How are eMTBs 1/3 the price of a Tesla model 3?

How are ebikes on 2024 around 1/3 of the price of a brand new tesla model 3? Seems like every brand is pushning for 10,000+ USD ebikes and something in my scam sense seems off. There is no way an ebike should cost that much on 2024. 8 years ago when tech was new? sure...

The tesla model 3 has 100x the battery capacity, 100x more powerfull motor, 4 wheels, 4 brakes and thousands of components.
Some $10k bikes are even still hard to get and you need to wait months. How are chinnese companies not flooding the market to take a profit of this absurd profit margins? is it just a matter for time?

The only way this can happen is the profit margins for every supplier in the supply chain must be instane. From shimano, sram, to the brands assembling the bikes and making the frames. Everyone must be getting a cut of insane profits except probably the dealers.

Tesla’s are shit though

uxrjav said:

................. How are chinnese companies not flooding the market to take a profit of this absurd profit margins? is it just a matter for time? ...............

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Well, they do that on everything else, so what is stopping them? Probably because there are no insane profit margins.

The bike industry is still struggling to get over the aftermath of the pandemic. It induced a famine and feast situation and it may cycle through once more before it stabilises.

The question you are asking is the same one already asked many times before on a comparison with motor bikes. The answer there has been volume and standardisation. You only get one size of motorbike.

But you have answered your own question. Why aren't the Chinese flooding the market? They are on electric scooters. So maybe it won't be long before they start on e-bikes and we all have to get a smoke detector for our garage.

Why are you comparing the most expensive e-bikes with the least expensive Tesla?

Most expensive e-bikes are expensive because people buy them.

Yes, the prices are purely supply and demand based. The question now is whether MSRPs will move even slightly down now that demand is vastly diminished.

But forget about the Tesla, how is BYD releasing the seagull/dolphin-mini with a 30kWh battery for $10k in China, which is the price of many brands' mid level ebikes.

Because people will pay it.

uxrjav said:

How are ebikes on 2024 around 1/3 of the price of a brand new tesla model 3?

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What? Are you serious?
Have you ever hit even a small tabletop with your Tesla?
They don't handle for šhït.

Because e-bikes are better made.

Because e-bikes is not a car

Ebikes will have crazy profit margins, where cars can run extremely thin margins and competition is fierce.
6300$ gets you this

and thats about the cost of most EMTBs people are riding

Cost to build is not the same thing as value to the customer.

Payroll costs may be larger than costs for product components and manufacturing equipment.

If you can sell millions rather than thousands, your per-part costs go way down and you can sell each product for less and still make enough to be successful.

only 3 sku, one size, mostly automated production and high output/line

uxrjav said:

How are ebikes on 2024 around 1/3 of the price of a brand new tesla model 3? Seems like every brand is pushning for 10,000+ USD ebikes and something in my scam sense seems off. There is no way an ebike should cost that much on 2024. 8 years ago when tech was new? sure...

The tesla model 3 has 100x the battery capacity, 100x more powerfull motor, 4 wheels, 4 brakes and thousands of components.
Some $10k bikes are even still hard to get and you need to wait months. How are chinnese companies not flooding the market to take a profit of this absurd profit margins? is it just a matter for time?

The only way this can happen is the profit margins for every supplier in the supply chain must be instane. From shimano, sram, to the brands assembling the bikes and making the frames. Everyone must be getting a cut of insane profits except probably the dealers.

Click to expand...

It's the Apple marketing model: offer three price options, the highest ridiculous, so the other options look more reasonable.

The base model of many top brand good e-bikes these days are 5-6K and if you wait until the end of the season you can get deals at 3-4K. Lots of great spec on those base models, too.

However, there are plenty of people who think they can only accept "the best" and will happily spend 10k+ on a bike (without even looking at the spec). If it's that expensive it must be "the best". As long as these people exist, brands will offer those bikes.

michael_bc said:

It's the Apple marketing model: offer three price options, the highest ridiculous, so the other options look more reasonable.

