Most reliable EMTB's?

[shep]

with display from 80'ies Star Trek ? Purion ?

Strong , reliable and easy to use.
It's about reliability not being up with fekin Barbie movie and the latest hair do...
My bike is solid, reliable and above all the best.
I guess you ride a phone app plastic kids toy?

 

[Expidia]

If you are looking for reliability, opinions will vary and one problem you will encounter seeking views from existing EMTBers, is that having spent a lot of money on an EMTB, those owners are loath to admit they bought a bad one!!

Without going into brands I would suggest you make your choice based on deliberately selecting some elements of bike design/componentry whilst avoiding others. My list would be:-

Avoid: Carbon frames, cables run through headsets, top tube mounted controllers, non ( retail) brand hubs/freehubs, base level drivetrain, brake and suspension components, uneccesary electrical components/functions/apps. ( navigation/heart monitor/bike lock/updates)

Select: Branded wheelsets/hubs and freehubs, at least mid range brake,drivetrain and suspension components.

I think most would agree that the Bosch CX performance motor is proving to be the most reliable currently although all motors need to be treated with some consideration for prolonged reliability, with water ingress possibly their worse enemy ( whether through on trial use or when cleaning the bike)

An EMTB requires more maintenance than an MTB with special attention given to drivetrain. Doing your own maintenance on a regular basis will greatly improve reliability. If that means investing in a good range of tools and going though a learning process, those are costs worth paying.

Best answer to this frequently recurring question I've seen yet . . . Well done Mikerb!

 

[Mikerb]

Re the controller discussion. Last generation Bosch equipped bikes used the Purion which proved very reliable and easy to replace if damaged. Some did not like the aesthetics but I don't think you can argue about its functionality. When the Bosch Smart System was introduced the controller was the bar mounted LED Remote and the cabling system was uprated with common push fit connectors. The ready availability of all the cables at different lengths and the LED Remote from any Bosch retailer ......coupled with the Flow App makes the whole set up DIY plug and play. Again some do not like the aesthetics and Bosch Smart later released the Bluetooth mini remote and top tube controller. I prefer the accessibility and easier to maintain LED Remote.

 

[Ride 2d@y]

Circling back to your TLDR - Buy a Specialized, Trek or Giant from the your favorite LBS. Demo the different models, buy one and ride the bikes much as you can during the warranty period - if you still like it after that, you add it to your quiver as a backup bike ha ha

 

[Expidia]

Don't put too much faith in your local bike shop being around that long. During Covid there was an EMTB boon and now some smaller companies are going belly up. Many are way over stocked plus in the U.S. they have jacked up minimum wage to $15-20 and hour. I don't see how many LBS can survive with declining revenue once gas prices start to cycle down again and people return to their couches. So buy local for the potential warranty work, but as someone else might have mentioned above is to start to collect the basic tools (like a Park or other bike stand etc) and watch Youtubes as to how to perform basic maintenance which will give you a better shot at a problem free bike. No matter the brand, keep the motor and controller dry as best you can. Water ingress seems to be the major motor killer as it pops up often as a complaint from reading threads here. Also, from my readings Specialized may have great customer service, but their internal belt driven motors have numerous complaints in the threads here.

 

[B1rdie]

This should be a pretty solid beasty and great value with the spec.

Is this the sleeper EMTB of 2023?

Haibike NDURO 8. All this bike for £4498 brand new... EDIT 10th Nov, now £4199 :eek: PROS: Long travel, 720Wh battery, 85Nm Yamaha PWX-3 Motor. Incredible suspension spec for money. Enduro GEO with long CS (460mm maybe a con for some). CONS: Heavy (26KG?) The suspension alone is almost £3k

www.emtbforums.com

But, is ever going to break?!?!?
I guess this is the point in this unreadable thread, were people from the north spend their unrideable time
I’ll give my shot: jus like guns don’t kill people. Bikes don’t break, people brake bikes

 

[rzr]

Strong , reliable and easy to use.
It's about reliability not being up with fekin Barbie movie and the latest hair do...
My bike is solid, reliable and above all the best.
I guess you ride a phone app plastic kids toy?

