Avinox launch 1500w M2S motor and cheaper M2 motor
- Thread starter Rob Rides EMTB
- Start date
AIInteresting video from Will comparing 150nm/1500w with 120nm/1000w and 100nm/750w
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CarolinaCrawler
Active member
I know a couple guys that swapped the older AXS (non-T type) on DH bikes. They swapped cages from a GX dh derailleur and since the GX DH stuff is based off of SRAM 11 speed the shifting can be adjusted very close.
Pentti
New Member
Just to confirm on this thread that the new XX DH Transmission 7-speed cassette & derailleur fit and work on Amflow including Smoothshift. Gear indicator works also as that is a calculation of cadence & speed, just tell the software it's an Eagle 12-speed (same ratios 6-12 = 10-24T) and it shows gears 1-7 as 6-12 (same as before but without the first five big cogs).
Not sure if this insides are posted before ? The Vertrider Big Mountain AMFLOW PX L Project – Tech Review (Real World Alpine Use) – Christophmalin.com its very indeep from an vertrider from Insbruck.
Xavi ox don’t give a shit about trail access…..Bureaucrats don’t see ‘dialing back the power’ as an option….. but instead will handle this by nixing access for e-bikes entirely- as that action is far easier to do than try manage the shades of grey
Loamranger
Active member
Very thorough review, this sets the standard for reviews that others should follow.
As regards play with standard headset cups, I am advising my friend who has a PX in XL on the way, to go -0.5, same as Rob Rides has his set I believe? Rob, have you detected any play with the slacker headset cups?
Thanks.
Hard to believe what's available now. Only thing for me, are they more bike than I can really use?
I have no play and use the 0,5
Red Peekay
Active member
An interesting article around a poll Bike Radar did on the levels of power being touted by motor manufacturers today.
What is interesting is how persistent the "too much power" notion or argument is in the general thinking and arguing for limits and less power.
The major concept that seems to sully and taint this field is the idea that more power = more speed. Which it does not. As they say, these motors are speed limited, and even those that are geo "unlocked" for more speed are only adding 10kph...
The major benefit of the power is in enabling the rider to better deal with difficult climbs and terrain. Which I can personally attest to, makes these bikes safer. I wouldn't have stalled and tipped off my lower power, old school modified 26'er, on a steep climbing hairpin uptrack.
The M2S would have powered me up and I would have saved myself a trip to the ED... and a broken arm.
So I'm all for a motor that will enable me to climb better and more safely deal with all that gnarl that I often have to get over.
www.bikeradar.com
What is interesting is how persistent the "too much power" notion or argument is in the general thinking and arguing for limits and less power.
The major concept that seems to sully and taint this field is the idea that more power = more speed. Which it does not. As they say, these motors are speed limited, and even those that are geo "unlocked" for more speed are only adding 10kph...
The major benefit of the power is in enabling the rider to better deal with difficult climbs and terrain. Which I can personally attest to, makes these bikes safer. I wouldn't have stalled and tipped off my lower power, old school modified 26'er, on a steep climbing hairpin uptrack.
The M2S would have powered me up and I would have saved myself a trip to the ED... and a broken arm.
So I'm all for a motor that will enable me to climb better and more safely deal with all that gnarl that I often have to get over.
Should ebike motor power be capped? See the results of our readers' poll and Avinox's response | BikeRadar
The results from our recent poll on ebike peak power are in
www.bikeradar.com
This is the problem. EMTB comes from the MTB background, and MTB riders don't understand this challenge of wanting to climb the most technical terrain. They have this entrenched notion that Technical MTB riding is only about descending technical trails.
This is what riding an Avinox Motored EMTB has done for me. I no longer look for the most challenging trails to descend. But trails that will also challenge me when climbing back up. And climbing these trails is rarely about speed. But about, not having to dab a foot.
This brings us to the biggest problem. People only see the world through what is important to them. And MTB riders think over 1000 watts of peak power is useless to them. And it probably is. But for those wanting the climb to challenge them as much as the descent. It makes a world of difference.
TheSnowShark
Well-known member
Red Peekay
Active member
Absolutely. The motor can most certainly allow an average fitness rider sustain a higher speed for longer, but... only to the speed the motor is governed to. Most fit road riders and gravel riders can hold and exceed those speeds on their analogue bikes. We don't hear people squealing they should be banned.
At the end of the day, a regular OEM emtb out of the factory, without a throttle, will only ever exceed the governed speed, which in many countries is 25kph, if the rider is able to manually make it happen.
So I find it frustrating that everyone keeps carrying on about the excessive amount of power these motors are now capable of.
That does not translate into hordes of mtb'ers tearing around our trails at break neck speeds.
