among others

Accell Group - The Premier Cycle Group - Accell Group,Accell,Koga,Batavus,Lapierre,Seattle Bike Supply,Loekie,Sparta // Our brands

Accell Group is an international group of companies with strong quality brands that occupy prominent positions in a number of key markets for bicycles, bicycle parts, bicycle accessories and fitness equipment.

www.accell-group.com

It seems to me that Haibike are focusing on using the Yamaha more now for their high end MTB's, and perhaps the other brands are being left to focus on the Bosch systems at the higher end - I know Ghost is bringing out some interesting higher end Bosch bikes over the next year, and of course La Pierre has a range of high end Bosch bikes including the pretty innovative GLP.

Thanks for your thoughts on this @R120 @Jackware .

Do you envisage a perception issue with haibike customers forking out the bigger bucks for the Yam 80nm power over the cheaper models with their Bosch 85nm?! . The flyon was / is a statement motor. In so much as, if you've got one, then your bike is pretty fly(on)! - this question says more about me than anything else

 

[Jackware]

Thanks for your thoughts on this @R120 @Jackware .

Do you envisage a perception issue with haibike customers forking out the bigger bucks for the Yam 80nm power over the cheaper models with their Bosch 85nm?! . The flyon was / is a statement motor. In so much as, if you've got one, then your bike is pretty fly(on)! - this question says more about me than anything else

I think most ebikers are less concerned about that than the marketing and PR departments of the bike companies. There is very little (as far as I've seen) snobbery about brands and components.

 

[Jackware]

I've not had a an emtb very long so havent tried a derestricted one. Do you have watch your battery use co I bet its east to get carried away when you're giving it some!

IME it only really affects the range if you're including a lot of tarmac or clear fire road in your route where you can exceed the normal limit easily and consistently.

 

[Tubby G]

Having a look at other 2021 Allmtn comparisons. Comparing the 5 to the 6 now.

An interesting comparison. Theres only £100 difference and yet the 6 has a full carbon frame V the 5s alu frame. The 6 has the Yam Pw-X2 motor V 5s Bosch CX 4th gen and the 6 has the more expensive Fox 38 forks Vs RockShox, Lyrik Ultimate RC and yet there is only £100 between them in price.

Is it the Bosch motor thats upping the cost of the allmtn 5 I wonder because the 6 seems a greater spec'd bike than the £100 difference ?!

PS Why are Haibike hiding the weights of these things?!

I tried out the AllMtn 5 yesterday and have to say its fantastic. York shop has two in stock in L at present too. I was tempted to go for the 5, but thought the spec of the 4 meets my needs and saved me a fair few quid. I can always upgrade rims and components as and when I need to

 

[R120]

I would say that the Yamaha system definitely sits behind the Bosch, Shimano and Brose systems in terms of the wider buying publics/EMTB communities "rating" of the systems. I also don't think you would find any of the people who regularly test all the various systems and bikes putting the Yamaha at the top of the pile. Part of this is to do with the fact it isn't used on that many bikes so hasn't had as much exposure.

Having said that I doubt the majority of people buying EMTB's really care, and for me the latest Motors are all much of a muchness, and how the bike actually rides on the trails is more important to me than the motor in it. They are all powerful enough, and its actually very rarely if ever where the difference in power (TQ aside) will be relevant or noticeable.

This not to say it isn't a good system, but the older version definitely wasn't on a par with the competition, the latest is much better. Really the main differences between the stymies that you notice when riding them in the software and how the modes are programmed

None of the systems is perfect, I would say the best overall system out there at the moment out of the box is the Bosch Gen 4, with the Shimano and Brose systems closely behind. This is mainly due to the software on the Bosch, in particular its EMTB mode, plus it being a generally very reliable platform. There are lots of plus and minus to each system, but I would say the software on the Yamaha isn't quite up there with the best.

 

[sunstoner]

IME it only really affects the range if you're including a lot of tarmac or clear fire road in your route where you can exceed the normal limit easily and consistently.

I guess I can see that. The natural paths and trails will keep your speed down keeping a lid on the power usage. Its very tempting I have to say.

 

[sunstoner]

I tried out the AllMtn 5 yesterday and have to say its fantastic. York shop has two in stock in L at present too. I was tempted to go for the 5, but thought the spec of the 4 meets my needs and saved me a fair few quid. I can always upgrade rims and components as and when I need to

I was very temped by the 6 but Ive thoroughly enjoyed the Bosch motor that the thought of getting the Yamaha motor puts me off, even though id be surprised If Id notice any discernible difference. I know, its daft.

So...I looked at the 5 this morning and with its Bosch motor I could be v temped. Btw, as well as your colour I like the 4 too in that orangey yellow colour

 

[Tubby G]

I was very temped by the 6 but Ive thoroughly enjoyed the Bosch motor that the thought of getting the Yamaha motor puts me off, even though id be surprised If Id notice any discernible difference. I know, its daft.

So...I looked at the 5 this morning and with its Bosch motor I could be v temped. Btw, as well as your colour I like the 4 too in that orangey yellow colour

Yes I was after the Lava colour originally but was told by Jamie in store that the funkier colours tend to be sold in mainland Europe and UK get the black & greys! The grey is nice though, I call it the Audi R8 Matte Grey! Apparently Haibike use the same painting process as VW so it could well be the same. The 4 is a decent spec bike, all the components seem to be at least ‘mid-range’ which is plenty for my experience & requirements

 

[sunstoner]

I would say that the Yamaha system definitely sits behind the Bosch, Shimano and Brose systems in terms of the wider buying publics/EMTB communities "rating" of the systems. I also don't think you would find any of the people who regularly test all the various systems and bikes putting the Yamaha at the top of the pile. Part of this is to do with the fact it isn't used on that many bikes so hasn't had as much exposure.

Having said that I doubt the majority of people buying EMTB's really care, and for me the latest Motors are all much of a muchness, and how the bike actually rides on the trails is more important to me than the motor in it. They are all powerful enough, and its actually very rarely if ever where the difference in power (TQ aside) will be relevant or noticeable.

This not to say it isn't a good system, but the older version definitely wasn't on a par with the competition, the latest is much better. Really the main differences between the stymies that you notice when riding them in the software and how the modes are programmed

None of the systems is perfect, I would say the best overall system out there at the moment out of the box is the Bosch Gen 4, with the Shimano and Brose systems closely behind. This is mainly due to the software on the Bosch, in particular its EMTB mode, plus it being a generally very reliable platform. There are lots of plus and minus to each system, but I would say the software on the Yamaha isn't quite up there with the best.

Having only owned the 1 emtb with its bosch motor, Its done a great job of getting me out and about and the EMTB mode is great too as mentioned. I struggle with the thought of having a different motor. its probably me age!

 

[R120]

Nardo Grey

 

[Tubby G]

Nardo Grey

Yes that’s the one