🔋 Semi-Solid-State batteries revolution!

A solid state battery was initially described as having a Li-metal anode and solid electrolyte. It was imagined reaching a gravimetric energy density of 800 Wh/kg or more. I can see no indication of Donut having built what we initially understood as a solid state battery. The density seems to low. Also, based on the dendrite build-up issue of the Li-metal anode, the cycle-life seems too high, even if the issue is solved. I don't believe they've solved the Li-metal anode.

But it seems the solid state definition has changed. An NMC battery could be built with a solid electrolyte. It wouldn't improve the energy density much, and we'd call it a semi solid-state cell. But it seems everything with a solid electrolyte can be called solid-state these days. Being able to mass produce an ss-battery gives much publicity, even if the solid state definition has been watered down.

The hybrid supercapacitor idea and the sciencedirect article is interesting. The combination of energydensity and powerdensity claimed by Donut is much higher than anything shown publicly so far. It would be cool if this is real. But such claims usually turn out to be exaggerated when the final product appears. Could it be they're just listing theoretical limits of their technology that can't actually be acheived in combination? Is this just the data for the chemistry, and the densities are lower on cell level? Hoping it's real thougo
Interesting contribution. I share your view that none of these questions can be answered through a CEO interview or YouTube commentaries by others.

Once again: YouTube channels without solid links to reliable sources are not reliable themselves: they’re marketing or entertainment at best. They might introduce us to topics we didn’t know about, but it’s up to us to investigate further using primary sources (assuming we have the time and the necessary expertise).

As Carl Sagan said: “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.”
 
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Lol, the Electric viking, one of those yt channels that adds nothing new and just re words other peoples/companies info.

re donut lab SS battery, my skepticism is making way for some optimism.....
Long vid but worth the full watch.

She looked at the legitimacy of the SS battery without mentioning that the same guy claimed to have invented a Super AI technology last year that would completely revolutionize the AI industry. It seems very relevant to me.
 
I just see no reason not to just be optimistic and wait and see. All it costs is disappointment.

If it turns out to be lies, then we'll get some fun videos where everybody involved has their entire lives torn down, and we'll be no worse off. If it turns out to be real, then we get to live in an exciting time.
 
I just see no reason not to just be optimistic and wait and see. All it costs is disappointment.

If it turns out to be lies, then we'll get some fun videos where everybody involved has their entire lives torn down, and we'll be no worse off. If it turns out to be real, then we get to live in an exciting time.

We already live in exciting times. My EMTB with a 700 Wh battery already goes so far that I rarely ride it below 30% SOC. My electric cars already drive for hours on the highway without stopping and, when I do stop and plug-in, it's ready to leave before my road break is over. I wake up to an EV ready to go every morning, and it has more miles than I care to drive in a day. After 8 years I have minimal degradation, the batteries will easily go 300,000 miles, longer than I care to own any car.

Sure, batteries will get even better specs as time goes by, maybe my next EMTB will weigh two lbs. less and my EVs will go an extra 100 miles or weigh 200 lbs. less, and last 30 years. None of this will change the way I use the EV in any significant manner. The biggest battery breakthrough would be making the batteries we already have 50% cheaper. That's the one spec this announcement doesn't claim to change, the price.
 
We already live in exciting times. My EMTB with a 700 Wh battery already goes so far that I rarely ride it below 30% SOC. My electric cars already drive for hours on the highway without stopping and, when I do stop and plug-in, it's ready to leave before my road break is over. I wake up to an EV ready to go every morning, and it has more miles than I care to drive in a day. After 8 years I have minimal degradation, the batteries will easily go 300,000 miles, longer than I care to own any car.

Sure, batteries will get even better specs as time goes by, maybe my next EMTB will weigh two lbs. less and my EVs will go an extra 100 miles or weigh 200 lbs. less, and last 30 years. None of this will change the way I use the EV in any significant manner. The biggest battery breakthrough would be making the batteries we already have 50% cheaper. That's the one spec this announcement doesn't claim to change, the price.
EVs would need less cooling, and less mass for the same range. That has a lot of positive knock on effects. The operating temps also would be a huge deal for people in colder climates.
 
