Who actually wants more than 85nm and 400%

[Zimmerframe]

I'll get back to you, once you figured out what is a Pro Attlet.
Thank you

As someone who has no interest in this discussion, I still have no idea what that means other than what @Onetime already proposed - so you'll have to explain more or I suspect the conversation isn't going anywhere.

 

[Mario Antony]

When I wrote Attlet, it should read: Athlete.

It looked strange, but didn't bother to look at. Sorry for misleading and my english.

So, everyone knows what is a PRO ATHELETE (Not attlet)?

 

[bmwpowere36m3]

As someone who has no interest in this discussion, I still have no idea what that means other than what @Onetime already proposed - so you'll have to explain more or I suspect the conversation isn't going anywhere.

I think he means pro athletes...

Obviously opinion, but its a bit philosophical in "what is or what should e/MTB be". MTB is always going to be harder than eMTB. However you can do things on an eMTB you can't on a MTB. You can also make eMTB as hard as you want. Human nature, folks don't buy an eMTB for "harder".

Listening to a recent Pinkbike podcast and topic is whether enduro category is dying. eMTB sales and folks ambition for "big" missions or sending big features on regular rides are dropping.

I don't know what the answer is... but I'm sure something will change at the rate we are going at.

 

[Singletrackmind]

There are a lot of IAFH members (International Avinox Forum Hammers) now who see every post that isn’t super positive about Avinox or de-restriction as a nail to be hit.

De-restriction has crept out of the de-restriction section now as well, three posts just this morning mentioning they’ve geo-unlocked their bike, praising the ease with which assist speed can be raised and the other actually saying how you do it.

Even the people who get very exercised and insulting about not mentioning it outside of the de-restriction section aren’t kicking off, probably because it’s an ‘IAFH’ member…

The Avinox is a great motor system for sure, I’ve never said otherwise, and it’s brought about change in the EMTB industry, and forums for that matter.

Some of it good, some not so much.

With great power comes great responsibilities

 

[steve_sordy]

I Understand the Enjoyment thing.
But let's put this way:

If you go on a ride, a technincal one (meaning red, black and double black), will you enjoy if you aren't capable?
Is the problem the trails?

The same with ALL rides.
Everyone must enjoy themselfs, but in a reasonable and sincerelly rides must be adapt, so that all can make it.

Meaning:
The level field, should be what the least capable rider can do... NOT the: let's pump MO'POWA because grandpa want's to join us!

I am not dead yet! I still need to challenge myself.

 

[Plummet]

I have to admit that ripping around on the new bosch setting of 120nm 750w is addictive and If I want to stand a chance of keeping up with my dji mates on fast rides thats what ill do.

But im typically riding 70nm or 90nm mode. I chucked my bike in 120nm/750w mode at a mate used to shimano ep8 with 500w 85nm. He jumped on in and promptly boosted himself off the track and was like wtf is this. We had a discussion around imagine the 1500w 150nm dji setting must be like a low powered moto. Really its not really assisted mtb anymore.

He'll the bosch 120nm 750w is freaken grunty. Thats more than anyone needs to ride an mtb.

 

[Mikerb]

I have to admit that ripping around on the new bosch setting of 120nm 750w is addictive and If I want to stand a chance of keeping up with my dji mates on fast rides thats what ill do.

But im typically riding 70nm or 90nm mode. I chucked my bike in 120nm/750w mode at a mate used to shimano ep8 with 500w 85nm. He jumped on in and promptly boosted himself off the track and was like wtf is this. We had a discussion around imagine the 1500w 150nm dji setting must be like a low powered moto. Really its not really assisted mtb anymore.

He'll the bosch 120nm 750w is freaken grunty. Thats more than anyone needs to ride an mtb.

Yep I have emtb set at 5 assist 3 dynamic , 95nm and 600 watts.......and use that for most of any ride. I have cleaned every climb and overall only use about 5% extra battery than emtb previously at 85nm 400 watts. I set turbo at the full monty but only found that useful for long steep non technical climbs. The only other mode I use is tour for road sections of a longer ride ( set 3/2 90nm 400w)

 

[Mikerb]

Yep I have emtb set at 5 assist 3 dynamic , 95nm and 600 watts.......and use that for most of any ride. I have cleaned every climb and overall only use about 5% extra battery than emtb previously at 85nm 400 watts. I set turbo at the full monty but only found that useful for long steep non technical climbs. The only other mode I use is tour for road sections of a longer ride ( set 3/2 90nm 400w)

Nb for me speed is not relevant except on downhills....and motor plays no role then! I tune for tech climbing ability, ease, range, and drivetrain sympathy.

 

[Mario Antony]

I am not dead yet! I still need to challenge myself.

Hope you live long and enjoy a healthy life.

But one thing is Hard trails - let it be up or down, and then, there are easy more accessible trails.
MTB/emtb rides can be described by:
- Distance
- Elevation
- Speed
- Trail Tech

Me, personally, I like both ends of the spectrum, because. life cannot be hard all the time, so ridding a flow Blue Line, is sometimes like gold over blue!
But other times, nothing like a short (less than 3h), really hard trails, with some really nice elevation.

Being fit, is part of any sport, and with all this "power wars", it seems some wants to have the sweetness of the sport, without any bitterness.......
That's not MTB/eMTB is all about, and probably would be better off , with something with a motor, but without pedals... just saying!

 

[fernmanus]

However, the most useful advantage may be applying it in the Shuttle mode. We’ve used full Turbo assist several times on paved or dirt roads to get to trailheads or to return to camp. It saves time and legs and has allowed us to ride back-to-back-to-back days. The 28mph max speed setting is especially appreciated on paved sections.

I agree! The primary use for the additional power for me is for getting to and from the trail without using a car to shuttle.

 

[mike.turnstone]

So have we determined everyone is different yet

 

[roabsn]

The market is big enough for everyone and offers the right system for every rider.

For my part, I’m sticking with smaller motors, even if they don’t cater to the latest hype.
I’ve always bought last year’s models since I started cycling, and that’s how it’s going to stay.
Light e-MTBs—or bikes with smaller motors—are here to stay for the long haul.

 

[slickrock]

...

However, the most useful advantage may be applying it in the Shuttle mode. We’ve used full Turbo assist several times on paved or dirt roads to get to trailheads or to return to camp. It saves time and legs and has allowed us to ride back-to-back-to-back days. The 28mph max speed setting is especially appreciated on paved sections.

I second this motion. Now that I've used the M2S on my Rogue, I'm beyond spoiled, almost intoxicated by it. Most of my riding as of late is from my house, so the ability to shuttle quickly to trailhead is just huge. I drop to Class 1 at the trailhead, but here are those moments on some mundane fire roads that you just want to blast thru to get to the better sections of the trail system. Once there, then utilize your depowered profile they way you are used to riding an EMTB.

I really came into this thinking that I really didn't need this power, but that has changed; boosted by the fact that Avinox did a good job of integrating that power into the pedaling experience. It's unfortunate that this has instantly aged out my Bosch Gen 4 bike downduro beastie, but it did.

 

[TonTonUB]

Who actually wants more than the traditional full power 85nm e-bike.

I dont need more. I miss the days when pretty much all full power e's were very similar power. We could go on group e rides and every one had a similar amount of grunt and when it came to a challenge like riding up a tech section then whoever cleaned that section was the better rider on the day. Now full power e's are wildy different and nz with different top speeds too. Now its not who cleaned that section best due to skill but who turned up on the most powerful bike...


Ahhh the good old days.

'traditionnal full power ...' is abusive, since '85 Nm - 500 / 600 W peakt lasted maybe 3-5 years.
More power need a lot of skill to be effectively applied when climbing up black trails or trializing (this is no A.I. driving)
I think the M1 power will become the reference (whatever the arms race), and the way it's delivered will be hard rivaled.
In the end, the rider's skill will always prevail.

But i can agree that more than 120 NM / 1000W peak (i only use 800 W peak / 100 NM on my M1) is useless / out of topic / irrelevant EXCEPT for very specific use.

on another note, i think that the rise of CVT / speedbox will reshuffle everything.

Speed limit will remains, and contain the abuse (as long as peoples dont derestrict)

Also, the % assist is not always relevant, nor the power, since rider's weight affect things more (energy consumption, power needed to benefit from the same assistance than a lighter rider - at the same speed).

I think we should start to discuss and label thing like this : Nm and W of peak power PAR unit of rider + bike mass (lbs or kg) TO BE RELEVANT.

 

[Weeksy]

I rode an Atherton A170E at the weekend... Without doubt i have 0 need or want for that level of power... it's just daft.

 

[Rando_12345]

Part of the issue is the arms race at a local level. I have been competing with the same guys for KOMs on Strava for 15years, first on regular MTBs then on ebikes. Until recently whether you were on a Bosch, Shimano or Yamaha, it didn't really affect anything on the downhills (different story uphill, but gaps were not that crazy). Now a friend that is statistically as fast as me bought a shuttle ampd, and has smashed every single KOM in the area by an unmatchable margin for those without an M2S.

So even though I'm pretty sure I would rarely use more than 800w/100Nm to get better range, I would certainly put the boost mode on here and there trying to set a good time. Thus leading to the local arms race all over again.

 

[Brawwp]

i would certainly put the boost mode on here and there trying to set a good time. Thus leading to the local arms race all over again.

Sounds fun, you should do it

 

[Tumid1]

Part of the issue is the arms race at a local level. I have been competing with the same guys for KOMs on Strava for 15years, first on regular MTBs then on ebikes. Until recently whether you were on a Bosch, Shimano or Yamaha, it didn't really affect anything on the downhills (different story uphill, but gaps were not that crazy). Now a friend that is statistically as fast as me bought a shuttle ampd, and has smashed every single KOM in the area by an unmatchable margin for those without an M2S.

So even though I'm pretty sure I would rarely use more than 800w/100Nm to get better range, I would certainly put the boost mode on here and there trying to set a good time. Thus leading to the local arms race all over again.

Alligator tears fella. This is the nature of competition. When you enter a contest don't be surprised when your adversaries use whatever means at their disposal to win. Either improve yourself, find a better spear or surrender...complaints are for losers.

 

[skizzian]

Alligator tears fella. This is the nature of competition. When you enter a contest don't be surprised when your adversaries us whatever means at their disposal to win. Either improve yourself, find a better spear or surrender...complaints are for losers.

you sound fun

 

[Tumid1]

you sound fun

Just keepin' it real

 

[skizzian]

Just keepin' it real

'real' ?
you make chasing Strava times sound like a Spartan preparing for War

 

[patdam]

Alligator tears fella. This is the nature of competition. When you enter a contest don't be surprised when your adversaries use whatever means at their disposal to win. Either improve yourself, find a better spear or surrender...complaints are for losers.

Or those who estimate that they have nothing more to prove (to themself) and they don't played. i don't really understand those who needs to play on strava with an e-bike. Or the older guy with physical decreasing (the two are the worst :eek : ). For my opinion, they have missed something in their life .

 

[Tumid1]

'real' ?
you make chasing Strava times sound like a Spartan preparing for War

And you sound like someone who doesn't understand what KOM stands for. Go back to your needlepoint.

 

[Tumid1]

Or those who estimate that they have nothing more to prove (to themself) and they don't played. i don't really understand those who needs to play on strava with an e-bike. Or the older guy with physical decreasing (the two are the worst :eek : ). For my opinion, they have missed something in their life .

What is it about people thinking they have the right to judge what brings pleasure to others ? You don't understand..obviously, so why analyze other people's motivation?
You don't participate, your choice, but that doesn't give you the right to cast aspersions as to the fullness of other's lives.

Perhaps it is you that is the one missing something in your life that compels you to judge others.

 

[patdam]

What is it about people thinking they have the right to judge what brings pleasure to others ? You don't understand..obviously, so why analyze other people's motivation?
You don't participate, your choice, but that doesn't give you the right to cast aspersions as to the fullness of other's lives.

Perhaps it is you that is the one missing something in your life that compels you to judge others.

What is it about people thinking they have the right to judge what brings pleasure to others ? You don't understand..obviously, so why analyze other people's motivation?
You don't participate, your choice, but that doesn't give you the right to cast aspersions as to the fullness of other's lives.

Perhaps it is you that is the one missing something in your life that compels you to judge others.

You think that those don't share you opinion haven't the right to speak ?
Sorry guy, for my opinion those take high value of strava result, They are frustrated with their lives. I want to say it, and I’m saying it. for me, the only valid sporting results are those achieved in official championships. The rest is just wanking off for losers who want to show off.

 

[Suns_PSD]

These new e-bikes have a lot of power. I can climb the steep things in Turbo, but it's a bit sketchy for several reasons.

The only e-bike that I could imagine that could actually utilize Avinox levels of power on a steep technical climb would be the E-Druid, because of the longer chainstays. Even when I do all of the things, I'm just one ledge away from getting into a massive uncontrolled wheelie in a spot where I can't let off. The power is perfectly smooth and I pedal softly when needed, but it's just so much power.

 

[Plummet]

Part of the issue is the arms race at a local level. I have been competing with the same guys for KOMs on Strava for 15years, first on regular MTBs then on ebikes. Until recently whether you were on a Bosch, Shimano or Yamaha, it didn't really affect anything on the downhills (different story uphill, but gaps were not that crazy). Now a friend that is statistically as fast as me bought a shuttle ampd, and has smashed every single KOM in the area by an unmatchable margin for those without an M2S.

So even though I'm pretty sure I would rarely use more than 800w/100Nm to get better range, I would certainly put the boost mode on here and there trying to set a good time. Thus leading to the local arms race all over again.

Yeah, the arms race has ruined racing and strava koms and just general mated goofing around racing and challenging each other.

I too preferred in when all the full power motors were at a similar power. Its kinda less fun now.

 

[Powerslider]

Imagine someone in a bike shop considering two similarly priced and equipped bikes, except one has more power. Not many are picking less powerful option; especially the less experienced and knowledgeable consumer. It’s that simple.

 

[skizzian]

And you sound like someone who doesn't understand what KOM stands for. Go back to your needlepoint.

I wish you well in your journey to becoming King of the mountain; may your 800% assistance War Horse provide a steady mount for your broadsword.

 

[NATUXE]

Imaginez un client dans un magasin de vélos hésitant entre deux vélos de prix et d'équipement similaires, à ceci près que l'un est plus puissant. Rares sont ceux qui choisissent le modèle le moins puissant, surtout les consommateurs les moins expérimentés et les moins informés. C'est aussi simple que cela.

Laisser les gens libre d'acheter ce qui leur plait et ce qu'il ont besoin en fonction de l'âge de la santé etc. Si tu est jeune en bonne forme d'emmerde pas prend un musculaire si tu est moins bon prend un 85 nm et si rien ne va prend un 150nm. La liberté de chacun c'est ce qui compte