What's the consensus best DIY frame right now?

Hi All, I'm also orienting on a DIY e-bike for early next year. When looking at several options from Dengfu and LightCarbon I also came across the following frames that seem to have a bit more modern geometry. What do you guys think?

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Or
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Allthough they look like nice modern geometry they are a bit over biked for me in terms of travel. I'm looking more for a Down Country / Trail 120 - 130 mm spec. I'm also deciding between the M510 or M820 system, need to wait for the first reviews of the M820 motor.
 
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This one looks nice, but BB hight at 327mm is incredibly low for 160mm travel. At full compression the remaining ground clearance is only 167mm. So a very short crank length is mandatory…

67B02A5C-9368-4467-914E-44833386CFA4.png
 
It's good that there is so much competition in the market. We will have a choice of good frames. As a last resort, you can install a 27.5 rear wheel and a 140mm fork on this frame. Then we will get up to 327mm carriage. And not such a sharp steering angle.

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Bluicie said:
Allthough they look like nice modern geometry they are a bit over biked for me in terms of travel. I'm looking more for a Down Country / Trail 120 - 130 mm spec.
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IMO there's no real benefit of reducing the travel on EMTB. For regular MTBs it's different as you reduce wait and also gain pedal efficiency, so sometimes less is more. But the whole beauty of EMTB that you can have a longer travel bike and ride it everywhere without feeling sluggish! Also the weight saving of going from 160mm to 130mm is marginal on the scale of EMTB. Your let's say 800g saved in lighter suspension will not matter. And longer travel forks are also burlier which is especially and advantage for EMTB due to increased weight and higher riding speeds.
 
TeoElFeo said:
IMO there's no real benefit of reducing the travel on EMTB. For regular MTBs it's different as you reduce wait and also gain pedal efficiency, so sometimes less is more. But the whole beauty of EMTB that you can have a longer travel bike and ride it everywhere without feeling sluggish! Also the weight saving of going from 160mm to 130mm is marginal on the scale of EMTB. Your let's say 800g saved in lighter suspension will not matter. And longer travel forks are also burlier which is especially and advantage for EMTB due to increased weight and higher riding speeds.
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The E10 frame is very strong and heavy 4300g. It is very suitable for M600, M510 with a stroke of more than 160mm. Will manufacturers be able to make a strong frame weighing 2400g for the M810 motor with a stroke of more than 160mm? Soon we will find out if the new frames will be as strong as the E10 and light at the same time. I am ready to buy a new lightweight frame and drive not very fast and aggressive. 120-140mm stroke is enough for this style of driving.
 
LAnton said:
The E10 frame is very strong and heavy 4300g. It is very suitable for M600, M510 with a stroke of more than 160mm. Will manufacturers be able to make a strong frame weighing 2400g for the M810 motor with a stroke of more than 160mm? Soon we will find out if the new frames will be as strong as the E10 and light at the same time. I am ready to buy a new lightweight frame and drive not very fast and aggressive. 120-140mm stroke is enough for this style of driving.
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It's that i wanted to build with the LCES1075. Goal reached, it's more funny than E10 for sure, but i will not take it to ride in moutain on breaking tracks. The difference are mostly due to frame dimensions (reach/angle/wheel base) than weight win. On riding i don't feel the 5 kg less. and i don't see interest to reduce suspension travel to 120 rather than 150 for reduce 1 kg more. It's needed to know all the characteristics before to focus on weight.
Example, the frame less weight are also due to lower size bearings. On bases axies they are replaced by igus bushings.
 
Mabman said:
Frame/drive kits could be extremely popular going forward as many already have all the other bits hanging on their other bikes or have such preferences that no matter what a manufacturer hangs on a bike it will be off and replaced before it even leaves the shop.































































































































































































































































While the DengFu bikes come closer to any previous Asian attempts at the serious eMTB market as alluded to the concept of "modern" geometry, that changes constantly it seems, is always going to be a few years behind the innovators driving it forward.































































































































































































































































Chris @ VMG realized this several years ago and set out to rectify the situation. He contracted a carbon manufacturer to build a similar frame to the E10/Light Carbon frames but must have paid the mould cost of around 5k and ordered enough frames to entice the manufacturer into production.































































































































































































































































Bottom line is that just about

Frame/drive kits could be extremely popular going forward as many already have all the other bits hanging on their other bikes or have such preferences that no matter what a manufacturer hangs on a bike it will be off and replaced before it even leaves the shop.



