Surely motor power regs don’t include the rider’s output also?
Bosch Gen 5 Rumour - More Power updates coming!
- Thread starter elesdee
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They don't include rider POWER input in the max 750w. But the CADENCE is half of the power equation. Once the rider spins to a particular cadence, multiplied by the torque, at some cadence the power (watts) would go right past 750 watts. That's why as cadence increases, they have to dial back the NM.
Think of the Bosch like a diesel engine, torquey at low RPM but doesn't continue to accelerate (increase power) at high RPM. If you were always pedaling your CX (around 95 RPM) to maximize watts already, you'll feel no difference with this update. If on the other hand you spend some time at lower cadences, it'll feel notably stronger. Most offroad riders spend a lot more time at lower cadences than they realize.
The Bosch SX is the exact opposite. It needs really high cadence to access its full power so it's more like a high-strung sports car.
That said, if you were expecting Avinox levels of power, this ain't it and Bosch aren't going there. The updated Bosch might feel very similar to the Avinox up to a certain cadence, just guessing, maybe up to 60 rpms or so. But if you spin faster the Avinox is just going to motor away. Still, this might really fit the bill for closing the gap for someone, for example, climbing a fire road as I never see these people spinning fast.
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bmwpowere36m3
Member
WTF… up to 15 km/h and then it drops to 400%?! Sorry, but what a pointless load of nonsense. If Bosch doesn’t bring out a new, competitive system next year, that’s it. Most people look at the specs, and 1500 watts is simply double 750… and again — only up to 15 km/h?! This update is, and remains, a complete scam.
Everything else also feels extremely outdated compared to Avinox. Even the charger isn’t coming until the end of ’26?! China is just miles ahead of us… unfortunately.
Hopefully Bosch at least communicates the 15 km/h limit properly everywhere…
By the way, the motor is now also much louder than before the update!
ZIV, German bicycle industry is where is came from...
translation from google AI:
The current provisions in Regulation (EU) 168/2013 regarding continuous rated power and maximum assistance speed are appropriate and should be maintained.
From the perspective of the ZIV (Two-Wheeler Industry Association), the following additional parameters characterize an EPAC:
- Assistance ratio of 1:4 and
- Assistance ratio of 1:6 possible up to max. 15 km/h and
- Maximum assistance power at the drive wheel of 750 W and
- Max. 250 kg total weight for single-track EPACs or
- Max. 300 kg total weight for multi-track EPACs
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bmwpowere36m3
Member
I don't think it will, watch the Velomotion video (I used auto-translate CC). They describe it as small "boosts" of power (to 120 Nm) when you apply "peak" power. The Bosch system is monitoring your ride profile, average power/torque, and senses when you have these "peaks" in input power and then gives you the 120 Nm.
Not a continous 120Nm even if you maintain low cadence. I posted a graph from their video, showing its just a small bump in power and back down to 100Nm levels.
This one is interesting to me.
A few pages back I mentioned that Bosch was pretty conservative with the 750w limit, only testing about 700w. In the chart above I notice 2 things:
1) I think that a LOT more people spend time in that 20-45 cadence range than they care to admit, yours truly included. So there is a 'grunt' difference that will be felt. Think about when you come out of a turn and pedal up something steep, you rarely are spinning legs really fast but instead are more likely to stand and mash.
2) But even at very high cadences, they are showing about a 20 watt bump. They are playing a bit closer to the 750 w limit with this new tune. So besides the tq bump down low, I think you'll feel a difference everywhere.
As I said before, if you need the really high power, you need to buy the Avinox. In spite of the fact that nearly everyone says it's just not very useful. I don't have road climbs, nor even know anyone with an Avinox, so it's not needed for me.
20-45 is extremely slow. Looks like my GB rides have lower averages than south side, probably due to technical sections and not pedaling. My average is still 80 and it looks like I never pedal below 60
I grabbed these screenshots from Knut's video above as I thought they were interesting as they have normalized the climbing times and cadences, then they used power pedals to see how much rider input it takes to accomplish the more or less equal times (they were all within about 3 seconds, hard to get it exact). He didn't have a test for the Avinox at 115 RPMS, but who the heck spins that fast anyways!
The point being that it really takes some significant cadence before there is a huge difference. Interesting to note that the Shimano is grunty!
*The Avinox input watts were with the M1 at its initial power level of 850w. I don't know if the M2s only delivers its extra power at high RPMS, or does it do it everywhere?
The point being that it really takes some significant cadence before there is a huge difference. Interesting to note that the Shimano is grunty!
*The Avinox input watts were with the M1 at its initial power level of 850w. I don't know if the M2s only delivers its extra power at high RPMS, or does it do it everywhere?