The base model of many top brand good e-bikes these days are 5-6K and if you wait until the end of the season you can get deals at 3-4K. Lots of great spec on those base models, too.

However, there are plenty of people who think they can only accept "the best" and will happily spend 10k+ on a bike (without even looking at the spec). If it's that expensive it must be "the best". As long as these people exist, brands will offer those bikes.

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I'm glad those ppl exist without them the bike industry would be bankrupt.

Simply if you don't like the price of them don't buy one ,
Nobody is forcing you into the sport / hobby
I never understand these posts personally

TommyC said:

Tesla’s are shit though

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Only if you trust what the lamestream media is telling you, along with 100,000 anti-Tesla, anti-EV web bots and their copy-cat minions.

We have 3 six-year-old Tesla's, two RWD Long-Range Model 3 and one AWD Performance Model 3. The RWD Model 3 were the least expensive cars we could buy from Tesla in 2018 and they were the best new cars we have ever owned in terms of reliability, driving dynamics, feature set, efficiency, power and performance and convenience. Now, one just turned over 100,000 miles, one has over 70,000 miles and one has 32,000 miles (so about 203,000 combined miles).

Guess what? They live a hard life on bad roads, are parked either outside all the time or partially covered by a one-car carport and they still look and drive almost as new. They have barely needed anything beyond tires, wiper blades and windshield washer fluid. They all have the original brakes. None of them show any rust and the paint still looks shiny after I wash them. The seats are STILL the most comfortable car or truck seats I have ever experienced, and they look new except for normal shiny spots in the high wear areas. Sure, the paintwork has normal small rock chips if you look carefully, but they don't detract from the appearance if you stand back 8 feet, they are invisible. Most of the wheels have varying degrees of curb rash which is the thing that stands out the most relative to a brand-new car.

Both of us are over 60 years old and have bought a good number of nicer new or nearly cars over the years and all three of these blow away anything we have ever owned in terms of reliability and low cost of operation. Not to mention having really nice sounding stereos, super-fast warm-up in the winter, and keeping the cabin occupants cool as cucumbers on hot summer days. Unlike our other cars, the cabin climate controls just keep working perfectly, we change the cabin air filters every 2-3 years, that's it. Things just don't break on these cars like they have with every other car we have ever owned.

I think owning these cars for six years, and putting them through their paces in snow, slush and ice, bad roads, rugged mountain rocky roads where I have to pick my way between and around jagged rocks and road washouts, taking high-speed road trips with a lot of driving around 90 mph, and some sections up to 130 mph on lonely, remote roads, and keeping them parked outside in the weather most of the time, qualifies as me as knowing more about how these cars perform and last in the real world than the web bots and Internet detractors. They are really good cars, made to last.

So, when I see someone who has never even driven one claim they are "shit", I just have to laugh at the ignorance displayed. Their quality and reliability is why I'm about to take delivery of a Cybertruck, to replace our aging 2010 F-150 4x4. I have zero doubt it will out-perform the Ford in every respect.

Fact: The best-selling car in the world in 2023 was the Tesla Model Y, outselling every gas car made. No automaker can achieve that enviable title without offering new car buyers superior value. That's how any automaker always achieves that title, by offering new car buyers superior value. I'm glad an American car company finally took back the title of "Best-selling car in the world" after decades of it being dominated by Japanese Automakers.

MountainBoy said:

Only if you trust what the lamestream media is telling you, along with 100,000 anti-Tesla, anti-EV web bots and their copy-cat minions.

We have 3 six-year-old Tesla's, two RWD Long-Range Model 3 and one AWD Performance Model 3. The RWD Model 3 were the least expensive cars we could buy from Tesla in 2018 and they were the best new cars we have ever owned in terms of reliability, driving dynamics, feature set, efficiency, power and performance and convenience. Now, one just turned over 100,000 miles, one has over 70,000 miles and one has 32,000 miles (so about 203,000 combined miles).