We already live in exciting times. My EMTB with a 700 Wh battery already goes so far that I rarely ride it below 30% SOC. My electric cars already drive for hours on the highway without stopping and, when I do stop and plug-in, it's ready to leave before my road break is over. I wake up to an EV ready to go every morning, and it has more miles than I care to drive in a day. After 8 years I have minimal degradation, the batteries will easily go 300,000 miles, longer than I care to own any car.

Sure, batteries will get even better specs as time goes by, maybe my next EMTB will weigh two lbs. less and my EVs will go an extra 100 miles or weigh 200 lbs. less, and last 30 years. None of this will change the way I use the EV in any significant manner. The biggest battery breakthrough would be making the batteries we already have 50% cheaper. That's the one spec this announcement doesn't claim to change, the price.
If only everyone had your mindset, especially your side of the pond. We would be moving much faster towards the goal.
 
EVs would need less cooling, and less mass for the same range. That has a lot of positive knock on effects. The operating temps also would be a huge deal for people in colder climates.

Sure, if e-bikes weighed a bit less (or e-cars if we insist on taking about EVs) then that would be great, but I agree with @MountainBoy that I’d like to see more cost taken out of existing battery tech before somebody works out a way to charge even more for something that does a similar job.

My e-bikes (and my EV) already do a perfectly fine job of what I need them to do, but it would’ve been even better if I could have paid less for them.
 
Solid state batteries are a viable solution. With that being said; this technology is a LONG way from mass adoption and production. LI batteries are here for the short term so don’t have the illusion SD batteries are just a few years away in EMTB because they are not.
 
Solid state batteries are a viable solution. With that being said; this technology is a LONG way from mass adoption and production. LI batteries are here for the short term so don’t have the illusion SD batteries are just a few years away in EMTB because they are not.
Do you have at least a valid source (I do not mean some "expert" from Youtube University) for this resolute verdict?

I don’t think anyone here or elsewhere can say in advance how long this technology (or another one) will take to reach the market. I would urge great caution with any predictions about new technologies. Sometimes they arrive earlier than expected (think of LLMs), sometimes they take much longer than experts anticipate (autonomous driving)... and other times they never arrive at all (though an example in this case is, by definition, impossible).
 
Do you have at least a valid source (I do not mean some "expert" from Youtube University) for this resolute verdict?

I don’t think anyone here or elsewhere can say in advance how long this technology (or another one) will take to reach the market. I would urge great caution with any predictions about new technologies. Sometimes they arrive earlier than expected (think of LLMs), sometimes they take much longer than experts anticipate (autonomous driving)... and other times they never arrive at all (though an example in this case is, by definition, impossible).

I tend to agree with @Scott_123 here, for a few reasons.

Nobody is yet making solid state batteries at scale.

When/if they do, it will be a number of years until that is so, and it will be even longer before volume is sufficient and costs come down to a sensible number for bicycle use.

The main benefit for bicycle applications would appear to be slight weight reduction or a higher capacity battery for the same weight, even the fast recharging benefit is marginal unless you’re a bike hire company or running cargo bikes etc. Longer life might be one, but you can bet that will be factored in as a higher price (longer life being a reason to charge more) but with the pace of change in e-Mtb in particular is that such a big benefit?

The other thing that will slow adoption is the e-bike product life cycle, it’s one thing being a boutique bike company that can re-tool every year and sell a small number of high end bikes to make a living, but true market penetration will only come from the ‘big players’ and whilst they’ve invested so much in the current tech I think that will be another reason for slower adoption.

The big battery tech factories around the world are no doubt looking at this as well, but legacy investment and path dependency are in play here, and if it comes to market I think it will likely be in electric vehicles and grid energy storage systems a long time before e-bikes, just because the income will scale quickly to pay back the development.

So no, I’m not an expert, but just my take on the situation after reading the tea leaves in my morning brew, I too think it’s years away. Certainly long enough to buy a couple more current tech bikes anyway, like we need an excuse! 🤪😂
 
I tend to agree with @Scott_123 here, for a few reasons.
Let me clarify. This may surprise you, but if I had to bet, I would also say it will take "many" years. Five. Or ten. Or never. Who knows?

