Joecrow
Active member
See my earlier post here, nearly at the bottom of page 11.
120 Nm update for the Bosch CX and CX Race Announced
- Thread starter knut7
- Start date
Joecrow
Active member
Why would it be, the phase 1 part of update is identical?
It's also just fractionally more energy dense. People really are chasing incremental gains at this point.
I do think that 700wh is an ideal size/ range/ weight for a 750w e-bike battery however. A real sweet spot.
The M2s needs a 1000+ wh battery due to its Class 3 power levels imo.
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Keep in mind the Bosch is only 120nm to 9.3mph and the Avinox is full 120nm the whole time. So the 700wh is pretty much as efficient as the 800wh bosch, or extremely close. These riders also said the avinox was more assistance or an easier ride/climbing so it’s using more battery. That could be tuned down to match Bosch for even more efficiency, so I’d bet at the end of a ride the efficiency difference between the two if truly set to the same settings would be negligible.
So, pretty awesome you can have the 700wh, save 1.7lbs and still get close to the same efficiency as the Bosch 800wh. BUT if you have the Avinox you probably wouldn’t tune it down to match the Bosch, so would be more like the test for most people.
The 120 Nm are a short boost for a few seconds initiated by a sharp rise in rider power but can be used several times back to back.
The 600 % support are only up to 9.3 mph.
Unfortunately, these guys do what they have done before and quit the test at the most critical moment, resulting in the data being mostly useless.
As I commented before, they need to run each battery down till it quits providing the requested assistance, and then calculate a watts used per mile/ foot/ whatever.
The motors have different strategies for how they use the last watts or what they even show. In the past the Avinox batteries quit providing power at 5% where-as Bosch provided power till 0% just because Bosch was not counting the true last 5%, needed for battery protection, in the percent that was left.
Of course, equalizing the bike/ rider weights, tires and pressure, swapping riders 50% through, etc. are also important parts of creating a valuable back-to-back efficiency test.
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Of course. I don’t think it’s good to ride your battery below 10%, or at least I never do. So I don’t blame them for not going to 0%. It’s not a perfect test at all. I’d be interested to see a lab test with the settings actually the same (or as similar as possible) regarding continuous nm, and assistance levels. I’d bet the efficiency would be even closer between the two.
It’s just pretty sick how close it is even on a non-perfect test. If you can get close to same efficiency with 1.7lbs less battery weight I’ll take it.
bmwpowere36m3
Member
IMO there isn't a statistically significant difference in actual efficiency between current generation full power drive systems. What we see in systems like the Avinox with higher assist and power are folks who generally leave those same systems at higher power/assist settings and end up consuming energy at a higher rate.
Now the weight savings is great, because you can have the weight closer to 600 wH battery and with more energy.
Bogdan_CH
Active member
... only they are not.
at 16:30 , Will is a 7% in limp mode , so the situation where yo hope to get back to your car / home as pedaling non assited or in limp is like dragging an anchor after 1 - 2 hours in boost .
Sam on the Mondy still has 16% so another lap for sure.
In a recent ride I rode the 600wh battery down to 4% (don't recommended but was in a safe spot so had to test it) and was still pushing 100% with no intentions to drop down.
Very true.
Joecrow
Active member
How did this dumb apples vs oranges comparison get into a thread about a Bosch update?
Idk bro it is a video about the 120nm update and efficiency…. You guys have 12 pages on an update along with individual threads for just about every Bosch bike asking when the update is available. Is it not cool to talk/compare the update? My bad brotha.
Joecrow
Active member
The update yes, but comparing a 700W to a 800W battery has nothing to do with the update, 2 bikes with most things equal and what a big surprise, when the 700W battery had run out the 800 W still had 10% capacity. Wow real rocket science that!
Dude I didn’t bring up the 700wh batteries in this thread. You guys were already talking about it and I came across a battery and update comparison… Are you guys ok? This is like the most sensitive bunch.The update yes, but comparing a 700W to a 800W battery has nothing to do with the update, 2 bikes with most things equal and what a big surprise, when the 700W battery had run out the 800 W still had 10% capacity. Wow real rocket science that!
Joecrow
Active member
Not me sunshine, I would never try and compare Avinox with a 700W battery with a Bosch CX with an 800W one. Nothing to do with sensitivity it just makes no sense but I suppose it is a bit tough to find any Avinox threads on this forum where you could post.
ebsocalmtb
Well-known member
Just throwing this out there... I have a bullit with 2,800 miles on it and I ride the bike down under 10% battery remaining at least a handful of times a month. Shit... It's not rare for me to ride the bike until dead and then pedal a completely off ebike for 300-500' of vert and 4-5 miles back to my car or home (yes it sucks, and yes it also builds character). I am careful of how I store my bike (always between 30-60%) but I am not careful on how I drain it while riding it.
I have a buddy whom is paranoid about not draining it, same bike, same weight as me more or less and aggression level. After 13 months of harsh abuse on both our bikes there (my bike has an extra 1k miles on it then his does) there is no noticeable battery degradation on my bike vs his.
