EMTB manufacturers are price gouging.

tomato paste

Active member
Mar 18, 2019
220
141
Germany
Simple solution is dont buy one then (y)
Some Ukrainians and other refugees here purchase ebikes as a transport mode, because they can't afford a car and there's no train line serving their route of travel. Just FYI.

In that case, they pay a 50% mark up as standard operating profit, then another 50% sellers inflation mark up on top of that, for new bikes. Meanwhile, the secondary market has followed suit, as the numbers of immigrants from warzones increases.
 

Paulquattro

E*POWAH Master
May 7, 2020
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The Darkside
Some Ukrainians and other refugees here purchase ebikes as a transport mode, because they can't afford a car and there's no train line serving their route of travel. Just FYI.

In that case, they pay a 50% mark up as standard operating profit, then another 50% sellers inflation mark up on top of that, for new bikes. Meanwhile, the secondary market has followed suit, as the numbers of immigrants from warzones increases.
And for your information they have the option of using standard un assisted bikes
Assisted is a luxury end of, if you want it pay for it that may sound harsh but its a fact .
 

johnnystorm

New Member
Jun 19, 2023
53
74
Suffolk, UK
Some Ukrainians and other refugees here purchase ebikes as a transport mode, because they can't afford a car and there's no train line serving their route of travel. Just FYI.

In that case, they pay a 50% mark up as standard operating profit, then another 50% sellers inflation mark up on top of that, for new bikes. Meanwhile, the secondary market has followed suit, as the numbers of immigrants from warzones increases.
Pop into Halfords and get a commuting capable eBike for a grand or less. Do I think Specialized and the like are having a laugh with the price of an S-Works, yes siree. Are they depriving deserving individuals from a human right, no, I don't think so. At the risk of forcing the issue, ignoring S-Works halo models and the rest. Taking a base model bike that has the same frame/battery/motor as a higher spec one, where have you got the figures that there is a 100% or whatever mark up?
 

TheSnowShark

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Subscriber
Sep 7, 2023
140
181
French-Alpes
Some Ukrainians and other refugees here purchase ebikes as a transport mode, because they can't afford a car and there's no train line serving their route of travel. Just FYI.

In that case, they pay a 50% mark up as standard operating profit, then another 50% sellers inflation mark up on top of that, for new bikes. Meanwhile, the secondary market has followed suit, as the numbers of immigrants from warzones increases.

I don't agree with you, if you look at luxury brands like Specialized, Bulls, Crestline.. etc OK it's expensive and the margins must be high..
But you also have choices like Vitus, and in Germany Radon for example, and there the margins are extremely reduced while still offering very functional bikes..
So we don't have to buy luxury, I don't buy Calvin Klein, and my wife doesn't buy Dior ! 😁
 

G-Sport

Active member
Oct 7, 2022
230
178
Yorkshire
All consumer items have profit margins on them. Margins on ebikes aren't very different from other high end bikes. If the margins were truely outrageous there would be rival brands coming in much cheaper, which you do see, but you can also see where they saved the money for the most part. In the last 12 months a lot of brands have sold stuff ridiculously cheap and you can bet they are taking a big hit to sell at these prices.
Motor and battery vendors may well be making stupid money though. £300 for a 160Wh range extender!?!?!
 

Montana St Alum

Active member
Feb 13, 2023
211
164
Park City Utah
Some Ukrainians and other refugees here purchase ebikes as a transport mode, because they can't afford a car and there's no train line serving their route of travel. Just FYI.
This seems unlikely. There are probably plenty of motorcycles and scooters available that can be filled with fuel (even if you have to siphon it out of another vehicle) or regular bikes. OTOH, plugging in a charger after an airstrike or artillery barrage doesn't seem like a good option.
 

tomato paste

Active member
Mar 18, 2019
220
141
Germany
And for your information they have the option of using standard un assisted bikes
Assisted is a luxury end of, if you want it pay for it that may sound harsh but its a fact .
True of cars & trains, you can walk? And cars are a component of CPI. When prices go up unnecessarily relative to inputs, people care and it's important.

Just to be clear, you guys work for bike companies I guess?
 

tomato paste

Active member
Mar 18, 2019
220
141
Germany
This seems unlikely. There are probably plenty of motorcycles and scooters available that can be filled with fuel (even if you have to siphon it out of another vehicle) or regular bikes. OTOH, plugging in a charger after an airstrike or artillery barrage doesn't seem like a good option.
This in Europe? Not sure what you are talking about tbh.
 

G-Sport

Active member
Oct 7, 2022
230
178
Yorkshire
True of cars & trains, you can walk? And cars are a component of CPI. When prices go up unnecessarily relative to inputs, people care and it's important.

Just to be clear, you guys work for bike companies I guess?
I work for a bike company yes. But we don't currently make any ebikes but I have been working on our first for a while, hence I know what the parts cost and so can make a reasonable estimate of what the margins are like.
Emtbs are much more demanding than city bikes.
 

tomato paste

Active member
Mar 18, 2019
220
141
Germany
I work for a bike company yes. But we don't currently make any ebikes but I have been working on our first for a while, hence I know what the parts cost and so can make a reasonable estimate of what the margins are like.
Emtbs are much more demanding than city bikes.
Cool, conflicts of interest.

