SZZS specific CEF50-main thread (initial builds and troubleshooting related only)

[TCFlowClyde]

My thinking was to match the frame but what the hell do I know. I'll be running it MX so that would slacken things out a bit. Also I was going to run it 170mm. So it should end up being somewhere around 165/170.

Wait...my bad! 44OS not 51. I forgot as I bought them almost 4 months ago now since I committed to the CEF50 frame ...wow!

Here's a primer I just read...helped me a little to better understand.

Fork Offset Explained: What is it? Why Are MTB Fork Offsets Reduced? 44 vs 51?

When mountain bikes equipped with short offset forks started getting buzz, I was quick to buy a 44mm offset FOX 36 fork and test it out. Was it good? Yes. Did it change my world? Not quite.

www.theproscloset.com

 

[Myalteregohamish]

I’ve tried both 44 and 51 on my Ripmo. The biggest thing I notice is the speed of the steering. Not crazy but it’s a bit more sensitive. For my riding style it gives me the feeling at speed I can change directions very easily. It can make a longer bike feel like you can chuck it around a bit more. Either way given 5 rides on a new offset you completely forget about it.

 

[TCFlowClyde]

I just went with my 44 OS cause was on sale and I got the Zeb charger 3.1 damper and buttercups etc.

Also, the article said 44 tends to be 27.5er and 51 29er "standard'" .

I probably couldn't tell you if they feel different unless you pointed it out to me. Like you said habituate fast with muscle memory.

 

[Myalteregohamish]

That’s so funny. I bought the Fox 38 factory in a 51 specifically because the price reflected the same kind of discount one would get from cigarettes that had fallen out of the back of truck in New Jersey.

 

[TCFlowClyde]

That’s so funny. I bought the Fox 38 factory in a 51 specifically because the price reflected the same kind of discount one would get from cigarettes that had fallen out of the back of truck in New Jersey.

Yeah...true was decent but the discount could've always been a little deeper.

It's one reason I decided to try the CEF50 and go bigger travel and try a Zeb for first time.

How do like your 38?

 

[mike_kelly]

You are just going to change the angles slightly. If you want to be true to the design use 51 but you can certainly try a fork you have and see what it feels like. I have a 48 that I don't think will change thing much.

 

[temon10]

My frame + motor + battery ships on friday

yours already shipped or also have delay like me?

 

[Myalteregohamish]

Yeah...true was decent but the discount could've always been a little deeper.

It's one reason I decided to try the CEF50 and go bigger travel and try a Zeb for first time.

How do like your 38?

I mistyped, it's a 36. I've never owned a 38 so I can't say what the difference is. But the 36 has been great but you don't know what you're missing till you try it. That said I'd rather have a dependable low maintenance transmission.

SRAM X0 T-Type Eagle Transmission Groupset - 175mm Crank, 32t Chainring, AXS POD Controller, 10-52t Cassette, Rear

Wonder why the SRAM X0 Eagle AXS T-Type Transmission Groupset is a mountain biker favorite in the Kit-In-A-Box Mtn Group collection? Part #00.7918.168.000. The SRAM X0 Eagle T-Type AXS Transmission groupset is their most robust high-performance transmission. This T-Type transmission takes a...

www.worldwidecyclery.com

 

[forsa355]

I mistyped, it's a 36. I've never owned a 38 so I can't say what the difference is. But the 36 has been great but you don't know what you're missing till you try it. That said I'd rather have a dependable low maintenance transmission.

SRAM X0 T-Type Eagle Transmission Groupset - 175mm Crank, 32t Chainring, AXS POD Controller, 10-52t Cassette, Rear

Wonder why the SRAM X0 Eagle AXS T-Type Transmission Groupset is a mountain biker favorite in the Kit-In-A-Box Mtn Group collection? Part #00.7918.168.000. The SRAM X0 Eagle T-Type AXS Transmission groupset is their most robust high-performance transmission. This T-Type transmission takes a...

www.worldwidecyclery.com

speaking of which, does anyone know if this frame uses a Universal Derailleur Hanger (UDH)?

 

[TCFlowClyde]

I mistyped, it's a 36. I've never owned a 38 so I can't say what the difference is. But the 36 has been great but you don't know what you're missing till you try it. That said I'd rather have a dependable low maintenance transmission.