I ride this:
(this is smth I consider reliable, small and indestructible )

However, with Purion, it means you cannot customise any modes, right? which is a big bummer - and that's the 'brain' - if you smash it, you'll push your bike home...
(it's not new bosch system which adds some customisation options)

 

[Mikerb]

I ride this:
(this is smth I consider reliable, small and indestructible )
View attachment 128564



However, with Purion, it means you cannot customise any modes, right? which is a big bummer.
(it's not new bosch system which adds some customisation options)

True but it is just a mode switch...not a controller and it is the controller that is the "brain" of a CAN. Any new Bosch motored bike will now be Bosch Smart Sytem so the Purion is no more.....having said that...true to form...Bosch have labelled the new LED Remote with integral Kiox like display, the Purion 200!! (I say true to form because Bosch also used the branding "Kiox" for 2 completely different display units adding only a"300" suffix to the Smart Sytem version to differentiate them. Kiox is a controller/display....Kiox 300 is simple display unit working as a slave screen for the LED Remote controller)

 

[HugoStiglitz]

Wait a minute, a few posts above you wrote the Rail off because you wanted a shorter travel bike..? The Rail is 160/150 yet the Wild is 160/160 and the Levo & Heckler are 160/150 what gives?

You want Reliability... Bosch.

Buy local, thats my only other advice.

My mistake. I first of all thought that the Rail was just the motorized version of the Slash. I didn't realize it's a 160/150. I just looked it up. But I remember when I looked up the Rail a few weeks ago, they only had size XL with 495 reach and 639 stack. So too small. But after going through ALL of the Rails on Trek's site, it looks like one called the Gen 4 does have a 517 reach 660 stack version! So that's on my list now! Thank you for mentioning this. I would have never known. AND it has the Bosch motor AND a removable battery, which means I could buy two, so I could just fly around in Turbo mode all day and have another battery in the truck waiting!

Thanks!

 

[HugoStiglitz]

@HugoStiglitz If you haven't read it yet, take a look at the thread linked below which discusses motor reliability and repairability. Lots of good information on the topic.

I'd personally vouch for a Bosch CX Gen 4 motor. Has been trouble free on my Moterra MY 2021. Trying not to get it wet!

Need help deciding on a reliable motor.

So as stated in a previous post by myself, I’ve gone through 2 Shimano EP8 motors in 315 miles. This has really put me off e-bikes in general, but I just love riding them! I ride mostly red and black runs, jumps, drops, rock gardens, etc. Everything that rattles a bike around, so part of me...

www.emtbforums.com

Thank you. I'm going to read this a bit later today. I appreciate it!

*edit
Read through this entire post and noticed this BearingMan guy that owns and operates a Emotor shop in the UK. LOTS of great info in there and the point I think I come out with the most for keeping a MTB motor going is........ KEEP. IT. DRY. haha At ALL costs. But, that the new gen Specialized motors are the best, followed by the Dyname 4 from RM, the Bosch and finally at the bottom the Shimano. And that all of them can break down and have issues. And that the warranty and bike shop is the most important aspect of all of this. And to KEEP IT DRY.

Thanks for linking me to this article. And thanks to everyone for cluing me in on what REALLY matters with these EMTB's. It's hard to know where to begin and what to ask. But having read through a TON of posts now on this forum, plus everyone's responses, is making it very clear what you need to look out for. And that servicing your EMTB often, keeping it dry and finding a good warranty and shop are the keys. Not so much the motors. Sounds like ALL of them are not great and not even really rated for off road use (according to bearingman). But, that taking care of the bike, motor, battery, keeping it dry at all costs, and servicing it regularly is your best way to have the highest chance of no failures.

