Dji avinox- Amflow - Discussion
- Thread starter Farmernz
- Start date
Pyr0
E*POWAH Master
He mentions:
"that massive peak power is starting to take those bikes into motorbike territory".
I'm sorry, but even a 50cc moped is well over 2kW.
At that point I lost interest in anything else he had to say.
"that massive peak power is starting to take those bikes into motorbike territory".
I'm sorry, but even a 50cc moped is well over 2kW.
At that point I lost interest in anything else he had to say.
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juggernaut
Member
Just curious where is the 750w peak power requirement in the EU rules that he speaks of? I thought it was some sort of 250w average power only. Asking as OZ adopted the EU standards, with some exceptions.
I believe that law is US only for their “Class 1” e-bikes law. We don’t have a similar law as far as I know in the UK or EU regarding peak power - only law regarding rated or continuous power of 250W.
Which currently all motors - including DJI - adhere to.
Now they're being threatened with real competition, brands act like crybabies.
They all claim competition is good .. but not for them, or only if they can rule.
And please stop with all this rules BS, enough is enough (especially in europe, the land of rules amongst rules).
And the worst : even without the motor, Dji released their system with wireless controls, touchscreen, light / slim battery, etc ...
Just take a look at hideous oversized prego downtube of new models, from Bosch, Spesh and other.
Some famous brand was not even able to integrate a small 600 w peak power motor and 700 Wh slim battery in existing 'SL' models, and now they're ******.
They got what they deserved.
While the majority of the world innovates more and more, Europe release more and more rules.
Asylum ruled by officials, anyone ?
PS : i also think wee need limit(s). But when limits are edicted by incompetents clowns, it can't works. And adding rules to rules doesn't work either. I just wonder, considering the massive accenditology on roads, why cars are not more limited / restricted, in terms of power, speed, etc ???
PS bis @Alex bike tester, author of the video : Nothing personnal or against you, I follow and like a lot your emtb channel.
They all claim competition is good .. but not for them, or only if they can rule.
And please stop with all this rules BS, enough is enough (especially in europe, the land of rules amongst rules).
And the worst : even without the motor, Dji released their system with wireless controls, touchscreen, light / slim battery, etc ...
Just take a look at hideous oversized prego downtube of new models, from Bosch, Spesh and other.
Some famous brand was not even able to integrate a small 600 w peak power motor and 700 Wh slim battery in existing 'SL' models, and now they're ******.
They got what they deserved.
While the majority of the world innovates more and more, Europe release more and more rules.
Asylum ruled by officials, anyone ?
PS : i also think wee need limit(s). But when limits are edicted by incompetents clowns, it can't works. And adding rules to rules doesn't work either. I just wonder, considering the massive accenditology on roads, why cars are not more limited / restricted, in terms of power, speed, etc ???
PS bis @Alex bike tester, author of the video : Nothing personnal or against you, I follow and like a lot your emtb channel.
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juggernaut
Member
Thanks, you confirmed my understanding. Looks like DJI has “thrown the cat amongst the pigeons” so to speak.
I can’t see why the guy in the vid can’t use the app to adjust the power delivery to suit his skillset rather than scaremongering……..but he clearly has an agenda he wants to push.
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They read the rule book and bent the rules.... I just pointed it out as i noticed it before anyone else.... loopholes will be closed, trails protected.
Thanks for the personal attacks everyone... lol im right, so your deniel is whats more interesting. What im saying will grow in noise. The german media is all over it!
hansway i do believe rides shimano....
Read the comments in this video and tell me they are not all the same as the DJI motor stuff today. What happened to that bike, why did it never really do well? Obviously weight, but maybe because of power being excessive as well.... there was a technical problem with the power levels which meant it had to be withdrawn from the market.
Again - your interpretation and bias is creeping in.
You see one company bending the rules. I see another who has understood the rules and built a product within that ruleset that maximises performance whilst conforming.
DJI Avinox adheres to all current rules around speed, rated power and being pedal assist only. Rules may change of course, but as they are today DJI haven't "bent" any rules. Please do correct me if I'm wrong, as this is an area I'm learning still - but I honestly can't understand your perspective having watched a lot of your videos on DJI specifically.
Edit: I watched the Instagram video linked, but the chap just talks about ensuring bikes are classified as Class 1 ebikes - which the Amflow is.
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I would add:
- It's gigantic
- It's loud AF
To that list of why it didn't do well.
It was really greedy on consumption in most modes and obscenely heavy as a bike.
From what I remember, it was withdrawn because they had structural issues with the Frame which needed a ground up re-work which just wasn't worth it for the (lack of) interest in the bike.
Don't forget that the power numbers are power drawn from the battery, not power from the motor, so knock 20% off for motor power.
It's not like it's the DJI is the first motor with lots of power/torque. Even the Sachs has a lot more.
A 1.3 Brose fully charged at 42V pulling 20 Amps used to give 840w draw. Mag S motors were less, then reduced further to enable voltage compensation for more consistent power through the whole charge state - sacrificing some peak power in exchange for better overall usable performance.
German industry has a lot to loose against Dji.
It's not a surprise if they drive the bandwagon of the loosers.
It doesnt mean they are totally wrong.
Let legislator define limits in a meaningfull way, like :
- Class 1 ebike = 750-1000 W peak power / 100-120 Nm (combine with the 25 km/h speed limit, and it's ok).
I'm sure that if the crybabies brands were able to catch up, we wouldn't even hear about it.