SRAM X0 T-Type Eagle Transmission Groupset - 175mm Crank, 32t Chainring, AXS POD Controller, 10-52t Cassette, Rear

Wonder why the SRAM X0 Eagle AXS T-Type Transmission Groupset is a mountain biker favorite in the Kit-In-A-Box Mtn Group collection? Part #00.7918.168.000. The SRAM X0 Eagle T-Type AXS Transmission groupset is their most robust high-performance transmission. This T-Type transmission takes a...

www.worldwidecyclery.com

Nice! The old AXS should be cheaper going forward due to new XX AXS launch that uses the UDH. Just yesterday, the owner of The Lost Co. named Mike offered to sell me the GX AXS for $500 down from $650. But I think it will drop down even lower to +/- $450 by end of summer if you don't mind waiting.

Luckily, I got mine a few years ago for $440 20% off promo by a shop owner if I would preorder it a few months in advance around X-mas So,I went for it and has been awesome.

 

[TCFlowClyde]

speaking of which, does anyone know if this frame uses a Universal Derailleur Hanger (UDH)?

Standard. I'm pretty sure. But it might be wise to clarify with SZC.

Update: I just request a pic of the current derailleur hanger. I'll post it when she answers. Unless someone else knows for sure.
New update: it looks to be standard from a still pic of one of their stress test vids Linda sent me.

 

[mike_kelly]

Why would I want to abandon all my compatible components for a proprietary outrageously expensive drivetrain?
More reliable, shifting under load? Who cares, my current drivetrains work just fine thank you.

 

[TCFlowClyde]

Why would I want to abandon all my compatible components for a proprietary outrageously expensive drivetrain?
More reliable, shifting under load? Who cares, my current drivetrains work just fine thank you.

The XX seems nice but cost is super high for sure. I guess lots of tech upgrades for robustness and shifting precison.

"Old school" Axs GX does shift under load somewhat better than wired on my higher torque M600...but still I'm rarely out of the saddle climbing a hill trying to downshift to an easier gear. Honestly with full-powered a lot of climbing is done sitting especially higher power modes, so it's a helpful feature to minimize chain snap and cassette wearing.

The M820-75 is putting out higher torque too (for mid-powered anyway), so I am thinking my AXS GX should work similarly in high precision shifting over my XT as was my full-powered.

Anyway, I put my XT back on the M600 motor, as it will see less use if the CEF50 works for me as intended.

 

[stuff]

yours already shipped or also have delay like me?

Delayed waiting for the charger but at least got a picture, looks amazing!!

 

[mike_kelly]

The XX seems nice but cost is super high for sure. I guess lots of tech upgrades for robustness and shifting precison.

"Old school" Axs GX does shift under load somewhat better than wired on my higher torque M600...but still I'm rarely out of the saddle climbing a hill trying to downshift to an easier gear. Honestly with full-powered a lot of climbing is done sitting especially higher power modes, so it's a helpful feature to minimize chain snap and cassette wearing.

The M820-75 is putting out higher torque too (for mid-powered anyway), so I am thinking my AXS GX should work similarly in high precision shifting over my XT as was my full-powered.

Anyway, I put my XT back on the M600 motor, as it will see less use if the CEF50 works for me as intended.

There is a point in time that the marginal gain just does not make sense to lose the value of compatibility and cost value.
I would not put it on my new bike if you gave it to me because I am not going to invest in an upgrade to all my other bikes. I value compatibility.

 

[TCFlowClyde]

There is a point in time that the marginal gain just does not make sense to lose the value of compatibility and cost value.
I would not put it on my new bike if you gave it to me because I am not going to invest in an upgrade to all my other bikes. I value compatibility.

I hear yah. I wouldn't necessarily call AXS "marginal" performance enhancement ...it's definitely an upgrade in robust and constant shifting overtime...no barrel adjustments due to cable stretch etc. (was at times 2-3 x/month on mine).
It's upgrade enough at the lower price. It's the cost/benefit tradeoff really for me

But I'll will look to replace my XT with the AXS GX but not for a while...it's more economics. Still trying to recover from the CEF50 build.

The XX AXS due to the frame compatibility will be at least 3-5 years in the future for me. Maybe by then a true lightweight, $1000, 8-spd wireless E-mtb internally gear hub will be available.