At any rate, the data keeps growing, and it's showing pretty ugly gouging.
 

Growmac

Well-known member
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Dec 4, 2020
375
389
Wilts, UK
I'm not sure I see e-bikes as a market where gouging is or even can be a thing? It's a bit like saying Bentley are gouging as a "similar" Skoda SUV costs less.

There are plenty of cheap e-bikes suitable for getting from A to B. Some of us do this e-bike lark for fun and have the budget to spend lots on a fancy luxury that leaves us severely under-ridered. Nobody needs an S-Works Full Carbon bike. Some of us want one. If the bike companies can charge a lot for that small number of bikes then good luck to them. Plenty of budget options, or incredible deals on second hand, if you don't fancy it.
 

arTNC

New Member
Feb 1, 2024
70
119
Texas
All consumer items have profit margins on them. Margins on ebikes aren't very different from other high end bikes. If the margins were truely outrageous there would be rival brands coming in much cheaper, which you do see, but you can also see where they saved the money for the most part. In the last 12 months a lot of brands have sold stuff ridiculously cheap and you can bet they are taking a big hit to sell at these prices.
Motor and battery vendors may well be making stupid money though. £300 for a 160Wh range extender!?!?!
I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head. I'm just a part time guy at a bike shop here in Texas retired from my normal career. So obviously I know everything there is to know about the bike industry, manufacturers, riders, and the market...LOL!...LOL!...LOL!...and add another LOL! 😄

But seriously, the price gouging concept by this tomato paste guy that is allegedly occurring all over the bike market and industry is almost comical. If one pays attention and knows some people at high enough levels in the industry, one can see competition tends to level the price market a bit. And now especially since most of the industry really ramped up production of bikes and components post covid, they've probably overdone it a bit and prices are falling...the reverse of gouging.

We sell Trek, Specialized, and Santa Cruz mainly at our shop. Talking to parties associated with these outfits has a common theme, and it clearly doesn't appear to be a panacea flush with price gouging. The big guys of bike and component manufacturing will survive the downturn, but it's hardly a market where most companies are bathing in Dom Perion...LOL!

Look, tomato paste I see you're in Europe, and maybe serious and consistent price gouging is occurring there...you're there and I'm here. But I think G-Sport's take appears to be in line with what we're seeing here in the U.S., and it's why I'm now riding a new Trek Rail 7 with several high upgrades purchased at what is an almost laughable price. Sure, there are segments of this industry in the specialty sector that might be gouging due to real or perceived demand, but as someone already stated, Gucci stuff like that at any price is not gouging. When we're talking about bikes and mainstream components, I'm not seeing it.

And one has to remember that prices of materials, shipping, transportation, etc., etc. have actually gone up, so you can't produce many/most items at the prices you did 4 years ago. And just to focus on one small element that we'll probably see more of is something like the Shimano Cues line...a robust component line that is relatively inexpensive, durable, and functional...not necessarily the attack position of a company trying to gouge the little guy. Sure, Shimano has the Gucci level stuff too, but you don't have to buy it to enjoy mountain biking or any biking.

Not trying to piss anyone off, but that's a pretty huge blanket you threw over the industry, tomato paste.
 

irie

E*POWAH Elite World Champion
Subscriber
May 2, 2022
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Chichester, W.Sussex, UK
Highest gross profit margin I know of is...............................Coffee in a coffee shop..............we should all boycott them ( not least because the coffee is invariably horrible anyway!)............. :ROFLMAO:
Highest profit margin I know of is on soft drinks in pubs, which is why publicans welcome motorcyclists.
 

tomato paste

Active member
Mar 18, 2019
220
141
Germany
Right, so the place to get your data is not the guy at your bike shop. And no, I won't share client data. But I certainly would like to.

And no, coffee shops aren't high margin businesses. Also, wow there are a lot of guys who work for bike firms on this forum who don't like this being shared. Feel free to post financial statements to refute. Not recommended, but would be enjoyable to watch.
 

Levo comp

Member
Jun 16, 2023
117
173
Norway
Highest gross profit margin I know of is...............................Coffee in a coffee shop..............we should all boycott them ( not least because the coffee is invariably horrible anyway!)............. :ROFLMAO:

Right, so the place to get your data is not the guy at your bike shop. And no, I won't share client data. But I certainly would like to.

And no, coffee shops aren't high margin businesses. Also, wow there are a lot of guys who work for bike firms on this forum who don't like this being shared. Feel free to post financial statements to refute. Not recommended, but would be enjoyable to watch.
You're right coffee shops (just coffebean is ~95%) aren't high margin shops because you have to include all other costs in the accounts and you also have to do that in the e-bike industry, so do you know what costs the individual companies have before sales? In Norway it's easy to check since all company accounts is public
 

arTNC

New Member
Feb 1, 2024
70
119
Texas
Right, so the place to get your data is not the guy at your bike shop. And no, I won't share client data. But I certainly would like to.