Suffice to say, live a little and run the bike dead from time to time and don't worry about it. I look at it this way... I'll likely burn through 3 full transmission drivetrains while owning this bike. If I'm lucky, I will only go through 1.5 motors and battery. 1 year in, I've already gone through 1,100 dollars in brake pads and tires. I'm not afraid of smoking a 1,000-1,200 dollar battery. Besides... I don't ride my 450 worrying about having to do the top end on it... with enough enjoyment and abuse, failure is inevitable.
I have a buddy whom is paranoid about not draining it, same bike, same weight as me more or less and aggression level. After 13 months of harsh abuse on both our bikes there (my bike has an extra 1k miles on it then his does) there is no noticeable battery degradation on my bike vs his.
Suffice to say, live a little and run the bike dead from time to time and don't worry about it. I look at it this way... I'll likely burn through 3 full transmission drivetrains while owning this bike. If I'm lucky, I will only go through 1.5 motors and battery. 1 year in, I've already gone through 1,100 dollars in brake pads and tires. I'm not afraid of smoking a 1,000-1,200 dollar battery. Besides... I don't ride my 450 worrying about having to do the top end on it... with enough enjoyment and abuse, failure is inevitable.
Plummet
Flash Git
Yep, +1 to that.
I ride my bikes like i stole em. The last 4 battery drains 3 have been below 10% left at the end. I also charge em fully to 100% and just dont care. When the batteries get tired ill buy more or sell the whole bike and buy another bike.
I'm into e bikes for MORE down. Drive train wear, tire wear battery degradation, motor failure be damned.
On my death bed when im about to take my last breath i sure as hell wont be thinking i sure with i regret not depleated those batteries so fully... or regret not only charging them to 80%.
Faaaark that.
Bosch is not showing you about the last 5% of the charge to protect the battery. So when the Bosch says it has 0% on the screen it actually has 5%. Which is why it has full power all the way to 0% on the display.
I don't believe Avinox does this because they typically derate at 5% showing.
Plummet
Flash Git
Bosch definitely doesnt have full power to zero. It tapers off as voltage drops and amperage increases. Sub 20 there is a noticable drop in boost settings, Sub 10 there sweet fa difference between 70nm and 120nm.
Though bosch isnt actively derating its simply physics. Batteries of lower voltage give less power output to motors.....
InRustWeTrust
E*POWAH Master
have a Bosch CX 4 and can't really feel any difference at 600%, so this update was completely useless.
did you move Assistance slider to max (+5)?. 600% is available only in EMTB+ and Turbo and you need to max out the Assistance to +5
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You mean 25kph - 15 mph? I have the update and it feels very very similar to the 100nm setting. Without looking at the app or doing timing runs I would not know. Although if as people have said they would exceed 750w if they had it at high cadence. My test were fast uphill so that would explain why it did not feel different.Yes you're right, I saw that velomotion graph later. I'm trying to get my head around how that will feel in practice when riding around the 15 kph mark
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No, he means 15 kph.
Bosch has stated that the 600 % support are only available up to 15 kph. Above that the support drops back to 400 %.
Testing this on a long uphill while switching back and forth between eMTB (max. 400 %) and eMTB+ (max. 600 %) at about 14.5 kph and cadence 75 I could see my rider power dropping from 115 W to 80 W which is the difference between 400 and 600 %. When I then raised my cadence just enough to get to 15.5 kph the rider input showed 110 W in eMTB+. But it didn't feel that much. I believe this is due to other factors coming to play: The 120 Nm boost effect and the extended boost both compensate for the drop in support.
So for the intended purpose, helping to manage technical uphills at speeds below 15 kph the 600 % are great, but for those who want to zoom up a smooth road at 25 kph with less effort this doesn't work.
Mario Antony
Active member
The only issue with flat battery, is carrying the fat ass up to the car.
InRustWeTrust
E*POWAH Master
Yeah, I've used the eMTB+ mode and even tried dragging the assistance slider to the maximum, but I still don't feel any direct difference.
Rando_12345
E*POWAH Master
I wouldn't say I feel much of a difference, but I did notice that on very steep fireroads I seem to be climbing at 15kph. So while you don't necessarily feel this huge boost off the line, your legs will naturally give enough power to get to 15kph, with relatively low effort, but you would need to conciously put in a lot more effort to break that speed barrier on very steep stuff.
ValActionT 750
Member
Have you played with the assist metrics that's available with the app? Also clicking to tour, shifting down and using your own leg power. There is almost always a way to compensate. ;-pNice, hopefully this power doesnt cause the motor to blow up thoughPutting everything at max for turbo, motor overrun control is nice, hopefully it will make the feeling a bit less on/off, I feel like even at my 85nm emtb mode the bike becomes sometimes hard to control with technical climbs.
Mojo_n_SB
Member
I can barley feel the upgrade to 120nm. On trails the motor is great (Santa Cruz Bullit) . Riding the streets to get to a trail is where the Bosch motor under performs to the Avinox. My buddies Avinox gives free raw power. Once on the trail, both are good. Easy winner here. My vote is for Bosch to make some real changes please or lose $$/customers
The 600% assistance gives you a little kick when you first start to ride from standing still. That's it.
The 120nm doesn't do anything.
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