The frame is cracked. Denied warranty.

[Mikerb]

I admit to finding this thread a bit confusing!! Without trying to second guess the root cause of the OPs experience my first observation is the pretty awful state of the bearing cups on both headests shown in the thread.

Personally I would never buy a carbon framed bike but for those happy to do so it is worth noting that the most susceptable part of the frame is the headest......more especially if, for whatever reason the headset assembly is, or becomes, loose. The stress forces on the headtube area are significant.

I really cannot see how a bike shop or even a reasonably competent home mechanic can mess up a fork change, especially if all the original headset elements are merely re used.

A headset can become loose, especially shortly after assembly, and need re a djusting. This is typically caused by grease getting displaced during use but can also be due to some settlement of bearings themselves......or later on a bit of bearing wear.
I also do not agree with headset cap "torque specs". The idea is to remove all vertical play between bearings and cups without causing any binding of the bearings. How much torque on the top cap that requires depends to some degree whether the top cap bolt is greased or not etc. one thing for sure, is that no adjustment is going to a permant fix if the bearing cups are not a completely level and flat surface for the bearings to work against.

I have also experienced top caps that are so flimsy, they are not reliable in maintaining adjustments made.........and typically 8nm tightening of the stem on the steerer is not going to prevent some movement if the assembly is not snug to start with.

Lastly, paint does not crack. A crack line in paint signifies a crack in the composite it sits on. Composite frames...especially light ones.....are typically constructed using UD carbon layers.............I would expect the area around the bottom of a headtube to be additionally wrapped with a matrix carbon given the varying directions of stress applied there. The Ops photo suggest that is not the case here...............the question is whether the crack has compromised the entire composite or not and that can only be determined by a professional with the right equipment.

 

[E-MAD MALC]

When the fork was replaced did they fit a new star nut or use the nut from the original fork
If not taken out and installed properly with the proper insert tool can lead to slipage requiring constant adjustment and if grease was on the inside of the steerer tube that would add to it needing constant adjusting

 

[Winford]

paint does not crack

All the time it does on carbon frames, from flexing. There is another cracked amflow frame thread similar to this one. Where the silver paint and filler used, cracked near the shock mount.

A headset can become loose

This one had 1/4" or more of play for a while, as indicated on the stem cap step, which shows it was getting pinched ad slapped around

A crack line in paint signifies a crack in the composite it sits on.

Sometimes that is correct, but not all the time.

This needs to be inspected further by someone who knows what they are doing.

But no matter what is found, it would not help the OP at all for a covered warranty replacement.

 

[Stihldog]

A headset can become loose, especially shortly after assembly, and need re a djusting. This is typically caused by grease getting displaced during use but can also be due to some settlement of bearings themselves......or later on a bit of bearing wear.

I agree and it happened to me shortly after a fork service.

I R&R’d the fork with new bearings, cup, grease and a solid aluminum stem cap. Star nut was good and torqued the bolt to 5nm. (Not 4nm).

Spun nice and smooth, bounced it off the floor a few times. Re-checked the torque. Good to go.…until I hit the first patch of gravel.

I immediately noticed something was wrong. (I must be a sensitive guy .) There was a very slight movement between the frame and fork crown. Turned around and went back to the bat-cave .

The torque on the stem bolt had dropped …almost to zero. Re-torqued to 5nm and haven’t had an issue since. Something settled …even after I thought everything was good to go.

 

[Fangs2k]

When the fork was replaced did they fit a new star nut or use the nut from the original fork
If not taken out and installed properly with the proper insert tool can lead to slipage requiring constant adjustment and if grease was on the inside of the steerer tube that would add to it needing constant adjusting

The star nuts only purpose is to preload the bearings from the bolt via the top cap, the stem clamping force on the fork steerer tube then keeps that tension secure.

You could remove the top cap after that, and it should make no difference to headset integrity.

Yes, things can move, but that should become obvious via noises/knocking.

The pictures from @nrgbod of his Amflow headset races show that even a non damaged frames races are a bit rough, so not sure we should take too much from the OPs pics.

He’s speaking to Amflow directly, they’ll sort it out between them, whatever the learned masses of EMTB posit is kind of immaterial now.

 

[Winford]

preload the bearings from the bolt via the top cap

100% correct, yet there were marks on the step from getting slapped around

should make no difference to headset integrity.

Should, but obviously that did not happen

things can move, but that should become obvious via noises/knocking.

Exactly what Jam said it did

not sure we should take too much from the OPs pics.

we did not, he said there was backlash so we know stuff was loose and flopping around. BUT what is important is that the people who engineered and created this bike said there was play, that Jam said existed, and warranty coverage was denied based on said pics. Rightfully so

they’ll sort it out

Been sorted out long time ago, this started as an Amflow smear post, and was shut down as fast as it started.

Jam was not forthright with details we had to drag out of him, where he admits there was backlash in bearing races.

You can try and spin this any way you want, but its been over for a long time now.

