Alexbn921
Well-known member
What's wrong with that?
Yes full charge cycle is 100% capacity and I use 85-90% every ride.
In real life how long before we need a new battery?
- Thread starter 1oldfart
- Start date
Yes full charge cycle is 100% capacity and I use 85-90% every ride.
Emtb batteries never discharge to 0%
Alexbn921
Well-known member
I consider 3.3v no load voltage per cell fully discharged and Specialized batteries do. They also charge to 4.16-4.2v which is 100%. Manufactures don't protect batteries from users.
For reference I'm at 42 charge cycles and 877 miles.
I don't
Manc44
Member
By the time 18 years has gone by do you really think you're going to be lugging around a 3 KG battery?
In that time the battery weight should reduce while keeping the same Wh, at least I'd assume it.
In that time the battery weight should reduce while keeping the same Wh, at least I'd assume it.
maker
Member
I read Bosch warranty batteries hold 70%+ of power after 500 charges, and if well looked after should be more like 1,500 charges. I've done about 200 charges (after down to 40% average), 3,000 miles and feels like getting 90% of power I used to.
- Thread starter
- #39
Is there a time limit? Let say after 6 years my Bosch battery shows 70% but only got 475 charges, will i get a new one for free?
Will they say it was within the first 3 years?
Will they sell me one at a 5% discount because it was short by 5%?
Will i be blamed for improper storage?
Teriatric
Active member
DeWalt's new squidgy power tool battery format or something like it may be the next Big Thing, for weight saving if nothing else. Technology advances apace.
5000 miles since June 2019 . 100 plus charges i think ?. Still saying 100 percent health. I tested it about 3 months ago on the same route as i did when i first got it to see the max milage i could get using eco. I got the same milage . I run it down to red occasionally and fully charge most of the time. It would be nice if it lasted another couple of years.
maker
Member
Cyclopath1000
Active member
i've posted on the connector on the shimano bt e8010 detachable battery connector to the male plugs on the bike cracking and the unavailability of a replacement part. so as i decided a while ago that a spare batt is a necessity and because the first battery is now because of the broken connector essentially a paper weight and the bike is 3 years old...that leads me to conclude that plan on buying a new battery every year. $650/year is now my acceptable range seeing that shimano warranty is 2 years. whether or not stealth mounted frame versions are more robust or not remains an open question. how is this any different from a cell phone's lithium ion batt..its NOT. just checked the memory on my commencal meta power shimano e8000 and it reads 3500 miles.Depends on how you look at it , if this is a reasonable expense.
I watched a video on Polini motors and they make things that can be fixed. all ebike stuff needs to be upped to "durable goods" by japanese standards...that used to be 15 years and now i hear 7 yrs. the manufacturer who pushes this goal would be my logical future choice. I dont know it that will happen. Most peeps who post seem to have a rapid turnover in their rides. Out with the new before it breaks. We seem to rarely hear from the next set of owners.
I watched a video on Polini motors and they make things that can be fixed. all ebike stuff needs to be upped to "durable goods" by japanese standards...that used to be 15 years and now i hear 7 yrs. the manufacturer who pushes this goal would be my logical future choice. I dont know it that will happen. Most peeps who post seem to have a rapid turnover in their rides. Out with the new before it breaks. We seem to rarely hear from the next set of owners.
Al-Rider
Member
My Shimano BT-E8010 battery was acting strange. It gave me lower range than usual on a couple of rides and when I started riding it lost the first bar right away. Then once I charged overnight and it didn't reach it's full capacity. I was thinking about buying a new battery when I decided to search "reset battery" and I found a great piece of advice on this forum:
www.emtbforums.com
.
I did a battery reset and strangely enough it really works. All the issues I had went away
Shimano E8000 range - EMTB Forums
Love my 2019 Merida E 160 900E but am concerned a about the range I am getting. Only done a dozen rides, and I can't even get close to Shimano's suggested 100 km range in trail mode. i would be happy with half that. I leave it in trail mode and I do push it pretty hard, trying to go as fast as...
www.emtbforums.com
I did a battery reset and strangely enough it really works. All the issues I had went away
michael.kozera
New Dad ! 👶
as an engineer, thats been building batteries basically my whole life, i started building them back when i was a kid, back when we still used ni-cads (nickel-cadmium). i feel like i really want to nerd out here, but ill try and keep it as simple and to the point as i can.
over the decades, between all the hundreds, possibly thousands of batteries ive built that are lithium based. for RC planes, cars, helis, ebikes, power tools, and recently with energy storage, like the batteries i built for solar storage, and even portable power systems. I keep very accurate notes on most my batteries.
lets first define what "good means". in the context that ive seen , "good" means you can still charge to 80% capacity, and still be able to pull 50% of the rated current. 50% of the current is very important because if you have a high load and the voltage drops too low, even if you still have 95% of ur capacity the battery can still trip its BMS and crap out. however generally speaking, the 80% capacity rule usually is followed closely by 50% current.... usually.