But that is different from saying that it will certainly be so. It is better to always maintain a certain degree of skepticism, in both directions. Complex issues like this are sometimes solved quickly because someone really commits to them and knows how to do it.

Think, for example, of going back to the year before Tesla’s debut: I (and, probably, anyone else here) would have bet that it was impossible to succeed with an electric vehicle (beyond milk deliveries to people’s homes... ). And yet, all of a sudden, it turned into something of a revolution. Because someone (before completely losing any moral and his grip on reality… :rolleyes: ) understood how to design the “right” product and successfully market it, and from there was able to move rapidly toward economies of scale.

So mine is simply an invitation to caution. In every sense.
 
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Think, for example, of going back to the year before Tesla’s debut: I would have bet that for both of us it was impossible to succeed with an electric vehicle (beyond milk deliveries to people’s homes... ). And yet, all of a sudden, it turned into something of a revolution. Because someone (before completely losing any moral and his grip on reality… :rolleyes: ) understood how to design the “right” product and successfully market it, and from there was able to move rapidly toward economies of scale.

The Tesla Roadster launched nearly 20 years ago now, the Model 3 about 10 years after that. Fast forward to today and whilst things are moving forward it’s still early days for EV penetration, Norway excepted.

That’s with arguably a visionary at the helm with almost limitless resources, but yes they’re making a profit now. But yes, years is the right measure.

It couldn’t have happened with e-bikes, it’s a sector that definitely seems to survive on the crumbs that fall from the bigger table.

My feeling is If solid state batteries take off big time in EVs and grid energy storage, then e-bikes may follow, but not sure that will happen quickly.

I’ll be more than happy if I’m wrong, but I won’t be delaying a purchase based on what may be coming. 👍
 
@Fangs2k : I largely agree with your analysis. But the example of Tesla and the attention it managed to generate worldwide interest on EV was just that, an example (and electric vehicle sales have been steadily increasing almost everywhere since then, whatever people may say).

But once again, saying this "couldn’t have happened with e-bikes” seems risky to me. You can’t know whether, for instance, in some Chinese laboratory (the US is now essentially committing suicide...), generously funded by the government, they might not be developing a disruptive technology that will have an enormous impact, sold at artificially low prices to secure a net gain in a short time.

Once again, I’m not saying that this is the case. I’m saying that we are not very good at predicting the future, and that it sometimes hides surprises (which we often tend to forget about).
 
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Once again, I’m not saying that this is the case. I’m saying that we are not very good at predicting the future, and that it sometimes hides surprises (which we often tend to forget about).

Understood, and agree with you.

I’m a long time EV driver, got my first in 2014 and had loved owning and driving them ever since.

People have been saying ‘wait for solid state batteries, they’ll be here soon’ in all that time. I’m still waiting! 😃

I’m not a Luddite, happy for any positive developments in battery tech (see what I did there?!) but I’m also realistic.
 
I tend to agree with @Scott_123 here, for a few reasons.

Nobody is yet making solid state batteries at scale.

When/if they do, it will be a number of years until that is so, and it will be even longer before volume is sufficient and costs come down to a sensible number for bicycle use.

The main benefit for bicycle applications would appear to be slight weight reduction or a higher capacity battery for the same weight, even the fast recharging benefit is marginal unless you’re a bike hire company or running cargo bikes etc. Longer life might be one, but you can bet that will be factored in as a higher price (longer life being a reason to charge more) but with the pace of change in e-Mtb in particular is that such a big benefit?

The other thing that will slow adoption is the e-bike product life cycle, it’s one thing being a boutique bike company that can re-tool every year and sell a small number of high end bikes to make a living, but true market penetration will only come from the ‘big players’ and whilst they’ve invested so much in the current tech I think that will be another reason for slower adoption.

The big battery tech factories around the world are no doubt looking at this as well, but legacy investment and path dependency are in play here, and if it comes to market I think it will likely be in electric vehicles and grid energy storage systems a long time before e-bikes, just because the income will scale quickly to pay back the development.

So no, I’m not an expert, but just my take on the situation after reading the tea leaves in my morning brew, I too think it’s years away. Certainly long enough to buy a couple more current tech bikes anyway, like we need an excuse! 🤪😂
I am not an expert either, but I have read up on it some. The technology is in the “nano” stage for lack of a better word. One small company seems to be the leader right now but they will need investment to take it further. There is a lot of development needed before SS batteries go into motorized vehicles intended for consumers. I do believe SS will replace LI batteries but this technology is in the lab stage and has a ways to go.
 
I think that this article, published last week, helps clarify the point. A warning: it should be read for what it actually says, not for some fancy youtubers (or newspaper) interpretations.

Websites such as ScienceDaily are the closest thing to a peer reviewed scientific paper that is accessible to the general public, although they are NOT the same thing (I have no access to Nature Materials, and in any case the article is too technical to fully understand the actual reach of this discovery).

In short, the article says that Stanford researchers discovered that coating a solid-state battery’s brittle ceramic electrolyte with an ultra-thin layer of silver dramatically strengthens it and helps prevent the tiny cracks that normally cause these batteries to fail (note: this is the main unresolved issue of this technology). This nanoscale silver treatment makes the material much more resistant to damage and could be a relatively simple way to unlock safer, higher-energy, fast-charging solid-state batteries — though it is still early days and testing in full cells is required

But it also says that:.
So far, the experiments focused on small, localized areas rather than full battery cells. It is still unclear whether this silver-based approach can be scaled to larger batteries, integrated with other components, and maintain its performance over thousands of charging cycles.
So, this does not mean: “hey, problem solved! Next year (or even two or three) there will be solid-state batteries for sale in supermarkets, at low cost and capable of recharging in five minutes!” No, it means that there are other steps forward in sight. From here on, whether other problems will emerge along the way, if this solution (silver nanolayer) is viable and will not create some long-term issues. And in case of a positive answer, who is willing to trust it, to invest, and how this approach can be implemented at acceptable cost.
 
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This discussion reminds me of a TV program that originated in Britain and was shown on U.S. Public Broadcasting System.
The showed, called ‘Connections’ originated in Britain and was hosted by James Burke. The premise was that technology moves forward as a result of seemingly unrelated advancements in disparate areas. One result, is that no single person or entity is responsible for large advancements. The effect of one advancement cannot be predicted.

Very insightful….and fascinating to think about in context of the solid state battery discussion and our world in general.

A better description from Wikipedia _

Connections explores an "Alternative View of Change" (the subtitle of the series) that rejects the conventional linear and teleological view of historical progress. Burke contends that one cannot consider the development of any particular piece of the modern world in isolation. Rather, the entire gestalt of the modern world is the result of a web of interconnected events, each one consisting of a person or group acting for reasons of their own motivations (e.g., profit, curiosity, religion) with no concept of the final, modern result to which the actions of either them or their contemporaries would lead. The interplay of the results of these isolated events is what drives history and innovation, and is also the main focus of the series and its sequels.[3]

To demonstrate this view, Burke begins each episode with a particular event or innovation in the past (usually ancient or medieval times) and traces the path from that event through a series of seemingly unrelated connections to a fundamental and essential aspect of the modern world. For example, the episode "The Long Chain" traces the invention of plastics from the development of the fluyt, a type of Dutch cargo ship.

Burke also explores three corollaries to his initial thesis. The first is that, if history is driven by individuals who act only on what they know at the time, and not because of any idea as to where their actions will eventually lead, then predicting the future course of technological progress is merely conjecture. Therefore, if we are astonished by the connections Burke is able to weave among past events, then we will be equally surprised to what the events of today eventually will lead, especially events of which we were not even aware at the time.[3]

The second and third corollaries are explored most in the introductory and concluding episodes, and they represent the downside of an interconnected history. If history progresses because of the synergistic interaction of past events and innovations, then as history does progress, the number of these events and innovations increases. This increase in possible connections causes the process of innovation to not only continue, but also to accelerate. Burke poses the question of what happens when this rate of innovation, or more importantly "change" itself, becomes too much for the average person to handle, and what this means for individual power, liberty, and privacy.

Lastly, if the entire modern world is built from these interconnected innovations, all increasingly maintained and improved by specialists who required years of training to gain their expertise, what chance does the average citizen without this extensive training have in making an informed decision on practical technological issues, such as the building of nuclear power plants or the funding of controversial projects such as stem cell research? Furthermore, if the modern world is increasingly interconnected, what happens when one of those nodes collapses? Does the entire system follow suit?
 
This reminded me of the massive advances in LED lighting technology over the past few years. I recently found an old set of incandescent MTB lights from my 2001 Kona in the bottom of a parts box. They maybe put out about 250 lumens and were wired to a 3 pound lead acid battery that sat in the bottle cage. If you were lucky you could eke out about a hour and a half of dimly-lit ride time. Compare that to the 8000 lumen, 450 gram LED/lithium ion battery setup I now use that can last for several hours!
And consider laser technology… it’s ubiquitous in thousands of products we use every day. Nobody could ever have guessed in the myriad of potential applications, cheap cost and miniaturization lasers would undergo when they were first developed. The pace of technological change and product development has been accelerating faster than ever before, but it’s amazing how quickly we seamlessly adapt these changes into our everyday lives. In the absence of some catastrophic global shock (the pessimist in me isn’t so sure we will avoid this), it could be an incredible few decades ahead.
 
This discussion reminds me of a TV program that originated in Britain and was shown on U.S. Public Broadcasting System.
The showed, called ‘Connections’ originated in Britain and was hosted by James Burke. The premise was that technology moves forward as a result of seemingly unrelated advancements in disparate areas. One result, is that no single person or entity is responsible for large advancements. The effect of one advancement cannot be predicted.

Very insightful….and fascinating to think about in context of the solid state battery discussion and our world in general.

A better description from Wikipedia _

Connections explores an "Alternative View of Change" (the subtitle of the series) that rejects the conventional linear and teleological view of historical progress. Burke contends that one cannot consider the development of any particular piece of the modern world in isolation. Rather, the entire gestalt of the modern world is the result of a web of interconnected events, each one consisting of a person or group acting for reasons of their own motivations (e.g., profit, curiosity, religion) with no concept of the final, modern result to which the actions of either them or their contemporaries would lead. The interplay of the results of these isolated events is what drives history and innovation, and is also the main focus of the series and its sequels.[3]

To demonstrate this view, Burke begins each episode with a particular event or innovation in the past (usually ancient or medieval times) and traces the path from that event through a series of seemingly unrelated connections to a fundamental and essential aspect of the modern world. For example, the episode "The Long Chain" traces the invention of plastics from the development of the fluyt, a type of Dutch cargo ship.

Burke also explores three corollaries to his initial thesis. The first is that, if history is driven by individuals who act only on what they know at the time, and not because of any idea as to where their actions will eventually lead, then predicting the future course of technological progress is merely conjecture. Therefore, if we are astonished by the connections Burke is able to weave among past events, then we will be equally surprised to what the events of today eventually will lead, especially events of which we were not even aware at the time.[3]

The second and third corollaries are explored most in the introductory and concluding episodes, and they represent the downside of an interconnected history. If history progresses because of the synergistic interaction of past events and innovations, then as history does progress, the number of these events and innovations increases. This increase in possible connections causes the process of innovation to not only continue, but also to accelerate. Burke poses the question of what happens when this rate of innovation, or more importantly "change" itself, becomes too much for the average person to handle, and what this means for individual power, liberty, and privacy.

Lastly, if the entire modern world is built from these interconnected innovations, all increasingly maintained and improved by specialists who required years of training to gain their expertise, what chance does the average citizen without this extensive training have in making an informed decision on practical technological issues, such as the building of nuclear power plants or the funding of controversial projects such as stem cell research? Furthermore, if the modern world is increasingly interconnected, what happens when one of those nodes collapses? Does the entire system follow suit?
James Burke is great, his Connections TV program was also updated into a podcast with newer stuff a few years ago, well worth a listen.
 
There’s a human tendency to sort information into “true or false,” when in reality there’s a third, and much more common, option: “we don’t know.” Very often, when someone says “this hasn’t been proven YET,” even in scientific contexts the brain jumps to “hmm… so it’s not true.”

That’s not the case. Unproven, uncertain, etc. mean only one thing: we. don’t. know. Full stop.