Thanks everyone. I definitely have a much better idea of what I want to do when it comes time to get my EMTB. I really appreciate all the help

 

[shep]

I ride this:
(this is smth I consider reliable, small and indestructible )
View attachment 128564



However, with Purion, it means you cannot customise any modes, right? which is a big bummer - and that's the 'brain' - if you smash it, you'll push your bike home...
(it's not new bosch system which adds some customisation options)

Lol
I don't need to customise any of my bike. There in lies the problems you will have.
I just ride and enjoy.
It is tough and reliable so we shall see how long your bike lasts over mine eh...

 

[HugoStiglitz]

Don't put too much faith in your local bike shop being around that long. During Covid there was an EMTB boon and now some smaller companies are going belly up. Many are way over stocked plus in the U.S. they have jacked up minimum wage to $15-20 and hour. I don't see how many LBS can survive with declining revenue once gas prices start to cycle down again and people return to their couches. So buy local for the potential warranty work, but as someone else might have mentioned above is to start to collect the basic tools (like a Park or other bike stand etc) and watch Youtubes as to how to perform basic maintenance which will give you a better shot at a problem free bike. No matter the brand, keep the motor and controller dry as best you can. Water ingress seems to be the major motor killer as it pops up often as a complaint from reading threads here. Also, from my readings Specialized may have great customer service, but their internal belt driven motors have numerous complaints in the threads here.

All good and valid points. I do know how to work on my bike and cars, so that will help. Plus my buddy I bike with is basically as knowlegeaable as a car/motorcycle mechanic and has all the tools we'd ever need to do anything. So that's really nice to have a nice stand and all the tools and be right by me. We built my Megatower from scratch and had an amazing time doing it. Learned some stuff along the way and now are having a blast riding MTBs together (we used to ride Road bikes together, but MTB'ng is SO much more fun, we never go Road biking anymore, haha).

The local bike stores may go out, true. But both of these stores have been around for ages and are well visited by almost everyone in the city. Plus they're in a wealthy part of town, so they get a LOT of rich people buying expensive bikes pretty often, in addition to the regular or mid priced stuff they sell often. And of course Trek has multiple stores in our city. So I'm not too worried about any of the local shops going under. But.... it could happen and something to think about. But, buying from a big brand with the most bike shops in the US, like Specialized, Trek and Santa Cruz, is probably going to be my safest bet. Even if my local shop went under, there are other stores in my city or other cities I could get to for support. Buying from Canyon or YT or something like that is a total no go for this bike as I explained earlier. No local support and I've read horror stories about people dealing with mail order bike companies for warranty stuff.

Then thank you for all that helpful info about keeping it dry, maintenance, etc. All VERY important info to know once I get an EMTB.

 

[JP-NZ]

My mistake. I first of all thought that the Rail was just the motorized version of the Slash. I didn't realize it's a 160/150. I just looked it up. But I remember when I looked up the Rail a few weeks ago, they only had size XL with 495 reach and 639 stack. So too small. But after going through ALL of the Rails on Trek's site, it looks like one called the Gen 4 does have a 517 reach 660 stack version! So that's on my list now! Thank you for mentioning this. I would have never known. AND it has the Bosch motor AND a removable battery, which means I could buy two, so I could just fly around in Turbo mode all day and have another battery in the truck waiting!

Thanks!

Yes, the higher spec Rail's Gen3 and Gen4 have the longer reach.

To your post below, Reliability is so hard to judge but your on the right track with Newer Brose/All Bosch being at the top and shimano sadly down the order. I wouldn't even look at Dyname as thats only in Rocky Mountain bikes.

Sounds like your most of the way there, now the fun part to get out and do some test rides!

 

[Mikerb]