While the DengFu bikes come closer to any previous Asian attempts at the serious eMTB market as alluded to the concept of "modern" geometry, that changes constantly it seems, is always going to be a few years behind the innovators driving it forward.



Chris @ VMG realized this several years ago and set out to rectify the situation. He contracted a carbon manufacturer to build a similar frame to the E10/Light Carbon frames but must have paid the mould cost of around 5k and ordered enough frames to entice the manufacturer into production.



Bottom line
Mabman said:
Frame/drive kits could be extremely popular going forward as many already have all the other bits hanging on their other bikes or have such preferences that no matter what a manufacturer hangs on a bike it will be off and replaced before it even leaves the shop.

While the DengFu bikes come closer to any previous Asian attempts at the serious eMTB market as alluded to the concept of "modern" geometry, that changes constantly it seems, is always going to be a few years behind the innovators driving it forward.

Chris @ VMG realized this several years ago and set out to rectify the situation. He contracted a carbon manufacturer to build a similar frame to the E10/Light Carbon frames but must have paid the mould cost of around 5k and ordered enough frames to entice the manufacturer into production.

Bottom line is that just about anyone could do the same thing and perhaps more will as time goes on. So my question is what would make the best DIY kit, including drive/battery? If you think about it the plethora of options, and more being revealed constantly it seems, makes it almost impossible to please everyone but perhaps enough market segment to make it a worthwhile venture?
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is that just about anyone could do the same thing and perhaps more will as time goes on. So my question is what would make the best DIY kit, including drive/battery? If you think about it the plethora of options, and more being revealed constantly it seems, makes it almost impossible to please everyone but perhaps enough market segment to make it a worthwhile venture?



anyone could do the same thing and perhaps more will as time goes on. So my question is what would make the best DIY kit, including drive/battery? If you think abou it the plethora of options, and more being revealed constantly it seems, makes it almost impossible to please everyone but perhaps enough market segment to make it a worthwhile venture?
Click to expand...

Mabman said:
Frame/drive kits could be extremely popular going forward as many already have all the other bits hanging on their other bikes or have such preferences that no matter what a manufacturer hangs on a bike it will be off and replaced before it even leaves the shop.

While the DengFu bikes come closer to any previous Asian attempts at the serious eMTB market as alluded to the concept of "modern" geometry, that changes constantly it seems, is always going to be a few years behind the innovators driving it forward.

Chris @ VMG realized this several years ago and set out to rectify the situation. He contracted a carbon manufacturer to build a similar frame to the E10/Light Carbon frames but must have paid the mould cost of around 5k and ordered enough frames to entice the manufacturer into production.

Bottom line is that just about anyone could do the same thing and perhaps more will as time goes on. So my question is what would make the best DIY kit, including drive/battery? If you think about it the plethora of options, and more being revealed constantly it seems, makes it almost impossible to please everyone but perhaps enough market segment to make it a worthwhile venture?
Click to expand...
Lots of great discussion going on here, and great to see we (VMG)get mentioned. I'm not going to discuss geometry as everyone has their own preferences, other than to say there's a lot more to it than just quoting numbers, and the proof is in the riding.

I do have to disagree with the statement that anyone could develop a frame and bring it to market. Prior to this project, we'd already been designing and manufacturing composite sports equipment, worked with many business partners and been in the Tech industry for 30 years. Without that experience, we would have had no chance at getting a finished product to market. There are far more challenges and money involved than you imagine. We haven't simply just asked a factory to modify a design for us, we developed our own geometry numbers, and kinematics to build an Enduro style EMTB. Firstly you have to find a very good factory that will take on this project, and then you can't just ask a factory to take an existing design and ask them to change 1 or 2 geometry numbers, it doesn't work like that. Change one measurement or angle and almost every other number has to change.

The challenge of the whole motor and battery package needs to be solved. We have been working very closely with Bafang developing the tune on the M510, I'm sure Bafang are sick of hearing from us, but right now the M510 we are running is so far in advance of what's generally available, you wouldn't believe it's the same motor.

Apologies, before anyone asks, we won't share the firmware files, because the amount of time and money and stress that has gone into developing the motor and the entire project is enormous.