 

[Fangs2k]

100% correct, yet there were marks on the step from getting slapped around


Should, but obviously that did not happen


Exactly what Jam said it did


we did not, he said there was backlash so we know stuff was loose and flopping around. BUT what is important is that the people who engineered and created this bike said there was play, that Jam said existed, and warranty coverage was denied based on said pics. Rightfully so

Been sorted out long time ago, this started as an Amflow smear post, and was shut down as fast as it started.

Jam was not forthright with details we had to drag out of him, where he admits there was backlash in bearing races.

You can try and spin this any way you want, but its been over for a long time now.

Captain, I’m not spinning this any way at all, unlike yourself who is standing there with a smoking gun asking yourself whether maybe you should have asked the questions first…

Why are you suddenly white knighting for Amflow? Is it because you’ve purchased one? The undamaged headset frame pics in this very thread also look poor, I’ve changed many headsets over the years on all sorts of frames made with all sorts of materials, I’ve never seen one look as roughly finished as that which is a bit of a red flag. What about the bits you can’t see? Time will tell.

 

[jam56]

Once again, there is no damage to the bearing seat! What amflow support pointed out is not damage, but traces of frame molding, these are traces of gelcoat.
There are marks like this on the top and bottom, these marks are on your frames too. You can remove the fork and see for yourself. There are pictures from another owner in this thread, they have the exact same molding marks.

In the new video I tried to show from different angles that these are not bump marks, that nothing is here and there is not even a step, these are molding marks.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

 

[GodsTherapist]

@Amflow_Support
Replace the frame, now!

 

[mooby77]

Once again, there is no damage to the bearing seat! What amflow support pointed out is not damage, but traces of frame molding, these are traces of gelcoat.
There are marks like this on the top and bottom, these marks are on your frames too. You can remove the fork and see for yourself. There are pictures from another owner in this thread, they have the exact same molding marks.

In the new video I tried to show from different angles that these are not bump marks, that nothing is here and there is not even a step, these are molding marks.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

that looks pretty ropey to me , never seen such on any bike I have ever owned , although always steered clear of carbon , and especially not new but is it just cosmetic or is there a likelihood of stress propagation resulting from such.
Maybe the frame is the weakpoint in the Amflow offering from a quality standpoint ? , but maybe you see it on other carbon bikes from other brands ?

 

[wenna]

But the topcap is only to add preload to the headset bearings. As soon as you have tightened the stem bolts the topcap has no other function than an ornament and a cap for the hole in the steerer tube.

 

[Suns_PSD]

But the topcap is only to add preload to the headset bearings. As soon as you have tightened the stem bolts the topcap has no other function than an ornament and a cap for the hole in the steerer tube.

Yep. And in my experience, after the first ride down the street the front headset always gets loosened up as things get seated all of the way down and the headset needs another tightening up before proper riding. And sometimes it happens again once the real trails happen.

 

[Ndanger]

that looks pretty ropey to me , never seen such on any bike I have ever owned , although always steered clear of carbon

Carbon is not a solution for all applications, although it is ideal for light weight mountain bike. Alloy is a good choice for Downhill and less weight sensitive usage.

that looks pretty ropey to me , never seen such on any bike I have ever owned , although always steered clear of carbon , and especially not new but is it just cosmetic or is there a likelihood of stress propagation resulting from such.
Maybe the frame is the weakpoint in the Amflow offering from a quality standpoint ? , but maybe you see it on other carbon bikes from other brands ?

I have to question the reliability of this comment and much of the information presented by the Op. I see a great deal of speculation that seems to be generated from a person reading a post (and not the entire thread) and deciding without any supporting analysis that they know with certainty the correct opinion.

I understand that rumors circle the earth twice before truth even gets out of bed

 

[Winford]

Why are you suddenly white knighting for Amflow?

White knight for the truth. Sorry that I have a good BS detector, and you have a problem with reality

My goal was to strengthen Jams arguments, but the more we dug, the more truth came out.

He was only trying to smear Amflow with this post after his/shops mistakes.

What about the bits you can’t see?

What part of Jam "later" admitted to having backlash in bearing races that he tightened up and the noise went away, that you do not understand?

There are also marks on the stem cap from being very loose.

Problem only came to be after he had the forks changed, end of story. Nothing to see here if you have any mechanical knowledge at all.

 

[Winford]

speculation

What speculation might that be?

Fact. Jam admitted to having backlash in bearing races, that he tightened up and noise went away. AFTER having forks changed. You can also see the stem cap with marks from wear from being loose, after Jam had the forks changed.

Not a bit of speculation going on here

Fact the warranty has already been denied.

 

[Purple parznip]

Not sure you fully answered my questions, but using a torque wrench alone isn't enough to check the preload on the headset. I've experienced many times, a total shock at how large of a gap is required from the top gap of the spacers or top of the stem to the top of the steerer to actually remove all freeplay.

Why/ how was the frame damaged where the headset was removed? Was that the quality shop that installed the fork that did that?

