Bosch Gen 5 Rumour - More Power updates coming!

[bmwpowere36m3]

Now imagine UE limit @ 25km/h (16mph).

I would happly pay Bosch and sign a legal document, where it would state I had a S-Pedalec (UE ebikes with 45km/h = 28mph.
Unfortunately not possible, nor it exist eMTB S-Pedalecs!
Meaning - I cannot buy legaly an S-Pedalec eMTB!
This is just ridiculous, even more since I already have insurance, and ride on remote trails...

It's not about max speed, but rather not having the boat anchor dragging as we go past 25km/h or 16mph.
Flash-jailbreak, was one of the best thing I did!

Speed limit is just hypocracy, because we have the Chip market that advertize and sell illegal devices.

What would be the difference between:
1) having a chip that is commercialy available
2) official flash, with legal document, signed by owner, starting it's not a Class XX

?

Its not worth the "risk" or effort to Bosch to have Mario Antony "sign" a legal document and then have to argue it later in court. Just because there's an illegal market for devices, doesn't mean manufacturers are going to make expections and risk their business.

You want to go faster, then derestrict... Bosch isn't stopping you from doing it.

I'd like to see them enable Class III mode, but the "writing is on the wall" as we say. Their stance on power, being conservative and threading lightly with respect to various regulations, I now doubt they ever allow switchable class modes. At least, for the time being.

I get it, but at the same time... just go buy an Avinox and have it all (power and class I/III). Their offering a package, which a LOT of consumers want. Hell, I want it too. Vote with your dollar.

 

[Suns_PSD]

I have class 3 on my 2026 Levo. But I don't use It, it burns through chains and cassettes too fast and not worth the cost!

It's going to be interesting reading about driveline wear over the next few months with these new uber powerful e-bike motors.
In particular the older inexperienced rider that just puts it in one gear and pedals is going to be shocked at the repair bills coming down the pipeline.
It certainly is time for E mountain bike drivetrains to evolve. When Sram designed Transmission I don't think they predicted that these things would go from 600 watts to 1500 watts in 24 months.

 

[F4Flyer]

Yeah, the more I think about it, the more a 28 MPH setting would be useful in some rare or committing occasions. They can easily restrict the watts and NM in that setting to make it a low-torque setup for fire roads, pavement, etc.

 

[ValActionT 750]

Nice, hopefully this power doesnt cause the motor to blow up though Putting everything at max for turbo, motor overrun control is nice, hopefully it will make the feeling a bit less on/off, I feel like even at my 85nm emtb mode the bike becomes sometimes hard to control with technical climbs.

There’s a cure for that. Drop down an assist and pedal. Actually I usually shift and increase cadence, or shift and power tru with muscle power off the saddle. Shifting your weight helps too. You can play with riding mode software to adjust power output along with how how soon/late it in comes on when you pause pedaling. It’s definitely a more fineness vs barreling, for me anyways.
I do wonder how much power we actually need to mtb vs emotoing.

 

[Mario Antony]

Its not worth the "risk" or effort to Bosch to have Mario Antony "sign" a legal document and then have to argue it later in court. Just because there's an illegal market for devices, doesn't mean manufacturers are going to make expections and risk their business.

You want to go faster, then derestrict... Bosch isn't stopping you from doing it.

I'd like to see them enable Class III mode, but the "writing is on the wall" as we say. Their stance on power, being conservative and threading lightly with respect to various regulations, I now doubt they ever allow switchable class modes. At least, for the time being.

I get it, but at the same time... just go buy an Avinox and have it all (power and class I/III). Their offering a package, which a LOT of consumers want. Hell, I want it too. Vote with your dollar.

You read the post out of their intend, and would like to clarify:

1) I'm ok with my 64km/h, flash.
2) Bosch is trying to control the market through rules and laws and all, why can't they understand that (some) riders are feedup with their BS, and just find alternatives to break those stupid rules?


And btw:

Having an ebike capable of Cat3 or S-pedallec, it should be classified has Cat3, not Cat1. All those rules, and cannot even control simple things....
Modifying a Cat1 ebike to Cat3, would risk what?

 

[F4Flyer]

I hope I am getting Ihe context of risk correct. If not, please ignore my post. Here in Colorado, we probably have 15,000 miles or 24,000 KM of trails....probably more than most countries have. Plenty to risk, since we are JUST getting eMTBs (Class 1s) to get access to them...same in Utah. I cannot speak for Washington - another awesome MTB area. It has to be done carefully and in conjunction with local and federal authorities, or we risk losing access to all that. That is a HUGE risk...the biggest risk for us in the US. I am happy to not have any Class 3 spillover if that is not workable.