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Matt, you're a proper biker though and ride your acoustic tons. But you averaged 82 rpm. At 82 rpm the Bosch 120NM takes less rider pedal input power than the Avinox 850 motor does at the same cadence. At a cadence of 100 rpm, the Bosch 120 needs 10 more rider input watts to achieve the same time as the Avinox 850. So, it's quite a competitive power level with what was considered an absurd amount of power just 1 month ago.
PS. I'm glad you are rained out as it makes me feel better about missing so many rides with this knee!
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bmwpowere36m3
Member
He doesn't compare to new M2/M2S or M1 with 1000W update... at the end of the day, the Avinox motors are capable of more power no matter how you want to slice it.
The 2.0 Bosch update makes the motor "feel more powerful" at low cadence because the the 600% assist, which used to be only 340%. They are not testing near maximum power outputs of the motors with sub 100W inputs.
Again, I don't believe the 120Nm is what helping in his particular test, but solely the 600% update.
I had a note in my original post stating that but went ahead and bolded it.
But ultimately, I agree, the M2s is a MUCH more powerful motor.
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Mario Antony
Active member
Bosch has good products and ideas:
- eMTB+
- Extended Boost
- Tracking/alarm and all those things
The issue of having a product for dual use - Offroad and road/city -is that manufacturers have to comply with Rules & Law.
600% up to 15km/h = this must be a joke!
For those with flash motors, I supose it's good news, if no issue is presented after update.
Let's see:
- Speed limit up to 64km/h
- 600% up to 30km/h
- 2m of extended boost ---> I would really like up to 1.5 to 2 bike lenght.
Yes...yes... it's only for the outlaws that "jailbreak" the motor
EDIT
Bosch is lobbying everything to their favor, but the market is not there!
- eMTB+
- Extended Boost
- Tracking/alarm and all those things
The issue of having a product for dual use - Offroad and road/city -is that manufacturers have to comply with Rules & Law.
600% up to 15km/h = this must be a joke!
For those with flash motors, I supose it's good news, if no issue is presented after update.
Let's see:
- Speed limit up to 64km/h
- 600% up to 30km/h
- 2m of extended boost ---> I would really like up to 1.5 to 2 bike lenght.
Yes...yes... it's only for the outlaws that "jailbreak" the motor
EDIT
Bosch is lobbying everything to their favor, but the market is not there!
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I was starting to wonder if something had happened to him (last video was about 5 months ago) and I wondered what he thought of the new m2s, glad to see he's ok.
Bosch has been building electric motors for a century; they sell millions per year in at least 100s of different configurations if not 1000s. They have the capability to build absolutely anything they want in this space.
They are choosing to remain in Class 1 compliance, maintain the features that are preferable for this application (i.e. chain ring protection, low pedaling resistance, water resistance, low noise, etc.) and also maintain a level of reliability that is consistent with their internal requirements.
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Duffman
New Member
- Apr 14, 2026
- 9
- 15
Novel idea, keeping within class 1 and not pissing off land managers or creating more user conflict... The amount of power on tap before the update is already a ridiculous amount.
Mario Antony
Active member
yes...yes...yes...
Bosch is HUGE company... and with over 140years existence.
AND, btw, I like the brand, and have their products around the house (not only ebike).
Thing is
Bosch is taking the Lawyer Team, lobbying for Laws & Rules to defeat their competition, not by their Engineering Team and through R&D!
So yeah... Bosch is rellying on CREATING rules and outcasting all others. Rather than competing at a R&D level.
PS- I'm not talking only about MO'POWA!
Bosch wants to comply with those regulations, but that way they'll never be able to evolve the CX to compete with Avinox. Why not start with a Bosch SX and try to make a 2kg, 750w motor, 600% up to 15% efficiency... and develop new generation batteries? Perhaps then they'll have a good opportunity to regain market share.
German motor companies (too many to mention) has just discovered China outperform everything in the EV market and why shouldn't the same happen in emtb - Avinox has just started the Chinese expansion to the rest of the world.
I bet within a couple of years there will be several new motors with technology no one even dreamed of all from China.
China is eating established motors to the bone.
Unfortunately has EU and USA been sleeping on their high horse.
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Mario Antony
Active member
************************************
This is completly Offtopic, and can be erase afterwards - don't care.
************************************
I could agree with all, but UE is digging our grave!
China companies, are protected/are owned by their Goverment.
Who can compete with that?
In UE:
1- Tax ICE vehicles, tax fuel, tax everything that is ICE!
2- you have MILLIONS working on the traditional auto industry (I mean ICE)
3- You start subsidising EVs, where MOST parts are source from ASIA, or the car is from ASIA. Presently no one pays a dime in Taxes for their EV --> it will change in the near future. Just a matter of time.
You play this over, and over, and over, year after year...and in a few years, everyone will ask why we're where we'll be.
China just followed their way = develop tech that UE wasn't doing.
They saw a trend.
They have the capacity.
They have a big chance to win, but haven't won. Yet!
Europe, LIKE BOSCH, imposes with rules and Laws, and with those (for me STUPID) rules, have disgrace UE auto industry.
Further more, no Electric Vehicle is worth the value that it is sold, even with subsidising, because the technological evolution is so fast, that makes absolute anything in less than a decade!
Everyone is paying R&D, and that's why everyone is paying the big prize through Selling Price (while new) and depreciation (2nd hand!).
EVs are being sold, because their are subsidising every unit, and tax free (presently!)
ICE vehicles have plateau a few decades ago! Yes, you still have evolution, most drived by LAWS & RULES, but a 10year old ICE vehicles will hold far better residual value, than any EV.
At the end, is just:
Play stupid games, win stupid prices!
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PeterHenric
Member
I’ve seen people mention cadences of 60-90 and that seems REALLY high to me. Not saying it isn’t possible but not many people I know ride like that. 30-60 seems more likely.
Is there a way to see cadence in the Flow app? I’d be curious what I really average at.
Edit:
And I immediately realize I was WAY off. After seeing some screenshot above I went into my flow app and looked at my last few rides. Lowest average was high 70’s and the others were 83 and 84. I’m genuinely shocked.
Mario Antony
Active member
12A Charger already listed @250€
Availability Dec 2026... LOL!
Why present something that will only show up (if all stars are aligned!) In 7 month time?
Availability Dec 2026... LOL!
Why present something that will only show up (if all stars are aligned!) In 7 month time?
Plummet
Flash Git
Any word on opening the max speed up from 32 to 45 for approved areas?
Plummet
Flash Git
A weak excuse and showing your bias. My discussion was on topic to the upgrade as is multiple more in this thread discussing the reasons for the power limitation bosch have set to to comply with regulations. Are you going to delete those too?
Again, Very poor moderation and censorship.
I like the irony that this will sell a load of DJI power stations...
bmwpowere36m3
Member
Maybe their not interested in competing directly with Avinox or is the "new" class of full-power motors... In the US, we have yet another state (CA bill AB 1557) proposing tighter regulations for ebikes.
This bill modifies the definitions and regulations surrounding electric bicycles, or e-bikes, in California. It lowers the speed at which Class 1 and Class 2 e-bikes must cease providing assistance from 20 miles per hour to 16 miles per hour, though e-bikes manufactured before January 1, 2027, that previously met the requirements will retain their classification. The bill also introduces a new category for "cargo electric bicycles," which are designed for carrying goods or passengers and can be equipped with a motor up to 750 watts of continuous power. Furthermore, it prohibits manufacturers and retailers from selling or advertising e-bikes with motors exceeding 750 watts of peak power, and specifically limits Class 1 and Class 2 e-bikes to 250 watts of continuous power and a 16 mph assistance speed. Violations of these manufacturer and retailer provisions will result in civil penalties, not criminal charges. The bill also raises the age restriction for operating any e-bike with a motor exceeding 250 watts of continuous power to 16 years old, and allows law enforcement to require completion of a safety course as a condition for releasing seized e-bikes operated by minors.
Basically class I must be less than 750W peak and assist <16 MPH (currently 20 MPH). Maybe Bosch is waiting to see how the market and government react before jump head first like Avinox.
I have the gen 5 and don't even use the previous 100nm or 750w settings... (It burns through chains and cassettes too fast and not worth the cost.) But I do commute to my local trails on my bike, and the 19mph max speed is annoying! What I wish they updated was the max speed limit!
It's just reality weather one like it or not.
I have class 3 on my 2026 Levo. But I don't use It, it burns through chains and cassettes too fast and not worth the cost!
OK, now we have another thread on this subject, we'll try and keep that one to discussing the actual technical points of the update.
I've undeleted the deleted posts in this thread and you can continue to discuss all your personal views on speed restrictions, power limits without causing issues for those who only want to know about the actual update.
I've undeleted the deleted posts in this thread and you can continue to discuss all your personal views on speed restrictions, power limits without causing issues for those who only want to know about the actual update.
Mario Antony
Active member
Now imagine UE limit @ 25km/h (16mph).
I would happly pay Bosch and sign a legal document, where it would state I had a S-Pedalec (UE ebikes with 45km/h = 28mph.
Unfortunately not possible, nor it exist eMTB S-Pedalecs!
Meaning - I cannot buy legaly an S-Pedalec eMTB!
This is just ridiculous, even more since I already have insurance, and ride on remote trails...
It's not about max speed, but rather not having the boat anchor dragging as we go past 25km/h or 16mph.
Flash-jailbreak, was one of the best thing I did!
Speed limit is just hypocracy, because we have the Chip market that advertize and sell illegal devices.
What would be the difference between:
1) having a chip that is commercialy available
2) official flash, with legal document, signed by owner, starting it's not a Class XX
?
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