 

[mike_kelly]

I was referring to the new "Transmission" system.

 

[temon10]

There is a point in time that the marginal gain just does not make sense to lose the value of compatibility and cost value.
I would not put it on my new bike if you gave it to me because I am not going to invest in an upgrade to all my other bikes. I value compatibility.

yess, for me I just wanna build lightweight EMTB sub 20kg with budget under $5000.

 

[badIuck]

really interested in the weights of your frames+battery+motor+other needed electronics so please weigh them before you build the bikes

 

[TCFlowClyde]

From Linda: standard DH

 

[mike_kelly]

Delayed waiting for the charger but at least got a picture, looks amazing!!

View attachment 110090

That is not raw carbon but flat black? Did you have to pay for the paint or is that standard? Looks great.

 

[mike_kelly]

This no doubt a stupid question...
Why don't high end emtbs need brake and shift sensors?

 

[temon10]

That is not raw carbon but flat black? Did you have to pay for the paint or is that standard? Looks great.

matte black no added pay

 

[mike_kelly]

matte black no added pay

Cool. I wonder about raw carbon not being sealed with some kind of paint or varnish.

 

[Zimmerframe]

This no doubt a stupid question...
Why don't high end emtbs need brake and shift sensors?

If I'm understanding your question correctly.

"low end emtb's" generally have a hub motor. Most hub motors don't have torque sensors and often for pedal position, if they do have a crank sensor, it probably only registers each revolution.

In this situation, when you brake, the motor might still be assisting - hence they have brake sensors to cut the motor.

Some mid mount motors, for instance a Shimano with Di2 will effectively have a shift sensor and cuts the motor momentarily when changing gears. The Bosch motors try to determine when you're about to change gears from the change in torque and cadence and ease back the assistance for a smoother change. They can also be linked into various other systems to physically detect shifting with shift sense. Generally though, they all work on the rider learning to ease off the power when changing gears - as you would on a normal bike.

 

[stuff]

That is not raw carbon but flat black? Did you have to pay for the paint or is that standard? Looks great.

Its flat black, you’re right and didn’t had any extra charge for it.
Looks really nice imo also!

 

[thaeber]

I'm using 51mm on 180 27.5er. Probably best feedback will be from our resident mechanical engineer with big travel Enduro knowledge: thaeber. He's the man!

Thanks for the flowers mate ideed I investigated this in deep to get my opinion on that. Takeaway is, that the difference is almost not noticeable. There is a slight reduction of trail with the bigger offset, that should result in a livelier steering bahviour. But at a 130ish mm trail the difference is only a few mm, and I doubt that this is a gamechanger. @Myalteregohamish had the opportunity to try it himself on the same bike (what I never had), and I think his answer tells the story quite well

 

[Myalteregohamish]

Why would I want to abandon all my compatible components for a proprietary outrageously expensive drivetrain?
More reliable, shifting under load? Who cares, my current drivetrains work just fine thank you.

Truth is you’re right. That said it’s the down side of having grown kids and a disposable income. I’m not a proud man .

 

[Myalteregohamish]

Delayed waiting for the charger but at least got a picture, looks amazing!!

View attachment 110090

Man that frame looks good. I hope it rides and is reliable as it is good looking.

 

[mike_kelly]

If I'm understanding your question correctly.

"low end emtb's" generally have a hub motor. Most hub motors don't have torque sensors and often for pedal position, if they do have a crank sensor, it probably only registers each revolution.

In this situation, when you brake, the motor might still be assisting - hence they have brake sensors to cut the motor.

Some mid mount motors, for instance a Shimano with Di2 will effectively have a shift sensor and cuts the motor momentarily when changing gears. The Bosch motors try to determine when you're about to change gears from the change in torque and cadence and ease back the assistance for a smoother change. They can also be linked into various other systems to physically detect shifting with shift sense. Generally though, they all work on the rider learning to ease off the power when changing gears - as you would on a normal bike.

Thanks for the info. My Eunora FAT-HS is a mid-drive Bafang BBSHD has brake and shift sensors but my Orbea Rise with EP8 does not. SInce there is no electronic shifting on the EP8 I was wondering how it dealt with it. I have never sensed a reving up of the motor during shifting or a resistance to braking.