Crestline x DJI - RS 181 SPECTRE Edition

Geo numbers I found on the DJI Cresty.

My thoughts…

Axle Path - about -6mm at sag. this is pretty normal, no weird sensation you can get with High Pivot.

Leverage Curve - Looks great for a coil shock. Great with Air with lighter compression tune is ok for normal riders

Anti-Squat - About 130% at sag which is very high. Traction and comfort won’t be as good climbing but Going to be super efficient. Make sure you have a comfortable saddle or that new Reverb AXS that’s a little bouncy and provides some extra comfort.

Pedal Kickback - A whopping 32 degrees. I’m surprised because the 2022 Santa Cruz Bullit has 28 which is moderate. This is pretty High and leads to that sharp/harsh sensation I’ve heard some people complain about (They were probably running high engagement hubs). I swapped from a DT 54T ratchet to 18t (Depending where the wheel is, engagement is between Zero to 20 degrees) and it made a noticeable difference on my Levo SL 2 which has moderate kickback at 28 degrees. This 20deg engagement hub means at full travel, kickback is between 8 and 28 degrees. The worst thing you can do is run an I9 Hydra or super high engagment hub. I usually like the minimal feedback of bikes with less than 22 degrees. Most high Pivot bikes are extremely low between 14-20 degrees. The Decoy for reference is considered Medium to low at about 22.

Anti-Rise is pretty normal for VPP which is moderate. So applying brakes do affect the suspension a lot more than say a Trek’s active braking pivot which is 30-40% and a very flat curve. Dragging the rear brakes can harshen the ride a bit so No Brakes Guys!!!

Conclusion: Be like Jackson Goldstone and run an OChain/E13 Sidekick Hub on your VPP bike. A 20+ deg hub helps but can be inconsistent. A E13 removes 18 degrees effectively making it 14 degrees at full travel (like some High Pivot bikes minus the rearward axle path)

IMG_8180.jpeg
IMG_8179.jpeg IMG_8182.jpeg IMG_8186.jpeg IMG_8187.jpeg
 
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Here below is what pedal kickback looks like with a device with 18 degrees of float on a Santa Cruz Bullit’s Kickback curve. It follows the profile of the curve once you pass the float threshold.

IMG_8191.jpeg
 
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Got to see this frame in the flesh. The downtube is 10 inches in girth. The weight of the frame with a seatpost is 25.72 lbs.
 
MTB_MIKE said:
Geo numbers I found on the DJI Cresty.

My thoughts…

Axle Path - about -6mm at sag. this is pretty normal, no weird sensation you can get with High Pivot.

Leverage Curve - Looks great for a coil shock. Great with Air with lighter compression tune is ok for normal riders

Anti-Squat - About 130% at sag which is very high. Traction and comfort won’t be as good climbing but Going to be super efficient. Make sure you have a comfortable saddle or that new Reverb AXS that’s a little bouncy and provides some extra comfort.

Pedal Kickback - A whopping 32 degrees. I’m surprised because the 2022 Santa Cruz Bullit has 28 which is moderate. This is pretty High and leads to that sharp/harsh sensation I’ve heard some people complain about (They were probably running high engagement hubs). I swapped from a DT 54T ratchet to 18t (Depending where the wheel is, engagement is between Zero to 20 degrees) and it made a noticeable difference on my Levo SL 2 which has moderate kickback at 28 degrees. This 20deg engagement hub means at full travel, kickback is between 8 and 28 degrees. The worst thing you can do is run an I9 Hydra or super high engagment hub. I usually like the minimal feedback of bikes with less than 22 degrees. Most high Pivot bikes are extremely low between 14-20 degrees. The Decoy for reference is considered Medium to low at about 22.

Anti-Rise is pretty normal for VPP which is moderate. So applying brakes do affect the suspension a lot more than say a Trek’s active braking pivot which is 30-40% and a very flat curve. Dragging the rear brakes can harshen the ride a bit so No Brakes Guys!!!