I found this article quite interesting, if you read past the headline, because it says there are encouraging independent tests regarding these “revolutionary” batteries, i.e. no showstoppers so far, but also that some key tests still need to be carried out.

All we can do is wait before concluding that they don’t work or, on the other hand, that they do.


As the article says, there have been a few cases where a small laboratory or company managed to achieve what large companies could not. One example that comes to mind is the exciting story of the invention of blue LEDs by Shuji Nakamura. Working relentlessly for years, seven days a week, he ultimately accomplished what every companies had dismissed as impossible, pursuing an independent (and rather unpopular at the time) path. And the impact of this invention is IMMENSE, actually one of the greatest successes in the effort to reduce the environmental footprint of our species, given that the gain in efficiency compared to other technologies is enormous and widespread in households everywhere, every evening.

But there are countless other cases, far more, in fact, where positive results never materialized. But those tend to end up in the trashbin of history and are much harder to remember.
 
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I've been watching all the experts on the VVT test results and Donut Lab reports. Waiting and hoping in great anticipation...
If this battery is what Donut Lab states then I can't wait for them to get into the eMTB world! It could see some amazing game changing gains for us.

Fingers Crossed!!! :unsure:
 
I found this article quite interesting, if you read past the headline, because it says there are encouraging independent tests regarding these “revolutionary” batteries, i.e. no showstoppers so far, but also that some key tests still need to be carried out.

All we can do is wait before concluding that they don’t work or, on the other hand, that they do.

The part I don't believe is true is the claim that batteries with the listed spec are ready to be mass-produced cost competitively (same price) as current mass-produced Li-ion cells. I don't believe it for a minute, the proof is they would be going after utility scale battery storage manufacturers and large volume EV producers, not e-motorcycles and an EV platform no one has heard about.

Plus, there are a lot of other clues that things are not all they are cracked up to be.
 
The part I don't believe is true is the claim that batteries with the listed spec are ready to be mass-produced cost competitively (same price) as current mass-produced Li-ion cells. I don't believe it for a minute, the proof is they would be going after utility scale battery storage manufacturers and large volume EV producers, not e-motorcycles and an EV platform no one has heard about.

Plus, there are a lot of other clues that things are not all they are cracked up to be.
As @pagheca said: "All we can do is wait before concluding that they don’t work or, on the other hand, that they do."
 
As @pagheca said: "All we can do is wait before concluding that they don’t work or, on the other hand, that they do."

I'm not gullible enough to have to wait. Don't get me wrong, I wish everything they claim was actually true, but it's not. The puzzle pieces are not fitting, I'm not going to bang my head on the table and smoke hopium. I live in reality.

Remember, last year the same guy claimed to have invented breakthrough AI. It went nowhere. Any questions?
 
I'm not gullible enough to have to wait. Don't get me wrong, I wish everything they claim was actually true, but it's not. The puzzle pieces are not fitting, I'm not going to bang my head on the table and smoke hopium. I live in reality.

Remember, last year the same guy claimed to have invented breakthrough AI. It went nowhere. Any questions?
In cases like this, I usually put it this way: imagine someone pointing a gun at your temple and saying, “Bet that this will happen (or that it’s true), or that it won’t (that it’s false). If you win the bet, I’ll spare your life. If you lose, I’ll shoot.”

If things were really like that, then I would probably bet, unfortunately, that what this Finnish guy is trying to do will not succeed within any reasonable timeframe. Simply because it’s extremely difficult to pull something like this off in a reasonable amount of time.

But we are not in that situation. Nobody is pointing a gun at our heads, and in the end it doesn’t cost me much to wait. And hope. So I’d rather just see whether independent tests will eventually show that what this gentleman claims is true, or whether it turns out to be just another false promise.

I hope you understand now my full point of view on this, and almost any, technical issue where I am not very competent.
 
I'm not gullible enough to have to wait. Don't get me wrong, I wish everything they claim was actually true, but it's not. The puzzle pieces are not fitting, I'm not going to bang my head on the table and smoke hopium. I live in reality.

Remember, last year the same guy claimed to have invented breakthrough AI. It went nowhere. Any questions?
The certainty of fools. Costs nothing to wait.

"No doubt the universe is unfolding as it should". (c) Max Ehrmann.
 
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