Why have the headset bearing races been damaged if the headset preload wasn't loose? That doesn't happen if everything is fitted and tightened correctly. Bearings don't rock around in there; they rotate smoothly in there and remain in constant contact.

I'm not taking sides, just trying to look at this objectively.

Thats been bodged,and hit with a hammer,that bottom cup has been “helped in” with a metal,not rubber hammer,if the fork was replaced and also top and bottom cups had to be replaced,they should have been pressed in with the correct tool,not whacked in,sorry,but amflow are correct,its pretty obvious its been walloped,thus causing the crack.

 

[Purple parznip]

White knight for the truth. Sorry that I have a good BS detector, and you have a problem with reality

My goal was to strengthen Jams arguments, but the more we dug, the more truth came out.

He was only trying to smear Amflow with this post after his/shops mistakes.


What part of Jam "later" admitted to having backlash in bearing races that he tightened up and the noise went away, that you do not understand?

There are also marks on the stem cap from being very loose.

Problem only came to be after he had the forks changed, end of story. Nothing to see here if you have any mechanical knowledge at all.

Spot on.

 

[Winford]

they should have been pressed in

Many of the bearing races are floating, meaning they just drop in. No need to press in.

Jam has never showed that part, not sure if this is press or drop in

 

[Purple parznip]

Is that recess some sort of knock block? Did you crash at any time thus potentially damaging the knock block?

How much extra travel did the 38 have? how heavy are you?

Those marks on the head tube do look suspect.

I agree,the knock block has been removed,cups have been hammered in,not fitted snug,hence after riding they become seated,which means headset came loose,its got bodge written all over it.

 

[Purple parznip]

Many of the bearing races are floating, meaning they just drop in. No need to press in.

Jam has never showed that part, not sure if this is press or drop in

Carbon frame,they are normally pressed in,bearing pressed into cup,then cup pressed into frame,same on my cube and my santa

 

[Fangs2k]

White knight for the truth. Sorry that I have a good BS detector, and you have a problem with reality

I suspect I know exactly why you’re now an ‘Amflow fanboi’, can only be a matter of time before you describe the bike as the best thing since somebody decided a loaf of bread would be better cut into thin pieces.

But keep going, the more you write the more obvious it is that you know little of stress raising or stress concentration, nor the possibility that correlation isn’t always causation. Others do, but those who don’t often claim they have a good ‘BS detector’.

 

[Fangs2k]

Carbon frame,they are normally pressed in,bearing pressed into cup,then cup pressed into frame,same on my cube and my santa

Cups are pressed in these days, the sealed bearings should then drop in. If they don’t then something isn’t as round as it should be.

 

[Winford]

I suspect

Not very well my friend

Jam said he had these problems after his forks were changed.

Did Amflow do anything wrong here is the question, how come you avoid that and focus on me.?

Could you focus on the topic and not me?

 

[Winford]

describe the bike as the best thing since somebody decided a loaf of bread

I dont have to, almost every review already says that

 

[Winford]

Carbon frame,they are normally pressed in

Right my Canyon is as well.

But I have a few frames that were drop in.

One thing not up for debate, this thread has so many red flags. And its hilarious at how some refuse the facts in favor of personal attacks.

It starts out warranty denied. It was over before it started, then as we peeled back layers of the onion, the truth started showing. And people still are crying.

 

[John_likes_bikes]

There are no headset cups, it's an intergrated headset.

 

[Fangs2k]

Not very well my friend

Jam said he had these problems after his forks were changed.

Did Amflow do anything wrong here is the question, how come you avoid that and focus on me.?

Could you focus on the topic and not me?

Again, you’re assuming the two things are directly related. It’s entirely possible that the fork play and the cracks are separate issues.

The frame needs independent inspection , you can’t trust the organisation that will need to put their hand in their pocket to reach an unbiased conclusion.

 

[Fangs2k]

There are no headset cups, it's an intergrated headset.

Even worse then, an integrated headset where the bearing isn’t supported 360 degrees is asking for trouble. See the other headset pics with random carbon layup.

 

[Fangs2k]

And people still are crying.

Here you go again, somebody having a different view to yourself is a ‘Karen’ or ‘crying’.

Have your say, accept that others might think different, move on.

 

[Winford]

you’re assumin

I assume nothing

The fact Jam did not admit to a loose headset, until we dragged it out of him. Means no warranty would ever be honored. Nor should it be.

And how the Stem was damaged, is beyond me. But its only another red flag

you can’t trust the organisation

It is not about trust. It never been about trust.

But thank you for showing your bias, it makes clear sense of why you wrote what you write.

it’s entirely possible that the fork play and the cracks are separate issues.

100% correct. But factually it does not matter.

The problem did not show up until after he had his forks changed. And there are so many red flags, I would be pissed if amflow caved into this garbage pile you seem to be defending poorly

I get it you dont like me, or almflow. But you have no credible discussion to add