Conclusion: Be like Jackson Goldstone and run an OChain/E13 Sidekick Hub on your VPP bike. A 20+ deg hub helps but can be inconsistent. A E13 removes 18 degrees effectively making it 14 degrees at full travel (like some High Pivot bikes minus the rearward axle path)

View attachment 162261 View attachment 162262 View attachment 162263 View attachment 162264 View attachment 162265
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Glad I have E13 SideKicks all laced up ready to go.
 
Everyone quotes pedal kickback figures in the highest gear (typically 34t chainring in the 51t climbing gear which is worse case scenario). It’s true that if you climb undulating steep technical trails you could be in this gear a lot or there’s a sudden short descent and you forget to shift gears since a punchy climb is coming up.
Most will be shifting to a much Lower gear for a long descent. For me, I prefer to shift down to 12t or 14t since at 10t, the chain is even closer to the chainstay and increases chainslap noise.

- With a 34T chainring and 10T cassette, pedal kickback is just under 10 degrees at full travel

- With 36T chainring which I think most people here should run and 10T cassette, pedal kickback is a little over 8 degrees

- With a 34T chainring and 21T cassette, kickback is under 16 degrees.

If you had an Ochain or E13 hub and run a 36t chainring, you’re probably good setting the float to 12 degrees. That ways, engagement is still pretty good which helps climbing. In most descending gears, you will still have Zero pedal kickback in Gears 10, 12, 14, 16, 18.
With the setting at 18 degrees of float, you’ll have zero kickback in gears 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 21, and Mabe a small amount at bottomout on gear 24. Every other gear is offset so Zero kickback until you surpass the float setting (6/12/18 degrees) where it then follows its normal kickback profile.

In my opinion, just run a sloppy 20 degree engagement hub or E13 sidekick Hub since Ochain isn’t available yet and require more maintenance than a hub does.

If you’re wondering if you can even feel the pedal kickback, do a run on a chunky section and climb back up and repeat the run in the same gear with the chain removed. Better rear suspension and less feedback on your legs means less lactic acid burn on your legs and better traction which keeps you more fresh towards the end of the run. Another alternative is to get more Fit so you do not notice any leg burn at all.
Removing kickback is not needed and there’s so many other great things about the bike.

Besides Ochain and E13, one other company has a Hub similar to E13 and I heard DT Swiss is also licensing this technology and releasing something soon

IMG_8193.jpeg IMG_8194.jpeg IMG_8195.jpeg
 
I'm a true believer in pedal kickback devices. With SRAM buying ochain you wonder their desire to make products for non-Sram compatible equipment. There's also Rimpact who don't offer any emtb options but it looks like they may in the future. Today they max out at 5 degree float. That leaves E13 and any other hub type devices as the choices today. If I have to have something for a 4 bar I'm reeeeaaaaally gonna want one for the 181, thanks for all the detail @MTB_MIKE
 
So I built up a Sidekick hub with a nearly indestructible $90 IBIS Send alloy rim for my old Timp Peak which only had 24 degrees of pedal kickback. I didn’t notice much improvement compared to my Specialized which had 33 degrees.

On the Timp, I only felt the difference when dropping to flat (full compression) or riding at Race speeds on chunky trails which I don’t do very often anymore.

With the Timp on drops to flat, It felt like I was landing on a slight 10 degree slope as opposed to landing to flat. It took the edge off a bit.
On the Spesh however, I felt the difference pretty much everywhere on the trail and way less chainslap noises. It’s not 100% quiet like an Onyx hub but you can’t hear it all when riding. I removed it from the Spesh because I have a weight wheenie build on my Levo SL that’s 38lbs so I ended up swapping back to the original carbon hoops with DT350hubs but swapped the 54T ratchet to a 18t ratchet. This felt like I got 75% of the benefits of the E13 hub in terms of removing harshness. It’s just not always consistent since the kickback depends on where the wheel is (0-20 degrees of kickback reduction as opposed to a constant 18 degrees at all times)
 
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MTB_MIKE said:
So I built up a Sidekick hub with a nearly indestructible $90 IBIS Send alloy rim for my old Timp Peak which only had 24 degrees of pedal kickback. I didn’t notice much improvement compared to my Specialized which had 33 degrees.

