Avinox Reveals its Motor Gearbox

[atopman]

It is ultimately still a concept, and whilst I believe it will get to production and be picked up by brands, that’s still 2028 onwards so still a couple of years at least to enjoy whatever it is people have purchased.

Early adopters always suffer though, it’s why I always wait for v2 or v3 of something, learnt that lesson decades ago.

For some, buying and owning the latest greatest thing to get the dopamine hit is the hobby, which is fair enough if pockets are matching.

Most will want it here and now then wonder why it has teething problems but that's the chance you take having the very newest thing out and has not really been tested in the real world as you say.

 

[Flog]

Well done DJI for this innovation: 2 years after their first motor.
Shimano, Bosch, Sram deserve the consequences of their lack of innovation over the last 10+ years.

Going to be so awesome to pedal out of the corner and be in the right "ratio" with no chain skipping.

Perhaps they just nicked it off Pinion.....?

 

[nickf]

I'm less enthusiastic about these gearbox bikes than most of you.

The idea is great, but it's far from new. Honda built a downhill bike with a gearbox more than 20 years ago, and it was revolutionary. They even had to hide the bikes in the pits, and to this day the Honda RN01 remains a masterpiece of engineering.

View attachment 187445

Yes it was clever, but wasn't it just a derailleur in a box above the chainset? Not exactly new technology.

 

[DylanJM]

Yes it was clever, but wasn't it just a derailleur in a box above the chainset? Not exactly new technology.

It was, makes no sense to compare it to what Gobao/Avninox showed yesterday.

 

[Str1fe]

Yes it was clever, but wasn't it just a derailleur in a box above the chainset? Not exactly new technology.

It was, makes no sense to compare it to what Gobao/Avninox showed yesterday.

My analogy was more about the concept of an evolutionary step for mountain bike drivetrains than about the specific technology itself.

We still lack a lot of information about the Avinox system: real-world testing, pricing, weight, long-term reliability, and so on.

That said, if a gearbox system eventually proves to be a relevant and competitive solution, I'm definitely in!

 

[DylanJM]

I'm surprised at the people commenting who think this thing is going to arrive to the market assume sort of unrefined gen 1 product that won't work well. Avinox did not do that with the M1, they did all the hard work before hand and brought a very mature product to market when it launched. I am sure they will follow the same approach with this. I am sure Gobao will do the same if the rumored partnership is true.

 

[Fangs2k]

Years ago, DJI killed the drone market. They took competitors completely out (like GoPro who released their drone when DJI released their first Mavic). They will kill the emtb market too.

DJI dominate the consumer drone market, it’s true. But, not so in the enterprise space, nor military. Other Chinese comoanies like Potensic also make some fantastic drones and undercut the DJI ones.

GoPro have hardly been taken out either, they’re still here with the Mission 1 cinema cameras, aerospace and defence imaging products as well as still selling action cameras at the higher end of the market.

Will they kill the EMTB market too? Not so sure, but they’re certainly disrupting it which I say overall is a good thing. Bosch are a very diversified business, e-bike motors are a tiny part of it, so I think they’ll be ok and they’re still capable of pulling something out of the bag, spurred on by the competition.

The company that DJI/Avinox most need to fear is probably one that we haven’t heard much of yet, and it’ll likely be Chinese. Competition doesn’t stop at the Chinese border.

 

[Fangs2k]

I'm surprised at the people commenting who think this thing is going to arrive to the market assume sort of unrefined gen 1 product that won't work well. Avinox did not do that with the M1

Just to be clear, I was making the point that the early adopters of each new to market product generally suffer as they pay a premium, and v2 of the product is inevitably better, not that v1 will suck/won’t work.

I’m sure the MGU ‘1’ will work just fine, but MGU ‘2’ will be better, in fact the M1 motor you mention proves that point.

 

[CoolDown]

Are we going to wondering what the pedals are for ?
The experience is increasingly based on assistance and battery size... but okay, you're going to say I'm boring.

Avinox is in the future, thankfully they're here anyway, a new motor every 6 months is very questionable though given the investment required to buy a NEW ebike.

I'm wondering about the feel of a continuously variable transmission; the riding experience will be very different from a traditional bike or a light asssit.

 

[Roughshod]

Been watching Eurobike vids and saw a side on shot of the Megamo Reborn. Quite like the marble and red paint job.

 

[TheKaiser]

I'm less enthusiastic about these gearbox bikes than most of you.

The idea is great, but it's far from new. Honda built a downhill bike with a gearbox more than 20 years ago, and it was revolutionary. They even had to hide the bikes in the pits, and to this day the Honda RN01 remains a masterpiece of engineering.