DirkWisely
Well-known member
I think it's silly to argue that it doesn't enable faster speeds. But you're also right that the reality isn't people zooming up hills at breakneck speeds. It's only remotely a problem at blind corners and such, but that's already a problem for riders going downhill, and everybody should be slowing down and being aware in those situations regardless.
action99
New Member
Same here, middle of the Swiss Alps, single trails starting from my home that goes up 1600m, having equal fun climbing as descending, trying to clear sections, avoid pushing and use less feet as possible. I also truly enjoy exploring new trails as we have so many here.
Coming from a 85nm / 600w bike the M2s power makes quite a difference, what stands out is that is power that can really be used, I have less wheelspin with 130nm/1300 than my old 85nm/600.
I'm sure the drive train will have a lot of wear, I rater change the drive train more often but having incredible fun climbing that saving parts but forced to push or even worse for me taking fire roads (I'm sure I'm allergic to those
)Everybody is different and ride different stuff and I'm sure that many they don't need this power, but these new e-bikes open up new possibilities for me that I truly enjoy.
Now I just need MacAskill skills and there will be no limits where I can go
Str1fe
New Member
Pro e-enduro World Cup riders are limited to 750W. Watching them on power stages, it’s crazy how much they can do. So why do so many people want 1200 or 1500W? Most riders, even pros, can’t really use that kind of power.
At some point, it’s not about rules. Bikes still have cranks, and when you’re pedaling, there’s only so much space under the bike. Too much power just becomes unmanageable on technical climbs because you risk hitting rocks or the ground. That’s why motorbikes don’t have cranks.
High-powered motors also shift the focus from the bike to the “e”.
I’ve tested the Avinox, it’s really great. But pushing the numbers that high doesn’t make sense. Nobody really needs it. You can argue all you want, but it’s mostly self-deception. You simply cannot handle +1000 watts in a real technical climb. It will spin out, pop the front wheel, and become uncontrollable. It’s pure delusion.
The only riders I hear saying they need that much power are average riders. Skilled riders and pros will tell you the opposite, which is pretty strange when you think about it: it’s the less skilled riders trying to tell you what’s best.
Not false
. But that would mean these guy will be unable to use this powerful. That would mean in fact, that will not have any problems for the EMTB futur 
.They are limited because of fair conditions for all - also some competitors in the e-bike motor business cant deliver more than 750W without derating for long . . . .
Pro e-enduro World Cup riders can easily handle more than 750W max. . . .
I think the biggest issue we face with 1KW+ emtbs is getting lumped in with the Surron/balaclava brigade when authorites eventually seek to clamp down on them. It won't be the emtbers who fuck things up, it will be them but we will pay the price.
InRustWeTrust
E*POWAH Master
I have some friends who have gotten bikes with the Avinox motor and I have a Bosch CX 4 and there's no way I won't be able to keep up with them.
action99
New Member
Then I must be much better than pros
spoiler: of course I'm much worse. Btw the challenge is not the watts but is the torque. Anyone can use 1300w, a steep fire road can be ridden by anyone with some ok skills.
As the app can show what max torque I use, yesterday ride: max motor torque 127nm (so basically the max as I did not use boost), rider+motor max torque 203nm for a max gradient of 28%. App does not show the max watts.
So an average joe like me can use 130nm to climb steep tech sections.
A short burst of 1300 watts, which the Avinox Motor can deliver, can be the difference between walking your bike up a climb, and riding it up. I prefer to ride.
Yes. It requires practice and skill to use it confidently. But I use it regularly.
It's a new way of tackling a climb. Learning to use the overrun, when you cannot take a pedal stroke, is a skill that you must train to use. Just as learning which peak power level to use, for different sections, is also another puzzle you need to solve by practicing.
If you don't think you need, or can use the power effectively. Don't get an Avinox Motor. But the Motor System is 100% EN15194 compliant. So many choose to have it.
I mean obviously in some situations additional power is going to allow you to climb steeper terrain. There's a reason that in hard enduro those MX bikes have 55 horsepower.
I'm not denying that it's usable in some situations. The issue is that we have to keep bicycles separate from motorcycles and at some point we have to draw a line in the sand and say 'this is the max amount of power that a bicycle can have', and still be a bicycle on bicycle trails. Be exempt from licensing, registration and so on.
I'm not denying that it's usable in some situations. The issue is that we have to keep bicycles separate from motorcycles and at some point we have to draw a line in the sand and say 'this is the max amount of power that a bicycle can have', and still be a bicycle on bicycle trails. Be exempt from licensing, registration and so on.
The laws are clear. EN15194 compliance.
That is :
No throttle.
250 watts rated motor
25kph limited.
It's the same for all EBikes in Europe and Oceania. And The Avinox System complies. I'm so tired of going down this rabbit hole. Get it through your head. The Motor System is compliant as a Pedal Assist bike, same as all the other EN15194 compliant EMTBs. It's just capable of higher short bursts of power.