Guess what? They live a hard life on bad roads, are parked either outside all the time or partially covered by a one-car carport and they still look and drive almost as new. They have barely needed anything beyond tires, wiper blades and windshield washer fluid. They all have the original brakes. None of them show any rust and the paint still looks shiny after I wash them. The seats are STILL the most comfortable car or truck seats I have ever experienced, and they look new except for normal shiny spots in the high wear areas. Sure, the paintwork has normal small rock chips if you look carefully, but they don't detract from the appearance if you stand back 8 feet, they are invisible. Most of the wheels have varying degrees of curb rash which is the thing that stands out the most relative to a brand-new car.

Both of us are over 60 years old and have bought a good number of nicer new or nearly cars over the years and all three of these blow away anything we have ever owned in terms of reliability and low cost of operation. Not to mention having really nice sounding stereos, super-fast warm-up in the winter, and keeping the cabin occupants cool as cucumbers on hot summer days. Unlike our other cars, the cabin climate controls just keep working perfectly, we change the cabin air filters every 2-3 years, that's it. Things just don't break on these cars like they have with every other car we have ever owned.

I think owning these cars for six years, and putting them through their paces in snow, slush and ice, bad roads, rugged mountain rocky roads where I have to pick my way between and around jagged rocks and road washouts, taking high-speed road trips with a lot of driving around 90 mph, and some sections up to 130 mph on lonely, remote roads, and keeping them parked outside in the weather most of the time, qualifies as me as knowing more about how these cars perform and last in the real world than the web bots and Internet detractors. They are really good cars, made to last.

So, when I see someone who has never even driven one claim they are "shit", I just have to laugh at the ignorance displayed. Their quality and reliability is why I'm about to take delivery of a Cybertruck, to replace our aging 2010 F-150 4x4. I have zero doubt it will out-perform the Ford in every respect.

Fact: The best-selling car in the world in 2023 was the Tesla Model Y, outselling every gas car made. No automaker can achieve that enviable title without offering new car buyers superior value. That's how any automaker always achieves that title, by offering new car buyers superior value. I'm glad an American car company finally took back the title of "Best-selling car in the world" after decades of it being dominated by Japanese Automakers.

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I guess this thread was about ebike prices not a lengthy investigation on your personal car fleet and their service history

My hardtail plus a load of accessories (lights, mudguards, Kiox300 display, etc.) came in at 3k€. I'd have stayed under 3 grand if I hadn't splased out on the dropper post upgrade .

As I'm also commuting with it as well as having fun, I'm arguably saving 40€/month in public transport costs (as well as being quicker, fitter, more flexible, etc.).

Comparing the high-end of the scale isn't particularly useful. For some context, the bicycles ridden in the Tour de France cost over 12K€ and they don't even come with a motor... Obviously, 99% of people don't require a bike in this class.

It would be more consistent to compare a high-end emtb with the price say, of a Lamborghini.

Polar said:

I guess this thread was about ebike prices not a lengthy investigation on your personal car fleet and their service history

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Well I agree with @MountainBoy. Most who knock EVs in general and Tesla in particular just follow the mainstream media narrative and have no practical experience of the benefits of Tesla ownership in particular.

There are many parallels with EMTBs, particularly in motor and battery performance. This thread started as a comparison with Tesla so the reply is entirely relevant.

MountainBoy said:

Only if you trust what the lamestream media is telling you, along with 100,000 anti-Tesla, anti-EV web bots and their copy-cat minions.

We have 3 six-year-old Tesla's, two RWD Long-Range Model 3 and one AWD Performance Model 3. The RWD Model 3 were the least expensive cars we could buy from Tesla in 2018 and they were the best new cars we have ever owned in terms of reliability, driving dynamics, feature set, efficiency, power and performance and convenience. Now, one just turned over 100,000 miles, one has over 70,000 miles and one has 32,000 miles (so about 203,000 combined miles).

Guess what? They live a hard life on bad roads, are parked either outside all the time or partially covered by a one-car carport and they still look and drive almost as new. They have barely needed anything beyond tires, wiper blades and windshield washer fluid. They all have the original brakes. None of them show any rust and the paint still looks shiny after I wash them. The seats are STILL the most comfortable car or truck seats I have ever experienced, and they look new except for normal shiny spots in the high wear areas. Sure, the paintwork has normal small rock chips if you look carefully, but they don't detract from the appearance if you stand back 8 feet, they are invisible. Most of the wheels have varying degrees of curb rash which is the thing that stands out the most relative to a brand-new car.

Both of us are over 60 years old and have bought a good number of nicer new or nearly cars over the years and all three of these blow away anything we have ever owned in terms of reliability and low cost of operation. Not to mention having really nice sounding stereos, super-fast warm-up in the winter, and keeping the cabin occupants cool as cucumbers on hot summer days. Unlike our other cars, the cabin climate controls just keep working perfectly, we change the cabin air filters every 2-3 years, that's it. Things just don't break on these cars like they have with every other car we have ever owned.

I think owning these cars for six years, and putting them through their paces in snow, slush and ice, bad roads, rugged mountain rocky roads where I have to pick my way between and around jagged rocks and road washouts, taking high-speed road trips with a lot of driving around 90 mph, and some sections up to 130 mph on lonely, remote roads, and keeping them parked outside in the weather most of the time, qualifies as me as knowing more about how these cars perform and last in the real world than the web bots and Internet detractors. They are really good cars, made to last.

So, when I see someone who has never even driven one claim they are "shit", I just have to laugh at the ignorance displayed. Their quality and reliability is why I'm about to take delivery of a Cybertruck, to replace our aging 2010 F-150 4x4. I have zero doubt it will out-perform the Ford in every respect.

Fact: The best-selling car in the world in 2023 was the Tesla Model Y, outselling every gas car made. No automaker can achieve that enviable title without offering new car buyers superior value. That's how any automaker always achieves that title, by offering new car buyers superior value. I'm glad an American car company finally took back the title of "Best-selling car in the world" after decades of it being dominated by Japanese Automakers.

Click to expand...

Who said I hadn’t driven one? Must have touched a nerve!

TommyC said:

Who said I hadn’t driven one? Must have touched a nerve!

Click to expand...

He knows since he's one of few satisfied Tesla owners knowing the statistics of failure and complaints are wrong.
Tesla is down 33% so far in 2024 for a reason

uxrjav said:

There is no way an ebike should cost that much on 2024. 8 years ago when tech was new? sure...

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While you're correct in that usually over time technology decreases in price I think you're overlooking the fact that the specifications have been increasing over time. Compare a Bosch gen 2 motor to a contemporary gen 4.

For example, typical battery capacity is higher today than 8 years ago. While the base price of a battery has remained pretty much the same, the cost per Kwh has actually decreased.

You mean how is a Tesla that cheap?

My bike which is fairly high end cost $7200 US. We also have a Tesla 3 LR which cost $45k. So that’s over 6 times more. I also have a $6k motorcycle and a $22k motorcycle. How is that even possible? And when I was a kid, I had a $20 bike. Crazy.

MountainBoy said:

Only if you trust what the lamestream media is telling you, along with 100,000 anti-Tesla, anti-EV web bots and their copy-cat minions.

We have 3 six-year-old Tesla's, two RWD Long-Range Model 3 and one AWD Performance Model 3. The RWD Model 3 were the least expensive cars we could buy from Tesla in 2018 and they were the best new cars we have ever owned in terms of reliability, driving dynamics, feature set, efficiency, power and performance and convenience. Now, one just turned over 100,000 miles, one has over 70,000 miles and one has 32,000 miles (so about 203,000 combined miles).

Guess what? They live a hard life on bad roads, are parked either outside all the time or partially covered by a one-car carport and they still look and drive almost as new. They have barely needed anything beyond tires, wiper blades and windshield washer fluid. They all have the original brakes. None of them show any rust and the paint still looks shiny after I wash them. The seats are STILL the most comfortable car or truck seats I have ever experienced, and they look new except for normal shiny spots in the high wear areas. Sure, the paintwork has normal small rock chips if you look carefully, but they don't detract from the appearance if you stand back 8 feet, they are invisible. Most of the wheels have varying degrees of curb rash which is the thing that stands out the most relative to a brand-new car.

Both of us are over 60 years old and have bought a good number of nicer new or nearly cars over the years and all three of these blow away anything we have ever owned in terms of reliability and low cost of operation. Not to mention having really nice sounding stereos, super-fast warm-up in the winter, and keeping the cabin occupants cool as cucumbers on hot summer days. Unlike our other cars, the cabin climate controls just keep working perfectly, we change the cabin air filters every 2-3 years, that's it. Things just don't break on these cars like they have with every other car we have ever owned.

I think owning these cars for six years, and putting them through their paces in snow, slush and ice, bad roads, rugged mountain rocky roads where I have to pick my way between and around jagged rocks and road washouts, taking high-speed road trips with a lot of driving around 90 mph, and some sections up to 130 mph on lonely, remote roads, and keeping them parked outside in the weather most of the time, qualifies as me as knowing more about how these cars perform and last in the real world than the web bots and Internet detractors. They are really good cars, made to last.

So, when I see someone who has never even driven one claim they are "shit", I just have to laugh at the ignorance displayed. Their quality and reliability is why I'm about to take delivery of a Cybertruck, to replace our aging 2010 F-150 4x4. I have zero doubt it will out-perform the Ford in every respect.

Fact: The best-selling car in the world in 2023 was the Tesla Model Y, outselling every gas car made. No automaker can achieve that enviable title without offering new car buyers superior value. That's how any automaker always achieves that title, by offering new car buyers superior value. I'm glad an American car company finally took back the title of "Best-selling car in the world" after decades of it being dominated by Japanese Automakers.

Click to expand...

You would make s great Tesla salesperson
I was nearly chasing my mind about EV's

TommyC said:

Who said I hadn’t driven one? Must have touched a nerve!

Click to expand...

When I see blatantly uneducated opinions that are simply wrong, and I happen to have insight, I will often, time permitting, correct the false statement. Yes, it's false that "Tesla's are shit, though".

The discussion was why e-MTBs could cost so much relative to an electric car with a battery 100 times as large, etc. One answer is that almost every other automaker sells their EV's at a loss, trying to compete against Tesla.

The answer is not because "Tesla's are shit", it's because they are the pinnacle of value in the automotive market (as evidenced by the Model Y being the highest selling model in the world). The reason Tesla can offer higher value and sell more than anyone else (while making a profit), while others lose money and have a fraction of the market share, is because Tesla is constantly innovating ways to make the cars faster and more efficiently, eliminating waste at every opportunity.

One way they do that is by limiting the number of different models they offer, equipping even the budget cars with the same high-end stereos as their more expensive models, keeping the number of unique parts to a minimum, streamlining the sales process and spending next to nothing on advertising and marketing (one of the bigger expenses of legacy automakers), engineering the cars to be built in as few of steps as possible and, the really big one, being vertically integrated in terms of making a very high percentage of the parts themselves, right down to their seats (legacy manufacturers order the seats from suppliers).

And that vertical integration, or lack thereof, is precisely why E-MTBs are so expensive. Even the leading brands must order batteries, motor controllers, cranks, handlebars, gearsets, chains, wheels, brakes, etc. from suppliers, and each one wants their cut. Tesla makes their own motors, controllers, batteries (even batteries with cells from other suppliers are built in-house), seats, cabin climate controls and, the really big one, software. Other manufacturers hire tech firms to supply them with software and it's a mess. A car has a lot more software complexity than a bike so it had better be good. And the cost of software can be spread out over millions of cars.

E-MAD MALC said:

You would make s great Tesla salesperson
I was nearly chasing my mind about EV's

Click to expand...

I've sold a number of Tesla simply by letting people drive one of ours. They are generally blown away, I don't have to convince anyone, the cars speak for themselves once people realize they have been lied to about EVs in general, and Tesla, in particular.

I've put 30-some thousand miles on ours, and it seems like half the neighborhood has one. The cost savings is insane, first off, to where the car is nearly free. Meaning, the savings are nearly what a car payment would be. Never having to stop at a gas station, and always leaving "full" is something you learn to really love. Having it mostly drive itself has changed so much, from arriving far less stressed, to being able to better use time by being productive on the drive. No oil changes, no brake jobs, nothing more than a cabin air filter and tires. I've been really wanting a truck, but cannot see myself going back to an outdated gas-driven vehicle ever again. It's an absolute life-changer.

MountainBoy said:

When I see blatantly uneducated opinions that are simply wrong, and I happen to have insight, I will often, time permitting, correct the false statement. Yes, it's false that "Tesla's are shit, though".

The discussion was why e-MTBs could cost so much relative to an electric car with a battery 100 times as large, etc. One answer is that almost every other automaker sells their EV's at a loss, trying to compete against Tesla.

The answer is not because "Tesla's are shit", it's because they are the pinnacle of value in the automotive market (as evidenced by the Model Y being the highest selling model in the world). The reason Tesla can offer higher value and sell more than anyone else (while making a profit), while others lose money and have a fraction of the market share, is because Tesla is constantly innovating ways to make the cars faster and more efficiently, eliminating waste at every opportunity.

One way they do that is by limiting the number of different models they offer, equipping even the budget cars with the same high-end stereos as their more expensive models, keeping the number of unique parts to a minimum, streamlining the sales process and spending next to nothing on advertising and marketing (one of the bigger expenses of legacy automakers), engineering the cars to be built in as few of steps as possible and, the really big one, being vertically integrated in terms of making a very high percentage of the parts themselves, right down to their seats (legacy manufacturers order the seats from suppliers).

And that vertical integration, or lack thereof, is precisely why E-MTBs are so expensive. Even the leading brands must order batteries, motor controllers, cranks, handlebars, gearsets, chains, wheels, brakes, etc. from suppliers, and each one wants their cut. Tesla makes their own motors, controllers, batteries (even batteries with cells from other suppliers are built in-house), seats, cabin climate controls and, the really big one, software. Other manufacturers hire tech firms to supply them with software and it's a mess. A car has a lot more software complexity than a bike so it had better be good. And the cost of software can be spread out over millions of cars.

Click to expand...

I got to ‘pinnacle of value bla bla bla’ and gave up.

I’ve not owned a Tesla but a dozen or so friends and family have and most have given up on them within two years. I had a go in one. Yeah it’s ’ludicrously’ fast but it’s ugly soulless and boring. Just like their owners when they bang on about the virtues of EV ownership.

SwampNut said:

I've put 30-some thousand miles on ours, and it seems like half the neighborhood has one. The cost savings is insane, first off, to where the car is nearly free. Meaning, the savings are nearly what a car payment would be. Never having to stop at a gas station, and always leaving "full" is something you learn to really love. Having it mostly drive itself has changed so much, from arriving far less stressed, to being able to better use time by being productive on the drive. No oil changes, no brake jobs, nothing more than a cabin air filter and tires. I've been really wanting a truck, but cannot see myself going back to an outdated gas-driven vehicle ever again. It's an absolute life-changer.

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I've a brother I'd like to see but the journey is 400 miles to get there
So if i start with a full battery I would have to stop at some point to hang around to charge the battery again

How do you find these situations
When one can go into any fuel station and take fuel in less than 10 minutes and on your way again

Ebikes are better made? Tesla motors are built to last a million miles.

Lucky if you get to the end of the street on some ebikes...