next, lets define what a charge cycles is, 1 CS is ,zero to 100 percent discharge and charge. so if u ride from 100% to 50% then charge back up to 100% u have only done a 1/2 a CS.in my experience, 500 used to be the standard AVERAGE, however as of late ( last 5-10 years), ive seen this average go much higher, 1000-2000 charge cycles. in fact with proper battery care, you can go well above 2000CS's.
from what ive seen, the two factors that will determine how long ur battery lasts is heat, and discharge state. Heat, specifically internal cell temperature can absolutely murder a battery in even as little as ONE charge cycles. for example, if you have a battery that is only able to output 30A continuous, but you use it on a 45A load and after 30 mins, the battery internal temperature is like 90C+. that battery has been permanently damaged, and after a load like that i would predict it would only hold 50% of its charge after maybe 10 CS's.
discharge state is much harder to quantify, but basically, leaving a battery below 10% state of charge for prolonged periods will permanently damage the cells. in fact, leaving a battery at 0% ( roughly 2.2v-2.75v per cell) for say a month, will basically permanently kill the battery. the battery can be forcefully " revived" but will get 1/2 of the life out of it moving forward.
as for me, ive killed batteries in the past in 1 CS........ ive also had my galaxy s4-neo cell phone for 12 years now and im still getting 1-2 days of life out of it because ive taken such good care of the battery. one of my ebikes which ive had for 7 years now has over 60,000km's on it and ive charged it approximately 1800 times and the battery still charges 99% of its original capacity. meanwhile my wife which does not follow such a strict battery care resgime, has ridden half the distance i have and but still has charged the battery about the same amount has approx 95% of her battery capacity left.
ive told many friends and family, if you want a battery to last, any battery, do these few easy things:
most important:
-never let the pack internal cell temperature get above 60C (aprox 50C external temp)
-avoid hard discharged for prolonged periods ( ties into the above point)
-never leave a battery below 20%, but if you do go below 20%, make sure to charge it ASAP.
Less important but still makes a difference:
-avoid hard discharge below 0c
-do not leave a battery past 90% state of charge
-do not leave a battery fully charged for months at a time ( 3.6-3.8v is ideal for storage)
-the slower you charge the longer it lasts
-differential heating/cooling, as in if one side of the pack gets hotter from say a heat source, try to keep the pack the same temp throughout.
hope this helps.
cheers.
over the decades, between all the hundreds, possibly thousands of batteries ive built that are lithium based. for RC planes, cars, helis, ebikes, power tools, and recently with energy storage, like the batteries i built for solar storage, and even portable power systems. I keep very accurate notes on most my batteries.
lets first define what "good means". in the context that ive seen , "good" means you can still charge to 80% capacity, and still be able to pull 50% of the rated current. 50% of the current is very important because if you have a high load and the voltage drops too low, even if you still have 95% of ur capacity the battery can still trip its BMS and crap out. however generally speaking, the 80% capacity rule usually is followed closely by 50% current.... usually.
next, lets define what a charge cycles is, 1 CS is ,zero to 100 percent discharge and charge. so if u ride from 100% to 50% then charge back up to 100% u have only done a 1/2 a CS.in my experience, 500 used to be the standard AVERAGE, however as of late ( last 5-10 years), ive seen this average go much higher, 1000-2000 charge cycles. in fact with proper battery care, you can go well above 2000CS's.
from what ive seen, the two factors that will determine how long ur battery lasts is heat, and discharge state. Heat, specifically internal cell temperature can absolutely murder a battery in even as little as ONE charge cycles. for example, if you have a battery that is only able to output 30A continuous, but you use it on a 45A load and after 30 mins, the battery internal temperature is like 90C+. that battery has been permanently damaged, and after a load like that i would predict it would only hold 50% of its charge after maybe 10 CS's.
discharge state is much harder to quantify, but basically, leaving a battery below 10% state of charge for prolonged periods will permanently damage the cells. in fact, leaving a battery at 0% ( roughly 2.2v-2.75v per cell) for say a month, will basically permanently kill the battery. the battery can be forcefully " revived" but will get 1/2 of the life out of it moving forward.
as for me, ive killed batteries in the past in 1 CS........ ive also had my galaxy s4-neo cell phone for 12 years now and im still getting 1-2 days of life out of it because ive taken such good care of the battery. one of my ebikes which ive had for 7 years now has over 60,000km's on it and ive charged it approximately 1800 times and the battery still charges 99% of its original capacity. meanwhile my wife which does not follow such a strict battery care resgime, has ridden half the distance i have and but still has charged the battery about the same amount has approx 95% of her battery capacity left.
ive told many friends and family, if you want a battery to last, any battery, do these few easy things:
most important:
-never let the pack internal cell temperature get above 60C (aprox 50C external temp)
-avoid hard discharged for prolonged periods ( ties into the above point)
-never leave a battery below 20%, but if you do go below 20%, make sure to charge it ASAP.