And then do all of this during a 3 year Global pandemic, while trying to source components to build complete bikes......I must be crazy.
 
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VMG Chris said:
Lots of great discussion going on here, and great to see we (VMG)get mentioned. I'm not going to discuss geometry as everyone has their own preferences, other than to say there's a lot more to it than just quoting numbers, and the proof is in the riding.

I do have to disagree with the statement that anyone could develop a frame and bring it to market. Prior to this project, we'd already been designing and manufacturing composite sports equipment, worked with many business partners and been in the Tech industry for 30 years. Without that experience, we would have had no chance at getting a finished product to market. There are far more challenges and money involved than you imagine. We haven't simply just asked a factory to modify a design for us, we developed our own geometry numbers, and kinematics to build an Enduro style EMTB. Firstly you have to find a very good factory that will take on this project, and then you can't just ask a factory to take an existing design and ask them to change 1 or 2 geometry numbers, it doesn't work like that. Change one measurement or angle and almost every other number has to change.

The challenge of the whole motor and battery package needs to be solved. We have been working very closely with Bafang developing the tune on the M510, I'm sure Bafang are sick of hearing from us, but right now the M510 we are running is so far in advance of what's generally available, you wouldn't believe it's the same motor.

And before anyone asks, we will not share the firmware files, because the amount of time and money and stress that has gone into developing the motor and the entire project is enormous.

And then do all of this during a 3 year Global pandemic, while trying to source components to build complete bikes......I must be crazy.
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It's a pity that you won't share the firmware.
 
What is unfortunate, is that bafang despice the DIY builders. They are only this customers who provide visibility to their brand in europe and they refuse to provide updating of their defective software as those provided with the M510.

We can't reproach at one dealer who invest to perform developing of their product, to loose the advantage win by her work, to the profit of the manufacturer who made him pay this job.
 
VMG Chris, aren’t you doing yourself a disservice by not releasing your version of the M510’s firmware ? If the only experience of the engine here in Euro land is with the standard engine and that’s not got a great reputation, then you aren’t going to sell many bikes over here regardless of your bragging how good your version is. Getting a few paid Pros extolling it’s virtues on YouTube will never be the same as mass approval when it comes to motors.

On the other hand if it’s being used here, every one says how great an engine it is, it’s reliability is good, the firmware sorted then if your frame is good, you may well stand a chance of breaking into the market.
 
Waynemarlow said:
VMG Chris, aren’t you doing yourself a disservice by not releasing your version of the M510’s firmware ? If the only experience of the engine here in Euro land is with the standard engine and that’s not got a great reputation, then you aren’t going to sell many bikes over here regardless of your bragging how good your version is. Getting a few paid Pros extolling it’s virtues on YouTube will never be the same as mass approval when it comes to motors.

On the other hand if it’s being used here, every one says how great an engine it is, it’s reliability is good, the firmware sorted then if your frame is good, you may well stand a chance of breaking into the market.
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I see your point of view, but don't worry, I don't think it will be long before Bafang does release a version of the firmware with all of the fixes which we (VMG) have pushed them so hard to get done.

It wouldn't surprise me if other brands already have similar firmware to VMG.

In the meantime after many many months of working almost every day and communicating with Bafang, I think our customers should benefit first from the improvements we've been able to have developed on our firmware.
 
VMG Chris said:
It wouldn't surprise me if other brands already have similar firmware to VMG.
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So why not release the firmware to a few of those who have also done a lot of the heavy lifting of developing this motor to test to see if genuinely you have raised the bar ? Until that happens we can only think that perhaps you actually haven’t and your version is no different than some of the later versions we here know so well.

There is a term in the technical world called “vapourware”, from experience not all the greatness a brand portrays is always confirmed on the actual play ground.
 
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Evidently it was on the Bafang stand at the exhibition. Looks right though, almost a EZesty clone with a more normal engine setup.
 