I can compare Brose with Bosch CX Performance/Bosch Smart and Bosch CX Performance gen2 ( Purion). Firstly Brose is the quietist albeit it makes a bit more noise in turbo. I do not find the Bosch CX motor noise intrusive but some bikes also experience motor rattle with the Bosch..........its not there on either of my bosch bikes so I think it is down to the kinematics of any particular bike causing chain kick..which then causes a motor rattle.
In terms of performance the 3 Brose modes (ECO/Train/Turbo)are tuneable so experience can vary depending on the settings you use for pedal assist and maximum on each mode. In terms of pedal assist I used settings of 30% Eco 50% trail and 100% turbo. Using those settings trail is a nice mode for most offroad conditions with turbo just needed for steeper climbs. The power also comes in at fairly low cadences ( e.g 50 rpm).
The Bosch CX prior to Smart System has 4 modes...eco, tour ( or tour+) EMTB and Turbo. EMTB is roughly equivalent to the Brose trail ( using my settings) with the biggest difference being the power delivery requires a higher constant cadence ( c70rpm plus). Bosch CX with the Smart System has the same modes but each is tuneable using the Flow app. I have EMTB set at 3 and that is a brilliant multi purpose mode, in fact the only mode I use offroad with virtually never a need to use Turbo. Unlike the Turbo setting it is however progressive and completely controllable. It no longer needs a higher cadence but it is more efficient and uses less battery if you try to average c 70RPM.

 

[HugoStiglitz]

I just remembered another important question. And this is not just for me, but for posterity for everyone to see.

If any one knows FOR SURE, what the warranty is on the EMTB's for Specialized, Trek, Orbea, Santa Cruz and Rocky Mountain, can you please list them here, for not only myself but everyone to see. I see frame warranty and other stuff like that, but nothing on the motors, and very limited info for the battery or electronics for the EMTB.

Looks like Trek says the frame is for life, but the Bosch motor only has a 2 yr warranty. But can't find any info on the battery or electronics.

Specialized Turbo batteries only have a 2 yr warranty.

Rocky Mtn is also only 2 yrs on the battery.

Other then that, I can't find any more info.


So that would be SUPER helpful info to have posted here, so we all know. Thanks

 

[HugoStiglitz]

I can compare Brose with Bosch CX Performance/Bosch Smart and Bosch CX Performance gen2 ( Purion). Firstly Brose is the quietist albeit it makes a bit more noise in turbo. I do not find the Bosch CX motor noise intrusive but some bikes also experience motor rattle with the Bosch..........its not there on either of my bosch bikes so I think it is down to the kinematics of any particular bike causing chain kick..which then causes a motor rattle.
In terms of performance the 3 Brose modes (ECO/Train/Turbo)are tuneable so experience can vary depending on the settings you use for pedal assist and maximum on each mode. In terms of pedal assist I used settings of 30% Eco 50% trail and 100% turbo. Using those settings trail is a nice mode for most offroad conditions with turbo just needed for steeper climbs. The power also comes in at fairly low cadences ( e.g 50 rpm).
The Bosch CX prior to Smart System has 4 modes...eco, tour ( or tour+) EMTB and Turbo. EMTB is roughly equivalent to the Brose trail ( using my settings) with the biggest difference being the power delivery requires a higher constant cadence ( c70rpm plus). Bosch CX with the Smart System has the same modes but each is tuneable using the Flow app. I have EMTB set at 3 and that is a brilliant multi purpose mode, in fact the only mode I use offroad with virtually never a need to use Turbo. Unlike the Turbo setting it is however progressive and completely controllable. It no longer needs a higher cadence but it is more efficient and uses less battery if you try to average c 70RPM.

Very helpful info! Thank you so much

 

[JP-NZ]

Looks like Trek says the frame is for life, but the Bosch motor only has a 2 yr warranty. But can't find any info on the battery or electronics.

This is correct, Batt & electronics are 2 years as well for Trek. I asked when I purchased mine last year.

Nearly all EMTB Battery, electronics & Motors are 24 months

 

[rzr]

Lol
I don't need to customise any of my bike. There in lies the problems you will have.
I just ride and enjoy.
It is tough and reliable so we shall see how long your bike lasts over mine eh...

I rode Trek Rail for a month, older Bosch gen4 without customisations - that was one of the main reasons I got rid of it.
All modes are just stupid, they give you full power or Eco which gives you almost no power (not designed for MTB)

 

[rzr]

I can compare Brose with Bosch CX Performance/Bosch Smart and Bosch CX Performance gen2 ( Purion). Firstly Brose is the quietist albeit it makes a bit more noise in turbo. I do not find the Bosch CX motor noise intrusive but some bikes also experience motor rattle with the Bosch..........its not there on either of my bosch bikes so I think it is down to the kinematics of any particular bike causing chain kick..which then causes a motor rattle.
In terms of performance the 3 Brose modes (ECO/Train/Turbo)are tuneable so experience can vary depending on the settings you use for pedal assist and maximum on each mode. In terms of pedal assist I used settings of 30% Eco 50% trail and 100% turbo. Using those settings trail is a nice mode for most offroad conditions with turbo just needed for steeper climbs. The power also comes in at fairly low cadences ( e.g 50 rpm).
The Bosch CX prior to Smart System has 4 modes...eco, tour ( or tour+) EMTB and Turbo. EMTB is roughly equivalent to the Brose trail

Not exactly, Tour (i think i didn't have tour+) and EMTB give up to full power.
If you produce >~250W, all 3 modes (tour, emtb, turbo) give the same power (max) and use your battery the same way. that was my main concern about Bosch, I couldn't set/ride mode between Eco (which is weak) and Tour (which was giving full power if you pedal hard).

 

[shep]

Not exactly, Tour (i think i didn't have tour+) and EMTB give up to full power.
If you produce >~250W, all 3 modes (tour, emtb, turbo) give the same power (max) and use your battery the same way. that was my main concern about Bosch, I couldn't set/ride mode between Eco (which is weak) and Tour (which was giving full power if you pedal hard).

I run it around in EMTB mode and it's just fine.
Gives me what I need when required.
If I was going to change anything I would tell it that it's running 27.5 wheels and that would be it.

 

[Zimmerframe]

All modes are just stupid, they give you full power or Eco which gives you almost no power (not designed for MTB)

Not exactly, Tour (i think i didn't have tour+) and EMTB give up to full power.
If you produce >~250W, all 3 modes (tour, emtb, turbo) give the same power (max) and use your battery the same way. that was my main concern about Bosch, I couldn't set/ride mode between Eco (which is weak) and Tour (which was giving full power if you pedal hard).

Just to correct this (and give another view) for anyone looking at the none Smart bosch bikes.

Eco - personally I think is great (ok, it's horrible and painful because you have to work) but it's great if you want to go for a huge ride/high altitude gains - it's not magic, the bike does less .. it's "Eco".

The original "Tour" gave 140% assist and max 50nm torque. Which felt like a steady support mode which was more than Eco but less than you could get with EMTB/Turbo.

Tour+ replaced Tour (your bike shop can swap them around) Tour+ is adaptive like EMTB mode, except it starts with a lower level of assistance and you have to work harder for more assistance. It does give upto 360% assistance and 85nm Torque.

EMTB is perfect for most things. Just put it in it and get on with your ride. It's economical and gives assistance when you want it. It's the perfect balanced mode.

Turbo's great for emptying your battery and destroying your chains/cassettes (due to the longer overrun if you're not used to it). You don't have to pedal hard to get assistance and lots of it.

Initially, I hated the idea of not being able to adjust modes - also riding a Spesh. But you soon adapt and realise that the modes there give you a great spread once you learn how to use them for what you need.

 

[shep]

Definitely.
Messing around and changing the factory parameters just escalates chain and tyre wear. That's ok if you like spending £50+ on a rear tyre every 3 months ...
I've not tackled anything yet that has required more than I can do or the bike for that matter.
I'm a competent rider with good downhill skills so get on just fine.
Also running a heavy aluminium bike because I want too doesn't make me any slower. In fact if anything I'm quicker than the guys I ride with because I have less to loose in a crash ...

 

[rzr]

i guess you didn't get it. I wanted slower mode than tour+,emtb,turbo, to ride more ....
however, if you think that changing 'factory parameters' is bad ...
just remember that these parameters were set by some boffins that didn't see MTB from a mile ... this is what I think about Bosch (at least previous gen4) and comparing it to Specialized system.

 

[RiderOnTheStorm]

taking care of the bike, motor, battery, keeping it dry at all costs, and servicing it regularly is your best way to have the highest chance of no failures.

I think you pretty much summed it up!

My philosophy when it comes to choosing and using an ebike has always been about:

1) Selecting a frame design, geometry and material matching my usage needs and riding patterns. Aluminum rear triangle is a must (if everything else is Carbon). Adequate suspension travel, wheelset size, etc.

2) Determining the correct bike size for my build, and have it professionally fitted to my morphology (very important step).

3) Selecting higher-end, quality components. In other words, getting the best parts I can reasonably afford.

4) Requiring a motorization/motor brand that I consider to be superior to others. For me it's the Bosch CX Gen 4 motor (non-smart system) with latest FW and good ol' Purion handlebar-mounted controller. Awesome piece of equipement if you ask me, but YMMV.

5) Opting for an easily removable or detachable battery. A must-have in my book.

6) Then, riding the bike knowing its limitations (and mine!) including avoiding water ingress and humidity in motor, battery, electrical components and bearings.

7) Finally, taking good care of the bike with pre-ride inspections with lub and re-tightening, regular maintenance and service with proactive parts replacement, and basically use common sense and follow best-practices to keep the bike in top shape!

Hope this helps. Good luck with your next eMTB pick!

 

[Tubby G]

I rode Trek Rail for a month, older Bosch gen4 without customisations - that was one of the main reasons I got rid of it.
All modes are just stupid, they give you full power or Eco which gives you almost no power (not designed for MTB)

Must admit I found exactly this with the older Bosch non-smart. Eco was pointless, and all the other modes felt too powerful, even tour.

I’ll be trying out the new Bosch smart system this weekend and I’ve already dialled down the power in the flow app, so hopefully I’ll get to see why everyone seems to love Bosch finally

 

[Mikerb]

The problem with understanding power modes is that they are usually explained merely as "x%" times rider input. Our bikes however have both torque and cadence sensors so the motor support is in fact delivered in accordance with how those 2 variables are configured in the motor firmware. Specialized tried to make this a little easier to grasp by splitting settings for each mode into pedal assist and Max. The difference being that the pedal assist setting determined the motor support % that was easy to access as opposed to requiring stronger rider inputs to access support levels above that.
In practise it means you extract the best performance from any motor by learning its characteristics. .........which are determined not only by the max torque of each motor but also by the algorithm of cadence and crank torque written by software engineers in their attempt to make power delivery s.ooth a d progressive in various riding scenarios.
There is no doubt in my mind that Specialized did a brilliant job of that as far back as 2018 or that the Bosch cx performance is now able to match it with the aid of mode tuning in the Flow app.

 

[rzr]

Must admit I found exactly this with the older Bosch non-smart. Eco was pointless, and all the other modes felt too powerful, even tour.

I’ll be trying out the new Bosch smart system this weekend and I’ve already dialled down the power in the flow app, so hopefully I’ll get to see why everyone seems to love Bosch finally

I'm curious about that, my mate wants to buy ebike with new bosch (striven probably), I'd like to hear how customisation works.
I change my settings almost every ride (mostly trail mode), it depends how much time I have and how much I want to ride that day.

 

[Tubby G]

I'm curious about that, my mate wants to buy ebike with new bosch (striven probably), I'd like to hear how customisation works.
I change my settings almost every ride (mostly trail mode), it depends how much time I have and how much I want to ride that day.

Well that’s what I just went and got myself

I’ll be playing around with the settings in the flow app and getting it dialled in so I’ll report back after the weekend

 

[shep]

i guess you didn't get it. I wanted slower mode than tour+,emtb,turbo, to ride more ....
however, if you think that changing 'factory parameters' is bad ...
just remember that these parameters were set by some boffins that didn't see MTB for a mile ... this is what I think about Bosch (at least previous gen4) and comparing it to Specialized system.

Good luck

 

[michael_bc]

Bosch is reliable. Engineering from the Stuttgart area is usually reliable. That said, I just switched to Shimano

Regarding bikes, the most reliable thing to do is to buy a brand that is supported by one of your local bike shops.