Less important but still makes a difference:
-avoid hard discharge below 0c
-do not leave a battery past 90% state of charge
-do not leave a battery fully charged for months at a time ( 3.6-3.8v is ideal for storage)
-the slower you charge the longer it lasts
-differential heating/cooling, as in if one side of the pack gets hotter from say a heat source, try to keep the pack the same temp throughout.
hope this helps.
cheers.
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Expensive replacing an e bike i hope i get 6 years anyway
Understood most of that not all though. Only issue i would have is with ( dont charge more than ninety percent and dont use below twenty ) . So were losing a third of the battery really . Sooner i can get a 1000 battery the better i like a four hour cycle occasionally.
- Thread starter
- #47
I am sure you did help a few people. I have a 500Wh on my Ebike and in our cold months in Quebec i make sure it is charged 100% to give me 2.5 Hrs of fun each morning. Maybe in june i will try to charge up to 85-90% to get my morning ride. It seems my habit of recharging is a positive. Without a car i ride daily. I guess owners with over 600Wh have more flexibility than i do on only 500Wh. I often come back with 15-20% left but there is no way i have any clue about temp.
Please if you post again think of probably many of us. We own bikes and we pedal.
The new thing is we recharge and maybe smile more.
1 time my battery would not charge after my morning ride and from what i read it was
simply too cold so after maybe 40 minutes of delay for it to be warmer it did charge.
Calsun
New Member
1000 charge cycles is not an extreme number for lithium based batteries if that is what is used. But there is no way to know how individuals will charge their bike batteries. Big difference if someone recharged each night as compared to someone who lets their battery get down to 20% SOC and then charges it. Using a 4 amp charger instead of a 2 amp one is likely to reduce battery life to some degree.
There are also charge controlling solid state devices encased in the "battery" along with individual cells and these can fail at any time and reduce battery capacity or disable it completely. When cell starts to fail the charge time will be reduced as there is less total charge needed with the reduced capacity. It is like having a big dent in a gas tank and finding that it is faster to fill it at the pumps.
There are also charge controlling solid state devices encased in the "battery" along with individual cells and these can fail at any time and reduce battery capacity or disable it completely. When cell starts to fail the charge time will be reduced as there is less total charge needed with the reduced capacity. It is like having a big dent in a gas tank and finding that it is faster to fill it at the pumps.
michael.kozera
New Dad ! 👶
the charging above 90% is actually not that impactful really. but going below 20% and keeping it below 20% is very VERY bad. i would say its probably x10 worse.
also, going below 20% isint that bad as long as you charge it up past 20% soon. leaving it at less then 20% is very bad. i like to think of it as a time thing, the time you spend below 20% = amount of damage.
I am sure you did help a few people. I have a 500Wh on my Ebike and in our cold months in Quebec i make sure it is charged 100% to give me 2.5 Hrs of fun each morning. Maybe in june i will try to charge up to 85-90% to get my morning ride. It seems my habit of recharging is a positive. Without a car i ride daily. I guess owners with over 600Wh have more flexibility than i do on only 500Wh. I often come back with 15-20% left but there is no way i have any clue about temp.
Please if you post again think of probably many of us. We own bikes and we pedal.
The new thing is we recharge and maybe smile more.
1 time my battery would not charge after my morning ride and from what i read it was
simply too cold so after maybe 40 minutes of delay for it to be warmer it did charge.
i will charge up to 50-70% to store the battery ( like if im not using it for a week or longer). but the day before, or a few hours before i leave on a ride i will charge to 100%, sometimes i will even over charge to 105% (4.25-4.3v per cell) depending on the length of ride. and i regularly go below 20% but will charge it back to 3.6-3.8v per cell as soon as i get back from a ride.
i live in calgary alberta, and yes i too ride regularly in cold temperatures as do you in Quebec.
as for the flexibility aspect. i have a 1300whr pack on one of my ebikes, i also have a 700whr custom water bottle range extender, and i will say, the larger pack is much easier to keep the temps down, and to keep it above 20%.