TeoElFeo said:
IMO there's no real benefit of reducing the travel on EMTB. For regular MTBs it's different as you reduce wait and also gain pedal efficiency, so sometimes less is more. But the whole beauty of EMTB that you can have a longer travel bike and ride it everywhere without feeling sluggish! Also the weight saving of going from 160mm to 130mm is marginal on the scale of EMTB. Your let's say 800g saved in lighter suspension will not matter. And longer travel forks are also burlier which is especially and advantage for EMTB due to increased weight and higher riding speeds.
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Where I live there isn't much elevation and mostly flowy single-track. Therefor I do not need that much travel. Also when l think about it, I think my ideal bike is a mid to low travel "lightweight" M820 powered machine because of what I normally ride. But of course it also depends on reviews from others, a good deal somewhere, or what I just think looks nice 😇
 
Встречайте, новый, легкий карбоновый велосипед с мотором м820. Раму и мотор я получу в конце января. По моим расчетам вес нового велосипеда будет от 16500-18000 гр. В зависимости от уровня комплектующих.

1.jpg 2.jpg 000002.jpg Fr.jpg
 
LAnton said:
Встречайте, новый, легкий карбоновый велосипед с мотором м820. Раму и мотор я получу в конце января. По моим расчетам вес нового велосипеда будет от 16500-18000 гр. В зависимости от уровня комплектующих.

View attachment 103123 View attachment 103124 View attachment 103125 View attachment 103126
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Meet the new, lightweight carbon bike with the m820 motor. I will receive the frame and motor at the end of January. According to my calculations, the weight of the new bike will be from 16500-18000 gr. Depending on the level of components.
 
Waynemarlow said:
Meet the new, lightweight carbon bike with the m820 motor. I will receive the frame and motor at the end of January. According to my calculations, the weight of the new bike will be from 16500-18000 gr. Depending on the level of components.
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Thank you, I forgot to translate
 
patdam said:
who build this frame ?
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Check out this product on Alibaba App China Wholesale E-bike MTB Carbon Fully Frame with Bafang F014 Battery and bafang M820 engine

m.alibaba.com

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That’s the frame
 

2023 New Arrivals High Quality E-mtb Bicycle 29er Bafang Motor M510 Carbon Frame Lightweight Electric Mountain Bike Carbon Frame - Buy E-mtb Bicycle 29er Full Carbon Frame,19'' Electric Mountain Bike Carbon Frame,E-mtb Bicycle Carbon Frame Product on

2023 New Arrivals High Quality E-mtb Bicycle 29er Bafang Motor M510 Carbon Frame Lightweight Electric Mountain Bike Carbon Frame - Buy E-mtb Bicycle 29er Full Carbon Frame,19'' Electric Mountain Bike Carbon Frame,E-mtb Bicycle Carbon Frame Product on Alibaba.com
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patdam said:
who build this frame ?
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I ordered from Jean wang. I liked it very much.
 
The frame looks great! Do You need to order the frame specific to the battery size? Or can You run both batteries with it? What is this ZS BT 740 battery, do You know the producer / any specifications?
 
Guys you know this frame manufacturer?Or they are buying from someone else??
 
stuff said:
Check out this product on Alibaba App China Wholesale E-bike MTB Carbon Fully Frame with Bafang F014 Battery and bafang M820 engine

m.alibaba.com

Custom Logo China Wholesale E-bike Mtb Carbon Fully Frame For Bafang F014 Battery And Bafang M820 Engine - Buy E-bike Mtb Carbon Fully Frame china Wholesale E-bike Mtb Carbon Fully Frame e-bike Mtb Carbon Fully Frame With Bafang F014 Battery And M820

Custom Logo China Wholesale E-bike Mtb Carbon Fully Frame For Bafang F014 Battery And Bafang M820 Engine - Buy E-bike Mtb Carbon Fully Frame china Wholesale E-bike Mtb Carbon Fully Frame e-bike Mtb Carbon Fully Frame With Bafang F014 Battery And M820 Engine Product on Alibaba.com
m.alibaba.com m.alibaba.com

That’s the frame
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ok thanks, minimum order 2 frame
 
thaeber said:
The frame looks great! Do You need to order the frame specific to the battery size? Or can You run both batteries with it? What is this ZS BT 740 battery, do You know the producer / any specifications?
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I will not install the battery, but I ordered it so that I have a set of buttons and wires. I will make myself two light batteries of 1500g each. I will install the battery in a triangular bag. This way I will have a removable battery and a lighter bike -1000gr for the case and battery mount. The housing for the 420 and 740W batteries should be the same.
 
Hmmm..but they are referring to a Bafang Battery BT F014 which is speced on Bafang Workbook, and a completely unknown Battery type ZS BT 740. No info on that available…
 
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