View attachment 187445
The original plan was to sell the bike to the public, but Honda eventually cancelled the project because it was far too expensive and, more importantly, too difficult for most riders to service.

Honda mechanics reportedly had to disassemble and rebuild the gearbox after every race.

Downhill racing is the Formula 1 of mountain biking, so if you want to see what's coming next, that's where you should look. Some brands are still developing gearbox-equipped DH bikes, and we may see them become more common in the future, but there are still many challenges to overcome.

For this reason, the current trend in downhill is moving more toward electronic systems, active suspension technologies, and other performance-focused innovations.

Right now, Avinox is at the top of its game, and it makes sense for them to capitalize on their success by pushing new concepts. But an eMTB with a gearbox could become a real headache for many riders when it comes to maintenance. At some point, servicing your mountain bike could end up costing more than servicing your car.

If manufacturers also release a new product every six months, it quickly makes existing products feel obsolete, which is never great for customers.

Most importantly, we should wait and see how these bikes actually come together. If they're still prototypes, there's a reason for that. From what I've heard from Commençal's chief engineer, integrating a gearbox into a modern mountain bike involves a lot of compromises and engineering constraints.

The day we get a truly reliable, efficient, and service-friendly gearbox for our MTB or eMTB, it will be fantastic. But history tends to repeat itself, and the MTB industry has shown us time and time again that gearbox projects often struggle to deliver on their promises and sometimes end up being commercial failures. Wait and see...

I agree with you on the "Wait and see" part, however this type of eCVT is wholly different from the "Derailleur in a box" that Honda was using. Plus pro DH bikes get rebuilt after every race anyway.

I'm not saying there isn't room for anything to go wrong with these eCVTs, but it should be quite possible for them to build it to be maintenance free (or at least as maintenance free as our current ebike motors are considered to be). Even if maintenance is required on a traditional gearbox, it can be very user friendly, as is seen on the Pinion units, where you just change the oil periodically like in a car, and it is far less frequent and more idiot proof than a lot of other bike maintenance.

 

[TheKaiser]

The Avinox MGU doesn’t promise to blow up just the e-bike industry, it promises to blow up the entire cycling industry or at least the mountain bike and commuter segments. Derailleurs are exposed, fragile, and inefficient.

Your assertion only holds true if the "entire cycling industry" is going to switch to e-bikes, which is basically impossible due to the cost increase associated with this tech, and many riders aversion to electronic complications. The impact of this design will absolutely be limited to "just the e-bike industry". There is no way to put an eCVT on an unpowered bike.

 

[Peter Hill]

Avinox MG Concept: no derailleur, no cassette, infinite gearing

Avinox has shown its new MG Concept at Eurobike.

MG stands for Motor Gearbox, but the interesting bit is that this isn’t just a normal gearbox motor. From my interview, Avinox described it as using stepless virtual gearing.

That means no traditional rear drivetrain:

• No derailleur
• No cassette
• No fixed mechanical gear steps
• Gear changes in around 0.1 sec
• Can be run as 4 gears, 5 gears, 12 gears, or full auto
• AI-supported auto shifting
• Similar power target to M2S
• Chain or belt compatible
• Potential motor lock anti-theft
• Regen braking being explored

The best way to think about it:

A normal bike has fixed gears, like steps.

This is more like a ramp. The system has effectively infinite ratios underneath, then the software lets you decide how you want that gearing to feel.

Avinox had concept bikes from Canyon, Commencal, Mondraker and Forbidden using the MG system.

Still only a concept, likely not production until next year, but this could be one of the biggest drivetrain changes in eMTB for years.

Just when you think you have your 'forever' e-bike, Avinox comes along with this, sounds like the perfect system.
Please slow down the development I cant afford to keep up!

 

[Suns_PSD]

I'm still stoked on it. But I'm not certain that it'll wholesale replace what we use now for several reasons.
For one, I think it's still going to lose considerable efficiency and as such, require more battery to operate and therefore will gain weight.
But it's the 'soul' of biking that I'm afraid is being lost with all of this technology. A.I. motor/ transmission combo?! Sheesh.

 

[Ndanger]

Have to admit that I'm surprised that Avinox is showing the MGU unless it's REALLY ready for release.

Interesting, my take is that Gobao just took a bit of the wind out of their sails. I wonder if they were hoping to keep it under wraps till next year when closer to production and found it necessary to mention at Gobau's party that they are in the biz.

 

[haromania]

Did not read every resoonse so I apologize if this was covered... but one of the YouTube videos I saw claimed over 2K meters of climbing with the Canyon version? Which equates to over 6K feet where I live. That sounds like a bigger battery to me? Or its a much more effecient motor? Eother way, if I heard that right, that seems really great to me.