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Not so bad then if it goes below 20 it would be charged few hours later . At worst next day .
michael.kozera
New Dad ! 👶
correct. from what ive seen if ur at say 10-20 % , your ok for like a week. but should still charge it up asap.
at say 0-5% i would say your good for a few hours, max 24hrs max.
it also depends on the BMS u use, and the types of cells. for example some BMS's/controllers go as low as 2.55v/cell while others go to 3v/cell. so both batteries can be reading you 0% charge. however one battery could be significantly lower then the other.
also, for example. the LG mj1 (3500mah) say you can go as low as 2.5v/cell while the samsung 35E (3500mah) says you can go only as low as 2.65v/cell.
when i say 0% im referring to 2.6v per cell because if you look at most manufacturer cell specs, most state 2.5-2.75v per cell = 0%
i have noticed in the last 5 years or so, that most BMS's now cut off sooner, at like 2.85-3v per cell. probably to avoid excessive damage/wear on the cells. this become very obvious if you charge most modern batteries from 100% to 0%. ull never get the full mah capacity out of them.
even my 1300wh pack i built, the BMS cuts out at 2.75v per cell and im only able to charge/ discharge 1230whr
interestingly. almost all power tool batteries only have 75% of their stated capacity. as most power tool batteries will not charge past 4.1V/cell (90%) and will not discharge below 2.9v/cell (15%). most likely, the engineers want these high output tool batteries to last longer. go figure.
- Thread starter
- #52
As soon as i get home i charge for my next ride so it seems i have good habits. My system is a 2021 Yamaha/Giant and i trust them but i am trying to learn. Thank you so much.
michael.kozera
New Dad ! 👶
yeah perfect.
i would say give it a 30 mins or so rest when you get home, just to have the battery pack completely cool off and normalize before you start to charge it. thats what i usually do.
Blimey..! Maybe your overanalysing this. I think you’ll sell the bike before it becomes an issue.
I think by the time you need a new battery the whole thing will look like triggers broom, and by that time it will have served you well. As Gary said, factor in a new battery at 5 years if your worried about it. Then you’ve got 2, good for bike park laps..!
Other niff naff and trivia, none electrical related are going to be your main cost
I think by the time you need a new battery the whole thing will look like triggers broom, and by that time it will have served you well. As Gary said, factor in a new battery at 5 years if your worried about it. Then you’ve got 2, good for bike park laps..!
Other niff naff and trivia, none electrical related are going to be your main cost
yup, I think I fried a battery in the alps plugging it straight in after a brutal turbo climb. Spesh swapped it straight out though.
Yes well you may be right . On motor im on 3rd all warranty battery cable 3 as well . Lost count of chains , brake pads , chainrings etc . Levo i got has went up 2 grand if you pay full whack. Maintenance may be relevant to twice the amount of miles done. But if you have to pay for a motor every year thats a sore one. I would probably down grade bike in a few years but maybe not. Reliability should change maybe a bigger battery in a couple of years who knowsBlimey..! Maybe your overanalysing this. I think you’ll sell the bike before it becomes an issue.
I think by the time you need a new battery the whole thing will look like triggers broom, and by that time it will have served you well. As Gary said, factor in a new battery at 5 years if your worried about it. Then you’ve got 2, good for bike park laps..!
Other niff naff and trivia, none electrical related are going to be your main cost
MountainBoy
Active member
Modern Li-Ion batteries do have an incredibly long service life but only if they are charged and discharged within a relatively narrow temperature band. A lot of people here are focusing on depth of discharge and upper charge limit. But these things should be managed by the BMS. State of charge when stored is an important user-controlled variable. The temperature of the battery when it is charged and, to a lessor degree, when it is discharged, is more important because the manufacturer has no control over that.
1) Batteries prefer long-term storage cold (32-50 degrees F) and at moderate states of charge. If a battery is put into storage for 6 months at 70% state-of-charge and the temperature is maintained at 40 degrees F, it will be better off than if it's stored all winter at 70 degrees F.
2) Batteries despise being charged when they are still cold inside. It can take hours at room temperature for them to warm up.
3) Batteries despise being charged when they are still warm inside (like right after a ride on a warm, sunny day).
4) Batteries don't like to be run to zero often. The manufacturer does control where they put "zero" in terms of actual state-of-charge but there is competitive pressure to put it as low as they dare because this increases the available range users will report.
5) The story with charging to 100% mirrors #4 above. The manufacturer determines where "100%" is but is pressured by the market to make it as high as they dare. The user can really negatively impact their battery life by charging to 100% and storing their battery in a warm area when they go on vacation.
The fact is, there is a lot a user can do to ensure a long battery life. An advanced electric car like a Tesla uses a glycol thermal fluid that circulates around the cells to manage temperatures within an ideal range. This explains why Tesla batteries last so long and battery life continues to increase through the years as these thermal management systems and the software that runs them is constantly developed and updated in ways that make them more effective. This would be weight and cost prohibitive on bicycles so the user must take on some of these functions if they want great battery life.
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MountainBoy
Active member
It could be illness or major surgery, seasonal travel for work, or a vacation home that is only visited seasonally. Most people are not going to store their e-bike for that long but, if it's necessary, it pays to know how to best do it.
Suppose so i would crawl up the wall if i didn't gett out on bike for two weeks.
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