And no, coffee shops aren't high margin businesses. Also, wow there are a lot of guys who work for bike firms on this forum who don't like this being shared. Feel free to post financial statements to refute. Not recommended, but would be enjoyable to watch.
Hmmm...you want others to post financial statements but you won't. Aren't you the one who brought up this topic, therefore the burden of proof is on you, right?

And don't take that challenge as mean or hateful. A claim made is a claim that requires some level of proof. Proof that you say you have. Things are hard enough on the internet to take as gospel, but if you can't share the data then maybe the issue shouldn't have been mentioned.
 

LeftItLancs

Member
Apr 12, 2021
64
53
North UK
The price of an EMTB is likely inflated by 50-80%, depending on the brand/model.
I agree, including taking into account global supply chain issues a few years ago and including recent ish high inflation, prices still appear to remain stubbornly high and including at the lower and mid-range.

Asian markets currently have some of the highest growth and if manufacturing costs have reduced, in a global market, it usually signals lower prices across the board. Unfortunately, all corporatism is at it, and not just in the ebike sector. The trickle-down theory is trickling upwards as the poor get poorer and the 5% get richer.

While demand outstrips supply and consumers still have the mindset that they are purchasing a "luxury item" there is no incentive for the main manufacturers to lower prices. The big players such as Bosch and Shimano have cornered the market, and that market caters for financially solvent middle-aged men who have the financial clout to purchase these shiny new toys. In effect, status symbols.

"Get a better job" is the mindset of these people, they have no idea how the other half live, and you will get no sympathy from them while they debate spending £100s on simple add-ons that alone are priced well above the minimum wage.
 

arTNC

New Member
Feb 1, 2024
70
119
Texas
I agree, including taking into account global supply chain issues a few years ago and including recent ish high inflation, prices still appear to remain stubbornly high and including at the lower and mid-range.

Asian markets currently have some of the highest growth and if manufacturing costs have reduced, in a global market, it usually signals lower prices across the board. Unfortunately, all corporatism is at it, and not just in the ebike sector. The trickle-down theory is trickling upwards as the poor get poorer and the 5% get richer.

While demand outstrips supply and consumers still have the mindset that they are purchasing a "luxury item" there is no incentive for the main manufacturers to lower prices. The big players such as Bosch and Shimano have cornered the market, and that market caters for financially solvent middle-aged men who have the financial clout to purchase these shiny new toys. In effect, status symbols.

"Get a better job" is the mindset of these people, they have no idea how the other half live, and you will get no sympathy from them while they debate spending £100s on simple add-ons that alone are priced well above the minimum wage.
Again, most of those commenting here are in Europe. In the U.S. I see bike prices from our main 3 brands Trek, Specialized, and Santa Cruz dropping on many models...especially the higher end models. Their inventory is quite high, and that's something I can see by looking in our dealer order pages. Components from someone like Fox suspension are also lower priced right now. Are things that different in Europe right now?
 

Rando_12345

Active member
Nov 16, 2022
181
245
France
It's a mix of supply and demand on one side, and overheads on the other.

Most obvious example of overheads is the direct sales brands: canyon, yt and commencal all used to sell ebikes starting around 4k. They all went a bit nuts with marketing videos and race teams, yt pulled back a lot on these, canyon has the teams but less of the video side and commencal kept going with the weekly amazing edits and huge race/freeride teams. Nowadays YT can sell you an ok priced carbon ebike, canyon have a bit of everything including a few affordable models, commencal have lost the plot with massively expensive, somewhat basic aluminium ebikes. And I doubt commencal can actually stay profitable selling their bikes for less despite huge markups, until they fire most of the video production and race teams at least...
 

LeftItLancs

Member
Apr 12, 2021
64
53
North UK
Again, most of those commenting here are in Europe. In the U.S. I see bike prices from our main 3 brands Trek, Specialized, and Santa Cruz dropping on many models...especially the higher end models. Their inventory is quite high, and that's something I can see by looking in our dealer order pages. Components from someone like Fox suspension are also lower priced right now. Are things that different in Europe right now?
There is less competition in Europe.

It's a big issue throughout Europe but particularly in the UK. Without politicising it too much, the mindset and the only solution, and including on this thread, is "work harder". In an era of ideological austerity where someone on the minimum wage can't work any damn harder than they already are. A good quality, reliable ebike, is the difference between working or not working. Particularly economic migrants on the minimum wage and who simply can't afford to splash out for even a basic Bosch hard tail.

It is inherent snobbery, status symbols, it's a British thing.
 

irie

E*POWAH Elite World Champion
Subscriber
May 2, 2022
1,881
1,800
Chichester, W.Sussex, UK
Right, so the place to get your data is not the guy at your bike shop. And no, I won't share client data. But I certainly would like to.

And no, coffee shops aren't high margin businesses. Also, wow there are a lot of guys who work for bike firms on this forum who don't like this being shared. Feel free to post financial statements to refute. Not recommended, but would be enjoyable to watch.
Ooh, another conspiracy theorist!
laugh.gif
 

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