On the Timp, I only felt the difference when dropping to flat (full compression) or riding at Race speeds on chunky trails which I don’t do very often anymore.

With the Timp on drops to flat, It felt like I was landing on a slight 10 degree slope as opposed to landing to flat. It took the edge off a bit.
On the Spesh however, I felt the difference pretty much everywhere on the trail and way less chainslap noises. It’s not 100% quiet like an Onyx hub but you can’t hear it all when riding. I removed it from the Spesh because I have a weight wheenie build on my Levo SL that’s 38lbs so I ended up swapping back to the original carbon hoops with DT350hubs but swapped the 54T ratchet to a 18t ratchet. This felt like I got 75% of the benefits of the E13 hub in terms of removing harshness. It’s just not always consistent since the kickback depends on where the wheel is (0-20 degrees of kickback reduction as opposed to a constant 18 degrees at all times)
Click to expand...
I currently have an ochain set at 9 degrees on a Decoy. Most of the benefit is at the beginning of the travel during small-ish consecutive bumps like breaking bumps. My feet feel much more planted on the pedals rather than fighting them to stay on. Honestly, it is the best upgrade I've made in many years and makes the $500 sidekick a little easier to swallow.

Big compressions never really bothered me. The chain slap quieting was to me just an added benefit but much appreciated.
 
MTB_MIKE said:
Geo numbers I found on the DJI Cresty.

My thoughts…

Axle Path - about -6mm at sag. this is pretty normal, no weird sensation you can get with High Pivot.

Leverage Curve - Looks great for a coil shock. Great with Air with lighter compression tune is ok for normal riders

Anti-Squat - About 130% at sag which is very high. Traction and comfort won’t be as good climbing but Going to be super efficient. Make sure you have a comfortable saddle or that new Reverb AXS that’s a little bouncy and provides some extra comfort.

Pedal Kickback - A whopping 32 degrees. I’m surprised because the 2022 Santa Cruz Bullit has 28 which is moderate. This is pretty High and leads to that sharp/harsh sensation I’ve heard some people complain about (They were probably running high engagement hubs). I swapped from a DT 54T ratchet to 18t (Depending where the wheel is, engagement is between Zero to 20 degrees) and it made a noticeable difference on my Levo SL 2 which has moderate kickback at 28 degrees. This 20deg engagement hub means at full travel, kickback is between 8 and 28 degrees. The worst thing you can do is run an I9 Hydra or super high engagment hub. I usually like the minimal feedback of bikes with less than 22 degrees. Most high Pivot bikes are extremely low between 14-20 degrees. The Decoy for reference is considered Medium to low at about 22.

Anti-Rise is pretty normal for VPP which is moderate. So applying brakes do affect the suspension a lot more than say a Trek’s active braking pivot which is 30-40% and a very flat curve. Dragging the rear brakes can harshen the ride a bit so No Brakes Guys!!!

Conclusion: Be like Jackson Goldstone and run an OChain/E13 Sidekick Hub on your VPP bike. A 20+ deg hub helps but can be inconsistent. A E13 removes 18 degrees effectively making it 14 degrees at full travel (like some High Pivot bikes minus the rearward axle path)

View attachment 162261 View attachment 162262 View attachment 162263 View attachment 162264 View attachment 162265
Click to expand...

Love the analysis, but it's really inconclusive to not include seat height or better yet distance from the pedal in the down position and also show the different AS in different gears.

I climb with my seat in a full on XC style extended position personally, which is 35.5" from top of pedal to top of seating surface.
 