Or maybe they played the 'slowest progression pace' they could, to drain customers. And now, it has a boomerang effect ?
But yeah, we all need our lives being ruled more and more, always more, by cultists of so many factions. We are child, we don't know, we can't understand !
But if it's REALLY all about nature protection, i'd suggest :
- neutralize boars. They can dig earth and create their own semi-subteranean trails, through very steep terrain, on incredible distance, at will (with no restrictions at all). Scandalous !
- neutralize rabbits (they poo anywhere, everywhere, anytime). Disgusting !
- neutralize all mules, responsible for the opening of centenary (even millenial) paths. "Where a mule set hoof, the way can sustain for a thousand years !" says the wisdom. Free and efficient ? Stop it !
etc ... ad nauseam
I'm so tired of the european bureaucratic stunner. Considering how worse things evolve, i'd expect the administration spendin my money for crime, drugs, frontiers enforcement, health and education.
Oh, and crybabies brand just have to release better bikes and stop complaining. I don't mean more powerfull.
Just better / refined geo, smaller motor, lighter battery, fair price.
Everyone would buy a 19 kg, 90 Nm, 700 Wh battery at a fair price (a castrated Dji, basically)
If brands had done their job, instead of milking ebikers while retaining innovation, Dji would never have such a window of opportunity to launch his lethal weapon.
It's not a surprise if they drive the bandwagon of the loosers.
It doesnt mean they are totally wrong.
Let legislator define limits in a meaningfull way, like :
- Class 1 ebike = 750-1000 W peak power / 100-120 Nm (combine with the 25 km/h speed limit, and it's ok).
I'm sure that if the crybabies brands were able to catch up, we wouldn't even hear about it.
Or maybe they played the 'slowest progression pace' they could, to drain customers. And now, it has a boomerang effect ?
But yeah, we all need our lives being ruled more and more, always more, by cultists of so many factions. We are child, we don't know, we can't understand !
But if it's REALLY all about nature protection, i'd suggest :
- neutralize boars. They can dig earth and create their own semi-subteranean trails, through very steep terrain, on incredible distance, at will (with no restrictions at all). Scandalous !
- neutralize rabbits (they poo anywhere, everywhere, anytime). Disgusting !
- neutralize all mules, responsible for the opening of centenary (even millenial) paths. "Where a mule set hoof, the way can sustain for a thousand years !" says the wisdom. Free and efficient ? Stop it !
etc ... ad nauseam
I'm so tired of the european bureaucratic stunner. Considering how worse things evolve, i'd expect the administration spendin my money for crime, drugs, frontiers enforcement, health and education.
Oh, and crybabies brand just have to release better bikes and stop complaining. I don't mean more powerfull.
Just better / refined geo, smaller motor, lighter battery, fair price.
Everyone would buy a 19 kg, 90 Nm, 700 Wh battery at a fair price (a castrated Dji, basically)
If brands had done their job, instead of milking ebikers while retaining innovation, Dji would never have such a window of opportunity to launch his lethal weapon.
Emailsucks98
Well-known member
There's really three separate topics though, no?
- Market trends
- Regulation
- DJI
We're all better off if the industry focuses on reliability and sustainability. Reliability could include brand-standardized motor-mounts, user serviceability and better warranties. And sustainability includes keeping the power and torque within reasonable limits so as not to threaten trail access (regulations or not).
There is so much room for improvement without more torque & power. Things like removable batteries, better bash-guards, better charging ports, eliminating noise & rattle.
But focusing on torque & power will take us all in the direction of planned obsolescence.
westcoastmtbr
Active member
This guy is 1000% correct. This making the bikes more powerful is going to, repeat going to ruin what we all enjoy in the trail access permission that so many times are taken for granted. Once we start getting into the DJI 120nm bikes, 28 mph fire road standards like the new LEVO and more then kindly kiss your freedoms goodbye. Here is the SF Bay Area, many trails do not allow for ebikes and many tails loosely turn a blind eye to access. Ok, if you don't act like a fool stuff. Get enough super power bikes on the trail and watch the blind eye change into a pissed eye, and watch the tickets begin to fly. DJI is "pushing the limits" that the other manufacturers are ignoring? The press says this and it's stupid. Are you kidding me. Watch any YouTube video shot it a public area and watch the bikers mention "thank you" about 100 times passing hikers, walkers, runners, families, etc, etc. It may only be a short section of the ride, but perception is reality. Here, we're already getting enough crap on an Orbea Rise, let alone a super bike like the DJI. This is about to get ugly, and when DJI lowers their bike assist to everyone else's power, you'll be stuck with a mediocre bike with a touchscreen. Wow, wasn't this worth it all....
But the DJI is limited to the top speed just like any other ebike is....
That's what I don't understand about what you're saying - any ebike from 50nm SL's upwards will hit the speed limiter with ease on a fireroad or gentle climb. You're no more 'blasting pass hikers' on a DJI as you are on any other motor - they've all got the same top speed!
Hell I've seen some properly fit blokes cycle past hikers at 15mph with a regular analogue bike on tough climbs much to everyone's astonishment. What difference does having a motor vs no motor mean in that context if you're still all going the same speed? Does the fit rider who can put out enough power to cycle as fast as an ebike also risk you losing trail access?
So why are you all hyper focused on DJI? Even Bosch is updating their power - I don't see all the videos and comments calling those guys out.
Y'all should be throwing more anger at Specalized for their Class 1 - