Where to start with emtb?

[crembz]

I'm thinking about getting an emtb, mainly to be able to squeeze more KMs into my weekday riding routine.

I enjoy playful bikes that encourage you to pop off all the trail features. I typically other lighter shorter travel bikes. Currently on an evil calling and a Revel Ranger.

Looking at emtbs and comparing geos they all seem absolutely huge and unwieldy. Chainstays are seem huge, travel super long.

My question is how does a noob go about picking out an emtb when they know what sort of regular MTB they like.

I was looking at something like the yt decoy shred. I'm 165cm and usually ride a small. The reviews suggest it is playful but looking at the geo it seems the complete opposite.

 

[Zimmerframe]

If you're just trying to squeeze more in but don't want to go full "tank" .. you'd probably want to look at the lightweight bikes like Levo SL, maybe Kenevo SL (though it's not really a poppy type trail bike), Orbea Rise, Forestal Syrion/Cyon (though early days for them). Or maybe something like the new Transalpes E1 - though no idea if they'll be available in upside down land. Also things like e-zesty's.

Any other lightweight bikes coming?

Since it seems Orbea have now started providing more buyers with the Rise, it got me wondering if there's any other lightweight eMTB's on the horizon.....and what is currently available? Orbea Rise Levo SL Lapierre eZesty Forestal..?

www.emtbforums.com

 

[crembz]

Thanks for pointing that out. The Orbea and Lapierre look promising.

When you say full tank, that means range yeah? What sort of range can one expect with these?

 

[Zimmerframe]

Range will depend on your weight, how you ride, the type of trails you ride and elevation you expect to gain. Then also how you configure the motor - ie what degree of assistance.

The Orbea with the de-tuned Shimano EP8 motor seems to get better than expected range/altitude - there's a few threads on this.

Not 100% sure on the E-zesty, there was a recent update which let you customise things more I believe. @flash is pretty knowledgeable on that one with regards to real world performance.

 

[crembz]

Interesting, some of them are barely heavier than some enduro bikes. I'm guessing though ideal they'd still be useable if the battery drained part way through a ride. No idea on availability I'll need to look that up.

If going full tank, are any of the options poppy and playful?

 

[flash]

If going full tank, are any of the options poppy and playful?

Have a look at a Merida e140. A full power bike with short chainstays and moderate suspension numbers. The bigger brother (e160) is probably Australia's most popular eBike. I have an e160 and see many more every weekend. It's a big bike but a hoot to ride.. Small frames are limited to a smaller battery but that also means a lighter bike. You could go crazy and look for a Levo. Adjustable Geo and all the bells and whistles at an enormous price. I may have accidentally ordered one last week......

In half power bikes the range king is the Specalized Levo SL. And then the Orbea Rise. My eZesty has a smaller battery, more power and beefier components (so less range), but I think it's a better ride (you can also remove the battery and drive unit from an eZesty and ride it like a normal bike) than the SL. But eZestys are super rare in Oz and there's no small size due to the motor/battery design. Special order only.

The Orbea Rise is a bike I'd really love to have a ride on, although I'd probably not go for the weight weenie build, personally. Possibly the best light eBike on the market, for now. Probably what I'd suggest you looks for.

Stock is a real issue for most bikes in Oz at the moment. If you find a bike you like don't think it'll still be there next week. Some orders take 6 months.

It'll help if you don't try to replicate your acoustic bikes in an eBike. Even the half power bikes ride differently. Not better. Not worse. just differently. Acoustic, classical and electric guitars don't sound the same but there's a place for all of them. Same here.

Gordon

 

[crembz]

Have a look at a Merida e140. A full power bike with short chainstays and moderate suspension numbers. The bigger brother (e160) is probably Australia's most popular eBike. I have an e160 and see many more every weekend. It's a big bike but a hoot to ride.. Small frames are limited to a smaller battery but that also means a lighter bike. You could go crazy and look for a Levo. Adjustable Geo and all the bells and whistles at an enormous price. I may have accidentally ordered one last week......

In half power bikes the range king is the Specalized Levo SL. And then the Orbea Rise. My eZesty has a smaller battery, more power and beefier components (so less range), but I think it's a better ride (you can also remove the battery and drive unit from an eZesty and ride it like a normal bike) than the SL. But eZestys are super rare in Oz and there's no small size due to the motor/battery design. Special order only.

The Orbea Rise is a bike I'd really love to have a ride on, although I'd probably not go for the weight weenie build, personally. Possibly the best light eBike on the market, for now. Probably what I'd suggest you looks for.

Stock is a real issue for most bikes in Oz at the moment. If you find a bike you like don't think it'll still be there next week. Some orders take 6 months.

It'll help if you don't try to replicate your acoustic bikes in an eBike. Even the half power bikes ride differently. Not better. Not worse. just differently. Acoustic, classical and electric guitars don't sound the same but there's a place for all of them. Same here.

Gordon

Thanks for that ... the ezesty looks perfect but too big for me in the smallest size ... a 430mm seat tube would not let me run much longer than a 100mm dropper. I aim for around 400mm max. I started looking at the yt decoy shred because I really like mullet setups, a 29er rear makes clearance at my height an issue.

The Orbea really has my attention ... sounds like the perfect option apart from the ezesty. Chainstays seem a little long to me coming from 405 & 430mm chainstays. I looked at the levo and I'm not convinced the reach is where I want it to be. For reference my Ranger has a 430mm reach in a small and the Evil a 425mm reach. 415 on the levo seems a little conservative.

At my height it's always a battle between reach and seat tube length. The canyon spectraln for example is a non-starter @430mm in a small, the merida and yt means a 420mm seat tube (can't run a 150mm dropper) to get a decent reach.

I'm comparing all the geos to what I know of unpowered bikes. I still don't think I have an appreciation of how this all changes in the ebike world. I really like to better understand what you mean when you say they "ride differently". How would you describe the differences I should expect between the two?

 

[flash]

Thanks for that ... the ezesty looks perfect but too big for me in the smallest size ... a 430mm seat tube would not let me run much longer than a 100mm dropper. I aim for around 400mm max. I started looking at the yt decoy shred because I really like mullet setups, a 29er rear makes clearance at my height an issue.

The Orbea really has my attention ... sounds like the perfect option apart from the ezesty. Chainstays seem a little long to me coming from 405 & 430mm chainstays. I looked at the levo and I'm not convinced the reach is where I want it to be. For reference my Ranger has a 430mm reach in a small and the Evil a 425mm reach. 415 on the levo seems a little conservative.

At my height it's always a battle between reach and seat tube length. The canyon spectraln for example is a non-starter @430mm in a small, the merida and yt means a 420mm seat tube (can't run a 150mm dropper) to get a decent reach.

I'm comparing all the geos to what I know of unpowered bikes. I still don't think I have an appreciation of how this all changes in the ebike world. I really like to better understand what you mean when you say they "ride differently". How would you describe the differences I should expect between the two?

A S2 Levo has 430mm reach and takes a 150mm dropper. That's the full powered version. Plus changeable geometry with an included headset angle set cup and variable chainstays. 22kg.

A few big differences with an EMTB. Obviously weight is the first. that affects how the bike rides, enormously. It is FAR more stable. It blasts through chunder that would send a lighter bike all over the place. More stable in the air too, although I'm not a jumper, so I'm quoting others on that one. It's more of an all body workout when you point it downward. you can do the same stuff but it might take more physical effort. Uphill is of course much easier. You don't redline going up the hill which means more energy at the top.

Secondly there's not as much penalty for more suspension. The pedaling inefficiency often seen with longer travel is moot when you have a motor doing a lot of the work. I am NOT saying you shouldn't ride shorter suspension, just that a longer slacker bike doesn't have to be a pig when pointing up a hill.

Lastly there's uphill flow. Uphill becomes a technical challenge not a physical one. You come into corners faster. It make uphill as fun as the downhill rather than just being about the fastest way to the top of the hill. Clearing an uphill section becomes a fun challenge. I'll never be really good but you can go as far as basically riding uphill like a trials rider. Google Chris Akrigg.

Gordon

 

[Gary]

any of the options poppy and playful?

Pretty much any bike can be set-up to ride more poppy and playful by setting up tyres, suspension and control points appropriately. eg. harder, faster rolling compound tyres with lighter casings run at higher pressures. Suspension set up stiff(er) and with slightly fast(er) rebound
if it's a properly playful bike you want then I'd also look at sizing. A shorter reach frame and 27.5" wheels are far more nimble than a long reach frame with 29" wheels

 

[crembz]

Pretty much any bike can be set-up to ride more poppy and playful by setting up tyres, suspension and control points appropriately. eg. harder, faster rolling compound tyres with lighter casings run at higher pressures. Suspension set up stiff(er) and with slightly fast(er) rebound
if it's a properly playful bike you want then I'd also look at sizing. A shorter reach frame and 27.5" wheels are far more nimble than a long reach frame with 29" wheels

I understand. I'm looking closely at the sizing alongside the geo. My current favorite play bike is in fact a 27.5" w/423mm reach in a small size, 430mm chainstays. The only thing I wish it had is a 29er front. That's what got me looking into the yt decoy shred to begin with.

However I'm concerned that at 410mm reach it will feel cramped. I thought maybe I could drop the fork to 160mm and run it in the high setting to edge it closer to 420mm. I'd like to avoid a longer stem than the stock 50mm to compensate for the short reach. The alternate would be move to a medium at 430mm reach but then I might run into issues with the seat tube length and I'd probably need to drop to a 35mm stem. My 150mmm AXS reverb is going to struggle fit at my saddle height. I'm having a hard time deciding on which way to go.

Does reach/stack play differently with emtbs since you have the added weight to provide the stability?

The Orbea is unlikely to be available where I live in my size unless I opt for the Team spec model, but seems to be a better geo.

 

[Gary]

I understand. I'm looking closely at the sizing alongside the geo. My current favorite play bike is in fact a 27.5" w/423mm reach in a small size, 430mm chainstays. The only thing I wish it had is a 29er front.

You're not actually making a lot of sense here.
I assume you're talking about the Evil. The suspension design of those doesn't actually make for very playful bikes and adding a 29" front wheel to one would only reduce it's playfulness. Especially for a rider of your height so I'd get that idea right out of your head if playfulness is really what you're after. This is Partly because a 29" wheel is inherently LESS nimble and partly because short reach just doesn't work so well with a 29" front wheel out front.
Your Ranger isn't a particularly playful bike either. it's nimbleness comes mainly from it's overall lightweight and short travel and you won't get that with ANY full power emtb. They're all super heavy in comparison.
You seem a little hung up on chainstay length too. Chainstay length affects how easily a bike will pivot onto the rear wheel and flick around. But so does bar height, stem length, reach, BB height and overall wheelbase.
Depending on rider height and the bike's front centre super short chainstays lose stability and aren't always so great on an Emtb. eg. losing traction easier on climbs. Stay below 445mm and they'll have the stability without being too difficult to pivot off (so long as the reach isn't too long to overcome)

Can you elabotate on what you actually mean by wanting an Ebike with a lot of playfulness and pop?
Playfulness to me would mean whips, tables, manuals and hops etc. and faster direction change and neither of your current bikes would be anywhere near my ideal choice for that.
And I said earlier, any bike will be capable of decent pop if set up for it. This is almost always to the detriment of other handling traits though. namely grip and stability in rough, loose, low grip or sketchy terrain.

You've given your height but not what you weigh, your riding background/ability or how strong you are. These will make a massive difference too.

 

[crembz]

You're not actually making a lot of sense here.
I assume you're talking about the Evil. The suspension design of those doesn't actually make for very playful bikes and adding a 29" front wheel to one would only reduce it's playfulness. Especially for a rider of your height so I'd get that idea right out of your head if playfulness is really what you're after. This is Partly because a 29" wheel is inherently LESS nimble and partly because short reach just doesn't work so well with a 29" front wheel out front.
Your Ranger isn't a particularly playful bike either. it's nimbleness comes mainly from it's overall lightweight and short travel and you won't get that with ANY full power emtb. They're all super heavy in comparison.
You seem a little hung up on chainstay length too. Chainstay length affects how easily a bike will pivot onto the rear wheel and flick around. But so does bar height, stem length, reach, BB height and overall wheelbase.
Depending on rider height and the bike's front centre super short chainstays lose stability and aren't always so great on an Emtb. eg. losing traction easier on climbs. Stay below 445mm and they'll have the stability without being too difficult to pivot off (so long as the reach isn't too long to overcome)

Can you elabotate on what you actually mean by wanting an Ebike with a lot of playfulness and pop?
Playfulness to me would mean whips, tables, manuals and hops etc. and faster direction change and neither of your current bikes would be anywhere near my ideal choice for that.
And I said earlier, any bike will be capable of decent pop if set up for it. This is almost always to the detriment of other handling traits though. namely grip and stability in rough, loose, low grip or sketchy terrain.

You've given your height but not what you weigh, your riding background/ability or how strong you are. These will make a massive difference too.

Appreciate your brevity, I'm always happy to be schooled.

Starting from the bottom, I'm about 84kg and I'd say an intermediate rider. small - moderate drops & jumps (1-2m), better at descending than climbing and not great at technical climbs. Using strava leaderboards as a yardstick (I mainly ride solo) I'm generally in the top 20% descending but bottom 25% on climbs. I grew up on BMX jumping gutters and homemade ramps and fooling around on the streets but never really did much skate park stuff.

I probably spent 25 years off the bike until getting back on a mtb about 4 years ago, Norco Charger. I hated it. Front heavy, felt stretched out, challenging to manual and lift the bike, better at wheels on the ground type of riding as opposed to getting airborne. I bought a Nukeproof scout 275 and the first time getting on that I felt much more at home, more upright, easier to lift and fool around on, and much more stable when pointed down. Since then I've rotated through a few bikes:

Spec Enduro 29 - did not enjoy
Banshee Phantom v2 - loved riding that bike
Pipedream Moxie mx3 - too long in the front imo
Ride farr ATB - Used for gravel riding
Dartmoor Hornet - felt a little cramped
Ibis DV9 - fast but was just was not fun
Evil the calling
Revel Ranger

Relative to a BMX none of these are going to be 'playful' I understand the compromise that needs to be made for the gains in stability and ability to soak up the rough. So I suppose when I say playful, it's more of a relative opinion of a bike characteristics ... e.g. playful for a trail bike.

Like you've pointed out, I generally setup my bikes a little firmer with less rebound than the general guidelines to help the bike 'feel alive'.

When I say playful, I mean a bike that excels at and encourages you to use up all the small features on a trail, as opposed to charging over everything in front of you. Taking advantage of any little rollers to pop and lift the bike, getting air wherever possible ... I don't appreciate a bike that you need to fight at lower speeds, think tight rooty/rocky switchbacks and that feels more at home steamrolling all but the largest features.

So I suppose I want something to assist the bits I struggle at (climbing in general) whilst maintaining that playfullness I described. If I sound confused it's because I am hahaha. I hope that helps understand what I'm chasing.

 

[Gary]

Thanks. That does help quite a bit.

When I say playful, I mean a bike that excels at and encourages you to use up all the small features on a trail, as opposed to charging over everything in front of you. Taking advantage of any little rollers to pop and lift the bike, getting air wherever possible ...

Pretty much any FS Emtb will do this. but the timing and preload required is different to a normal bike and will take a little time to adapt to.

I don't appreciate a bike that you need to fight at lower speeds, think tight rooty/rocky switchbacks and that feels more at home steamrolling all but the largest features.

The extra weight of an Emtb and it's low central placement makes them very stable at low and high speed, up or down. Rocky rooty, loose, slippy, wet switchbacks and tight steep turns with drops/steps are really common here and an Emtb will reward good line choice with extra stability. But the flipside of this is always going to mean it's more work to correct bad line choice and mistakes. but that extra stability and momentum can also help bail you out of a poor line choice.

I think it's time you test rode a few bikes. at your height it's going to be quite easy to buy something that on paper sounds ideal but in reality may be a little awkward for you to ride more technical terrain on.

 

[crembz]

I think it's time you test rode a few bikes. at your height it's going to be quite easy to buy something that on paper sounds ideal but in reality may be a little awkward for you to ride more technical terrain on.

Thanks for that ... I agree, I would love to attend demo days etc to get a leg over a few different models. Unfortunately where I live, demo days are non-existent and trying to find a small framed bike in an lbs is close to impossible even pre-covid. Availability with the covid shortages means annual allocations of bikes are sold out before they even hit the stores Orbea for example are only bringing 4 small frames into the country for the next 12 months ... 4! And they're all been sold already.

Trek don't even import certain models at all. Merida and Norco seem the best supplied of the in store brands but even they are difficult to find small sizes. Direct to consumer brands seem to be faring better but like you said, buying on paper doesn't mean it'll work out the way I imagine ... thus why I'm scrutinising and trying to understand as much information as I can find online.

The alternative is do nothing, but I'm really keen to extend my range of riding and improve on the things that are holding me back.

 

[Gary]

Yeah. I know about the bike/supply/shortage issues all too well. I didn't just mean demo bikes.
Try to find Emtb riders in your area who will let you try theirs, it doesn't actually matter if they're not the correct size for you to get a feel of what I've been talking about and to get your head round the differences from a normal bike. It should also become clear fairly quickly the importance of not buying a bike which is too big. and why. And I'm not talking about standover, dropper insertion/extension height or rear tyre buzz. I mean the difference in maneuverability and nimbleness between smaller and larger Eebs.
For this very reason. Despite being a full 16cm taller than you I ride a 27.5 emtb with just 435mm reach