@Rob Rides EMTB
It’s Black and must be a NON-SPECTRE edition that will launch in bigger volumes shortly afterwards?

It looks like it’s got the oversized Bash Guard that protects the chainring however makes the motor look more bulbous than their original pictures.
 
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I hope the chain stay protection sticks to the frame better than previously. It appears maybe the backing paper just hasn’t been removed yet in the pic. I do like how the new chain stay protection now bridges the top and bottom pieces like some other bike manufacturers do. My current Crestline chain stay protection didn’t want to stay applied from day one, out of the box.

IMG_2194.jpeg
 
In Automotive, when you need 3M double stick tape to adhere to paint, you clean the area with alcohol, then apply adhesive primer, then apply the double stick tape. If this is a problem area, I’d zip tie that piece and allow the double stick tape to fully cure (normally 24hrs). This is the proper method for body side moldings and stuff for cars. Doing this makes the double stick tape a pain to peel off the paint
 
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In the Loam Wolf Review, the two biggest complaints on the Bosch powered bike was mud clearance on a slightly muddy day which caused the bike’s wheel to stop spinning and the VPP suspension harshness.

Harness may be due to pedal kickback and can be addressed with a chain device but I wonder if the mud clearance issue was addressed??
 
MTB_MIKE said:
In Automotive, when you need 3M double stick tape to adhere to paint, you clean the area with alcohol, then apply adhesive primer, then apply the double stick tape. If this is a problem area, I’d zip tie that piece and allow the double stick tape to fully cure (normally 24hrs). This is the proper method for body side moldings and stuff
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Agreed, unfortunately It was already somewhat applied when I pulled the frame out of the box.
 
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MTB_MIKE said:
@Rob Rides EMTB
It’s Black and must be a NON-SPECTRE edition that will launch in bigger volumes shortly afterwards?

It looks like it’s got the oversized Bash Guard that protects the chainring however makes the motor look more bulbous than their original pictures.
Click to expand...
Could you measure this distance?
I’m curious if my Pademelon damper mount will fit.

IMG_2196.jpeg
 
MTB_MIKE said:
@Rob Rides EMTB
It’s Black and must be a NON-SPECTRE edition that will launch in bigger volumes shortly afterwards?

It looks like it’s got the oversized Bash Guard that protects the chainring however makes the motor look more bulbous than their original pictures.
Click to expand...

Common sense ruled out, glad they did it.

That said, they should make it a SWAT compartment with tool storage. Nice and low.
 
ok, can someone explain what is going on, lol. The Spectre Frame is already getting modified from the limited run??, or is this going to be the particulars of the sold frame. Protection, etc, etc. etc.... If it's going to be "new and improved" In a short time then who the heck wants the experiment? Some explaining might be appreciated..
Rob, what exactly are you getting to test?
 
AlumiPro said:
I hope the chain stay protection sticks to the frame better than previously. It appears maybe the backing paper just hasn’t been removed yet in the pic. I do like how the new chain stay protection now bridges the top and bottom pieces like some other bike manufacturers do. My current Crestline chain stay protection didn’t want to stay applied from day one, out of the box.
Click to expand...
Nothing a little Shoe Goo can't fix
 
What’s that color considered? Carbon black or charcoal?….whatever it is it looks great!
I hope ours will have a black Cascade lower link though.
Good to see what it looks like with high rise bars. I ordered PNW Loam Carbon 50mm rise to try out, as I prefer 10deg back sweep.
Looking forward to hearing all the specs you choose on this build; drop out length, battery size, frame size….(guessing large means RH-4?) and I see 27.5 out back👍🏻
 
Rob Rides EMTB said:
Almost done. High 60mm bars as it’s a large, trying to get the reach as much as poss!
Click to expand...
If you're trying to lengthen reach higher rise bars are only going to shorten it (unless the roll is forward). The new, higher Renthals over 40mm rise have a 2 degree higher back sweep, pushing it back too. Just FYI.
 
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