 

[Bomble]

If I remember correctly, doesn’t EU law force Bosch to put in places measures to make it hard to derestrict?
I wouldn’t think these laws would bother or effect Avinox though.

 

[Suns_PSD]

It's not common on this particular forum where the Avinox excitement is through the roof; but I'm starting to see notable pushback on Avinox and their power levels from industry people and riders with real world experience.
If there was a magical world where all media refused to test class 3 bikes the problem would go away. But with YouTubers searching for clicks and being what they are, that's not going to happen.

 

[emtbPhil]

Is it correct that the 600% assiatance only works up to 15kph? Sounds like they are close to the limits of the hardware at this point.

If you watch the videos where Bosch talk about it - they decided to limit to under 15km/h so that the full power can be used for slow climbs but full power + speed = too much drivetrain wear

I'm a fan. extra power for slow steep techy climbs is a win. I have no interest in racing up hills at 20mph then buying a new chain every week

 

[Brawwp]

If you watch the videos where Bosch talk about it - they decided to limit to under 15km/h so that the full power can be used for slow climbs but full power + speed = too much drivetrain wear

I'm a fan. extra power for slow steep techy climbs is a win. I have no interest in racing up hills at 20mph then buying a new chain every week

I call bs. Why does Bosch care about drivechain wear?

I’ve put quite a few miles on my m1 and still on same drivechain. I guess if you’re a big boy that could be different, but just don’t slam into gears and it’s fine

 

[emtbPhil]

I call bs. Why does Bosch care about drivechain wear?

I’ve put quite a few miles on my m1 and still on same drivechain. I guess if you’re a big boy that could be different, but just don’t slam into gears and it’s fine

They added a warning in the app when you go to 100nm to say it reduces drivetrain lifespan - so I doubt they think 120nm and 600% is going to be better

One of my friends got an Avinox M2 bike 2 weeks ago and has snapped 2 chains already

Not that any of this matters - the Avinox echo chamber will continue to just state that Bosch motors are worse, and Bosch motor owners will just continue enjoying their bikes

 

[bmwpowere36m3]

You read the post out of their intend, and would like to clarify:

1) I'm ok with my 64km/h, flash.
2) Bosch is trying to control the market through rules and laws and all, why can't they understand that (some) riders are feedup with their BS, and just find alternatives to break those stupid rules?


And btw:

Having an ebike capable of Cat3 or S-pedallec, it should be classified has Cat3, not Cat1. All those rules, and cannot even control simple things....
Modifying a Cat1 ebike to Cat3, would risk what?

lost in translation...

1) ok
2) that's their prerogative and rules are the rules... folks break all kinds of rules.

eMTB riders want a class III ebike to commute to trails quicker, but most if not all trails limit access to class I (at least in US). So having a switchable class mode is desirable and would allow folks to abide by the law. If you just buy a class III ebike, then you can't legally operate it on trails. Plus, I can't recall ever seeing a proper class III MTB.

The reality is folks are going to either:

• ride in class III on the road and switch back to class I on trail
• ride in class III everywhere
• DGAF

At least with a switchable class mode, it puts the responsibility on the rider to make good choices. Just purely unlocking ebikes and letting consumers have at it is foolish and unrealistic given specific laws on the matter exist.... even if you disagree with them.

You should be happy the possibility to derestrict exists, otherwise you'd seriously be unhappy.

 

[bmwpowere36m3]

I hope I am getting Ihe context of risk correct. If not, please ignore my post. Here in Colorado, we probably have 15,000 miles or 24,000 KM of trails....probably more than most countries have. Plenty to risk, since we are JUST getting eMTBs (Class 1s) to get access to them...same in Utah. I cannot speak for Washington - another awesome MTB area. It has to be done carefully and in conjunction with local and federal authorities, or we risk losing access to all that. That is a HUGE risk...the biggest risk for us in the US. I am happy to not have any Class 3 spillover if that is not workable.

Haven't you heard... fake news

I find myself getting caught up, but at the end of the day I don't have any control over what Avinox or Bosch do, what consumers demand, regulations manufacturers try to sway, and to a lesser extent laws politicians implement.

Avinox has set the bar higher, I'm sure they believe and have gotten consult into what their delivering is legal. Now time will tell how governments and organizations will react, if at all.

 

[bmwpowere36m3]

There’s a cure for that. Drop down an assist and pedal. Actually I usually shift and increase cadence, or shift and power tru with muscle power off the saddle. Shifting your weight helps too. You can play with riding mode software to adjust power output along with how how soon/late it in comes on when you pause pedaling. It’s definitely a more fineness vs barreling, for me anyways.
I do wonder how much power we actually need to mtb vs emotoing.

Assist vs. Throttle if you boil it down...