If the US has a problem. That is a regional issue for the US. Not Avinox.
sethimus
😠 Donald Duck 😠
they have many many problems
bmwpowere36m3
Member
Like it or not... there's a lot of attention surrounding the power numbers. Good or bad. The 250W EU rule is old and leaves the door open for unregulated peak power. Some would argue that's for the good. Others believe there should be a cap.
Its not crazy to think that regulators or politicians or law makers may start asking questions (since they are not experts or knowledgable about ebikes, motor systems, etc...), like "how is it we have a 250W rating law, but bikes are marketed at 1000+W ebikes". I think its easy for them to point a finger at issues/accidents, associate power with speed and youth with the PROBLEM.
I see the appeal and situations when more power can be fun and useful. At the same time, we "want are cake and eat it too" as we say. As its been asked and said, at what point are we [ebikes] no longer a bicycle AND enjoy the benefits of access that a bicycles offers.
I think the high assist ratios are a big problem and deliver an experience were the pedals become throttles and don't require much effort to go any speed frankly. You don't have to put in a lot of effort to unlock the full capability of these motors. ~200W at 800% to achieve 1500W isn't all that much effort to be fair.
When I'm climbing some shorter, heinous climbs on my CX... I'm putting in 400-500W, with peaks at 700W. I'm talking a climb I'd hike-a-bike on normally, cause I'd be smoked very quickly.
I don't want to be a gatekeeper, but if we kept assist level low... 300-400%, then only more experienced and fit riders could unlock the uper echolons of power. Those same folks, are likely ones to not cause issues either.
At the end of the day, it is the eMotos and fake Class II ebikes being operating on public roads by mostly the youth that are drawing 99% of the bad attention to us mountain bikers.
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I’m in the Swiss Jura mountains. Not Alps Swiss, but from home to the highest peak, it’s around 1000m D+. I have an old Bosch Gen2 trek powerfly. Last year I tested and climbed with the Amflow PL and it was incredibly fun! So yes, I fully agree that 1500w and a lot of torque are very enjoyable in this context.Same here, middle of the Swiss Alps, single trails starting from my home that goes up 1600m, having equal fun climbing as descending, trying to clear sections, avoid pushing and use less feet as possible. I also truly enjoy exploring new trails as we have so many here.
Coming from a 85nm / 600w bike the M2s power makes quite a difference, what stands out is that is power that can really be used, I have less wheelspin with 130nm/1300 than my old 85nm/600.
I'm sure the drive train will have a lot of wear, I rater change the drive train more often but having incredible fun climbing that saving parts but forced to push or even worse for me taking fire roads (I'm sure I'm allergic to those
Everybody is different and ride different stuff and I'm sure that many they don't need this power, but these new e-bikes open up new possibilities for me that I truly enjoy.
Now I just need MacAskill skills and there will be no limits where I can go
(And the story of too much power is bullshit. Whether people go up to 10 or 25km, it doesn't bother hikers and cows, it doesn't prevent people from going down to 70km h, electric or muscular... the problem is not technology but people's common sense.)
Trek-Rail-eBike
Active member
I'm yet to find a hill I cannot ride up with my Bosch Gen 4 (85Nm and 750w)
The Bike Park Wales ebike climb is technical and reaches 33% in some points, along with tight switch-backs over large roots. Turbo mode is already too much for these, practice and technique matters more.
Feels to me, hills that I couldn't get up would be unrideable anyway. e.g. one section of Snowdon Llanberis path up is push up regardless of the bike you're on.
For sure, if I had a M2 / M2S motor it would be possible to use higher power on some of the straighter up sections meaning an overall quicker time up, but that has the consequence of using more battery, so reducing the overall possible range, on bikes with a fixed in battery (majority of them) is less than ideal.
Also, at some of the smaller Bike Parks (FoD, Flyup 417, WindHill) i'm towing my son (65kg) up the climb on his 18Kg DH bike with zero issues.
So for me, upgrading to a bike with one of these new M2 motors is chasing a numbers one up game, rather than adding any value.
The Bike Park Wales ebike climb is technical and reaches 33% in some points, along with tight switch-backs over large roots. Turbo mode is already too much for these, practice and technique matters more.
Feels to me, hills that I couldn't get up would be unrideable anyway. e.g. one section of Snowdon Llanberis path up is push up regardless of the bike you're on.
For sure, if I had a M2 / M2S motor it would be possible to use higher power on some of the straighter up sections meaning an overall quicker time up, but that has the consequence of using more battery, so reducing the overall possible range, on bikes with a fixed in battery (majority of them) is less than ideal.
Also, at some of the smaller Bike Parks (FoD, Flyup 417, WindHill) i'm towing my son (65kg) up the climb on his 18Kg DH bike with zero issues.
So for me, upgrading to a bike with one of these new M2 motors is chasing a numbers one up game, rather than adding any value.
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