 

[TheKaiser]

Did not read every resoonse so I apologize if this was covered... but one of the YouTube videos I saw claimed over 2K meters of climbing with the Canyon version? Which equates to over 6K feet where I live. That sounds like a bigger battery to me? Or its a much more effecient motor? Eother way, if I heard that right, that seems really great to me.

A lot of the range depends on what power settings you are using, but 6k feet is a figure that a lot of people report for current motors with an 800wh battery, which is the largest currently available from Avinox. When the M2s motor launched, there was also talk about a new 900wh battery, but things have been quiet on that front ever since. It is unlikely that this eCVT motor is more efficient than the current setup, but 6k feet of climbing seems realistic to me even if it is 10% less efficient, if using the 900wh battery or a slightly lower power setting. If Avinox can hustle and get some batteries that equal the new Gobao batteries in weight, then the extra 10% capacity could potentially be achieved with no weight penalty.

 

[rugger]

My biggest hope at this point -- given we are suddenly seeing substantial changes year to year-- is that Avinox makes the motors swappable. No it doesn't outright make sense because it relies on partnerships who seemingly must sell new frames to stay alive, but nothing about DJI has been by the book either. We can buy new drivetrain on pedal bikes.... so one can only hope.

 

[Suns_PSD]

My biggest hope at this point -- given we are suddenly seeing substantial changes year to year-- is that Avinox makes the motors swappable. No it doesn't outright make sense because it relies on partnerships who seemingly must sell new frames to stay alive, but nothing about DJI has been by the book either. We can buy new drivetrain on pedal bikes.... so one can only hope.

Seems unlikely that the new motor would be retrofittable. Also, I was reading yesterday that even though the M2S can drop right in where the M1 was, no one can get them for many reasons. Not just high demand but also because in Europe, biks are sold as legal 'systems' and manufacturers cannot just swap a component out and roll on. The current product is clearly built as light and small as they could possibly make it. Don't see them just squeezing an entire CVT transmission into the same footprint but also, the kinematics will likely be further refined because you'll now have a constant chain line angle instead of one that varies by current gear selection.

 

[TimC7]

Seems unlikely that the new motor would be retrofittable. Also, I was reading yesterday that even though the M2S can drop right in where the M1 was, no one can get them for many reasons. Not just high demand but also because in Europe, biks are sold as legal 'systems' and manufacturers cannot just swap a component out and roll on. The current product is clearly built as light and small as they could possibly make it. Don't see them just squeezing an entire CVT transmission into the same footprint but also, the kinematics will likely be further refined because you'll now have a constant chain line angle instead of one that varies by current gear selection.

Seems to me if you could swap out an M2 for their MGU then you'd have to ditch the whole rear end, chain, derailleur etc and fit a belt drive. Feasible but maybe just buy a whole bike and swap your custom bits over . .

 

[G-Sport]

I'm still stoked on it. But I'm not certain that it'll wholesale replace what we use now for several reasons.
For one, I think it's still going to lose considerable efficiency and as such, require more battery to operate and therefore will gain weight.
But it's the 'soul' of biking that I'm afraid is being lost with all of this technology. A.I. motor/ transmission combo?! Sheesh.

It's going to be a long journey definitely. It will be less efficient, you can almost guarantee that, and probably enough to be noticeable. BUT, I really fancy the "auto" "shifting" without steps. Just being able to forget about the right thumb and ride at a fairly constant cadence up and down and down then suddenly up and never getting caught in the wrong gear again would be fantastic.
However, I also wonder how that would feel on a long ride, I think varying your cadence is an important part of endurance, if you stand up you need to drop to a much lower cadence compared to sitting, and even sitting for a long climb you probably want a bit of variation. Maybe AI will be able to detect this and make subtle changes at regular intervals just to keep it feeling natural, or maybe it will be horrible. Be fun seeing which though.

I just wish that they had announced a lower power, lower weight one too. The normalisation of 25kg bikes is horrible in my opinion. If 21kgs was standard and some bikes were heavier and more powerful and some were lighter and less powerful then I think it would be much better. I came from push bikes to an SL bike, and even Eco seemed like a lot, I slowly got more dependent on the motor and considered "up"grading to something more, but actually forcing myself back to eco has been really good (dog is better able to keep up if nothing else)..

 

[Pizzman]

Mole hills made into mountains.
These will not make cassette drivetrains obsolete.
These will give the riders who want something new and different just that.
Something new and different.
it’s an interesting tech. Have fun with it.

Back in my day, you looked ahead, anticipated your gearing needs, shifted to the appropriate gear and pedaled.
Back in my day….

 

[Brawwp]

I thought in one of the video gobao stated the entire motor/battery combo was only like 200g more than standard combo with derailleur/cassette. The big difference is 1-2lbs off the rear wheel which will for sure make the bike ride way better. So sure, overall a tiny bit more weight to lift into the truck, but a much better riding bike.

It has ability to make it shift like a normal bike, or full auto. So I don’t really see a downside to this. Shifting gears is fun, but it’s so bad. Even with the tech features out today it’s clunky, skips, bashes, etc. So if you like to shift it’ll just be how derailleur should feel.

I can also see auto being extremely fun. I agree it may take away some grassroots mtb feeling, but imagine how much more crafty you can get in auto. Just don’t even have to think about shift points to be able to take even crazier climb routes would be pretty awesome. Going from (brand I won’t mention to avoid argument) to Avinox made a big difference in the routes I take climbing and I can see this being another big jump. Stuff you didn’t see possible becoming fun to try.

 

[G-Sport]

Mole hills made into mountains.
These will not make cassette drivetrains obsolete.
These will give the riders who want something new and different just that.
Something new and different.
it’s an interesting tech. Have fun with it.

Back in my day, you looked ahead, anticipated your gearing needs, shifted to the appropriate gear and pedaled.
Back in my day….

Damn I'm old, I can remember the exact same type of comment about indexed gears... "no-one needs that, you need to be able to fine-tune it, just plan your shifts ahead on your fully rigid, rim braked, 15 speed, steel anchor"

 

[Pizzman]

Damn I'm old, I can remember the exact same type of comment about indexed gears... "no-one needs that, you need to be able to fine-tune it, just plan your shifts ahead on your fully rigid, rim braked, 15 speed, steel anchor"

I’m not anti new. I hope people enjoy the new tech.
There will be something newer after this….
Then after that,
I like innovation.
I just don’t have any current issues that require deletion.

 

[jeanjean]

I could ride an ecvt city bike a week ago (Decathlon with Owuru motor).
I'll not swap my Orbea Wild until ecvt mtbs are on the market.
To reply to an issue raised in a post above: you are not bind to a fix cadence but you can adjust it on the fly with the remote.
Pretty sure gobao and avinox will provide such a remote as well.

 

[TheKaiser]

Damn I'm old, I can remember the exact same type of comment about indexed gears... "no-one needs that, you need to be able to fine-tune it, just plan your shifts ahead on your fully rigid, rim braked, 15 speed, steel anchor"

A few of the retro randonneuring companies have started making new friction shifters, and some of the influencers in that world have been extolling the virtues of how they make you more "in tune" with your bike and require less maintenance, so that debate is still going on (albeit in a very small scale niche part of the cycling world)! Here's an example, which links to other examples: The Dust-Up: An Ode to Friction Shifting – Nic Morales

What's old is new again, and time is a flat circle!

 

[John_likes_bikes]

A few of the retro randonneuring companies have started making new friction shifters, and some of the influencers in that world have been extolling the virtues of how they make you more "in tune" with your bike and require less maintenance, so that debate is still going on (albeit in a very small scale niche part of the cycling world)! Here's an example, which links to other examples: The Dust-Up: An Ode to Friction Shifting – Nic Morales

What's old is new again, and time is a flat circle!

The people who ride with no seat on their seat post to be more "in tune" really strike me as an odd bunch.

 

[2WHLFUN]

Did not read every resoonse so I apologize if this was covered... but one of the YouTube videos I saw claimed over 2K meters of climbing with the Canyon version? Which equates to over 6K feet where I live. That sounds like a bigger battery to me? Or its a much more effecient motor? Eother way, if I heard that right, that seems really great to me.

I thought I heard that 6k climbing was with a 900wh battery. I hope there are options for a 600wh battery and 45lbs bike. I like running 30-40nm in most situations & my previously injured elbows & shoulders don't like hopping the bike around if it's over 45lbs.

 

[John_likes_bikes]

Did not read every resoonse so I apologize if this was covered... but one of the YouTube videos I saw claimed over 2K meters of climbing with the Canyon version? Which equates to over 6K feet where I live. That sounds like a bigger battery to me? Or its a much more effecient motor? Eother way, if I heard that right, that seems really great to me.

Based on Rob's video of his convo and short ride with Canyon it doesn't sound to me like the system is at the point of development it could be ridden to that extend or they'd give anyone that level of ride. These YT'ers will say anything for views these days so I trust most very little.... That said I almost always get a little over 2k m vert from my 800w and I'd expect anything new to be that or better. If an eCVT cut my current ride duration/elevation even 10-15% at a similar weight I'd for sure stick with a derailleur.