I remember my first eMTB rides, only last year, with a EP801 and I thought to myself... man this bike uphill in trail/turbo is moto'ish. Giggling uphill and not breathing through my eyes on some steep stuff. Coming from years of putting in the "work" during rides, the eMTB was just pure fun.

There's a spectrum of how riders enjoy their eMTB and their trails. Even before eMTBs, for some it was all about the DH. They didn't care about technical climbing, joy in suffering and accomplishing a nasty climb. Other's enjoy nice ribbons of singletrack, equally up and down. Or folks all about the tech, slow speed, trials'y maneuvers. For most, its some mix of all the above.

If your trail of choice is a fireroad, double track, gravel, paved one to the top... then having the most powerful motor will get you up quicker and with less effort. If your trail is technical, then there's going to be a limit on the amount of power that's useable.

I think high assistance ratios steer eMTBs closer towards emotos. I'll gladly breath out my eyes for 1/3 the time on a long uphill, if I can blast up it at 15+ MPH. I'll get a similar MTB suffer, albiet for a shorter duration, and I'll finish the climb faster. For me, at this moment in my life, its about maximizing my time when I hop on my eMTB... otherwise I'll ride my analog.

There's also the benefit of putting in less work when your "cooked", recovering from rides or health. Let the rider choose I suppose.

 

[Fangs2k]

Just because there's an illegal market for devices

It’s not illegal to buy a device to de-restrict an EMTB, the illegality comes from installing and using such a thing on public land, just to be clear.

2) Bosch is trying to control the market through rules and laws and all, why can't they understand that (some) riders are feedup with their BS, and just find alternatives to break those stupid rules?

Bosch don’t make the rules/law, but it is their job to comply with them if they’re selling their products into market.

If I remember correctly, doesn’t EU law force Bosch to put in places measures to make it hard to derestrict?
I wouldn’t think these laws would bother or effect Avinox though.

The law in Europe does specify that their should be an effort to prevent ‘tampering’ but the bar probably isnt very high and I’ve never heard of a case where it’s been tested/challenged.

Avinox has set the bar higher, I'm sure they believe and have gotten consult into what their delivering is legal. Now time will tell how governments and organizations will react, if at all.

I believe that the Avinox motors are compliant with the rules/law, otherwise they couldn’t legally be sold (here in the UK/EU at least) but perhaps there is a grey area with how easy they are to de-restrict.

But, as said earlier, de-restricting isn’t illegal for use on private land or on public land if you jump through the hoops ref registration/e-moped type approval/insurance etc. The problems will come, here in the UK at least, when the same bikes hit the public trails (and I’m not naive enough to believe that any of them will actually be registered/plated etc.

There’s no need to over complicate things, there is no great Bosch conspiracy or any desire to control people, just a company building something compliant with the law that they can sell. Lobbying for a status quo isn’t the same thing, and many large companies do it along with formulating social responsibility policies, however many people think it may be BS.

 

[nickf]

If you watch the videos where Bosch talk about it - they decided to limit to under 15km/h so that the full power can be used for slow climbs but full power + speed = too much drivetrain wear

I am not commenting on whether or not that's good logic, but the reason why the 600% support doesn't go past 15kph is simply because that's a restriction imposed by German regulations.

Also be careful not to confuse 600% support with full power. If you're only putting in 50W of leg power you'll only get 300W of motor power even with a 600% support level.

Conversely, even at a lower support level you could still get full 750W power if you put in sufficient muscular effort (but that's a dying sport, apparently ).

 

[TG73]

I think the EU and UK position is slightly more complex than people think. The law/regulations haven't been set by the push bike industry or Bosch. They have been set by the Motorbike industry, i.e. what makes something a moped. This situation is about as old as motorbikes themselves as far as I can tell. The original motorbikes evolved from bicycles, someone added a petroal engine to a bike frame and there it was. The motorbike regulations dictate when a bicycle becomes a moped and then a motorcycle. From what I can see, when ebikes arrived in anger, Bosch was involved in discussions with the motorbike industry to agree new limits (probably because of it automotive background). The motorbike industry/regulators wanted them all as mopeds, so really we've got Bosch to thank for ebikes not being classed as mopeds.
Maybe Bosch are cautious because of that Background, they know the effort it took originally to get to this position. I think that's why you'll see them, stick to the 750W, 16mph limit, 250 average etc. I don't think torque ever came into it. Avinox don't have that background / baggage.
I guess it will go one of 2 ways, Avinox will force the regulations to change / update, or the Motorbike Industry will start forcing enforcement because they will loose sales of mopeds, I guess we'll have to see what happens

"a moped (Category AM) is legally defined as a two-wheeled vehicle with an engine size under 50cc or 4kW electric, a maximum design speed of 15.5--28mph, and a maximum weight of 425kg"

 

[notaninfluencer]

Bosch presentation, question and answer session with Claus Fleischer

Moderator : Copied from the other thread as it also relates to this thread

 

[bmwpowere36m3]

It’s not illegal to buy a device to de-restrict an EMTB, the illegality comes from installing and using such a thing on public land, just to be clear.


Bosch don’t make the rules/law, but it is their job to comply with them if they’re selling their products into market.


The law in Europe does specify that their should be an effort to prevent ‘tampering’ but the bar probably isnt very high and I’ve never heard of a case where it’s been tested/challenged.


I believe that the Avinox motors are compliant with the rules/law, otherwise they couldn’t legally be sold (here in the UK/EU at least) but perhaps there is a grey area with how easy they are to de-restrict.

But, as said earlier, de-restricting isn’t illegal for use on private land or on public land if you jump through the hoops ref registration/e-moped type approval/insurance etc. The problems will come, here in the UK at least, when the same bikes hit the public trails (and I’m not naive enough to believe that any of them will actually be registered/plated etc.

There’s no need to over complicate things, there is no great Bosch conspiracy or any desire to control people, just a company building something compliant with the law that they can sell. Lobbying for a status quo isn’t the same thing, and many large companies do it along with formulating social responsibility policies, however many people think it may be BS.

Potayto, potahto... as we say. 99% of consumers derestricting are going to ride on public land. Like I said, I'm sure what Avinox is delivering is "legal", but I think there's a gray area for the US as regulation call out 750 and 1000W without very clear language to define thermal, continuous or peak.

 

[Harryworth02]

Does anyone know what time the update will be available on the 4th May?

 

[Polar]

Are you afraid the train is leaving the platform before you arrive?

 

[Harryworth02]

Are you afraid the train is leaving the platform before you arrive?

Nah just going out for a big ride tomorrow and wanted to try it out if it got released early on

 

[slavio]

Talking from experience of the previous Performance Update it may be days for some people to get it. There are several factors at play which drive availability:

1/ Apple/Google Play Store availability - not entirely sure about Apple but Google Store avaialbility of the new Flow app version may depend on a country. Google makes applications available in waves for certain countires and not as 'big bang'. If memory serves me well users with iPhones were the first ones to get the updated version of the Flow app
2/ Bike Manufacturer - some bike manufacturers need to explicitly approve these updates from their end. I recall with previous updates Scott owners had to wait couple of weeks before the update was released for their bikes.

 

[Suns_PSD]

I don't have a Gen 4 but I think it's really cool that Bosch is providing free updates to their older platform as well.

 

[Bruno Lapa]

Bosch presentation, question and answer session with Claus Fleischer

In the video, Mr. Claus Fleischer talks about an Easter egg in the upcoming Bosch performance update 2.0 (only one day to go! ): enabling (?) traction control, for example, in Turbo mode, by setting the slider to -2, in Dynamic (my guess is he was just referring to TC sensitivity).

Too bad the Drivetrain tensioner (in eMTB and eMTB+, according to Mr. Claus, but I’ve read elsewhere it is available in eMTB+ and Race modes) will only be released in a future update, in the middle of 2026.
The overrun/ extended boost will probably also not be configurable in the 4th may update.

One question he wasn’t asked was when (later in the year), you’re able to lower the battery charging limit to 80% in the Flow app, if this will also work when charging the battery independently/ out of the ebike (it should be possible if the configuration is sent to/ stored in the battery)…

 

[501AM]

I don't have a Gen 4 but I think it's really cool that Bosch is providing free updates to their older platform as well.

There are still dealers that have bikes sitting with CX4 motors, so Bosch is probably just trying to help move them and not make them totally obsolete as the CX5 just gets more and more updates.

 

[Heated]

I call bs. Why does Bosch care about drivechain wear?

I’ve put quite a few miles on my m1 and still on same drivechain. I guess if you’re a big boy that could be different, but just don’t slam into gears and it’s fine

I believe this is more marketing, most ebikers i've ever seen/met are not nice to the drivetrain and I've seen alot break chains - ive even seen shimano Cassettes break.
Marketing for saving money is Huge in other markets.

 

[Hrides]

The drivetrain tensioner is a great idea, but it will need to be configured well by Bosch to not fight with any anti pedal kick-back system? Hopefully it can be manually turned off just in case.

I have just fitted the Dt-Swiss anti kick back system (already had the correct hubs) to my enduro emtb and it made a huge difference when sending into some high speed chunk. More important to me that any power upgrade.

 

[russ_e]

Not released yet on Google Play in Europe.

 

[slavio]

Not released yet on Google Play in Europe.

No surprises there - it was very similar with the 100Nm Performance Update - had to wait couple of days for it to show in Google Play Store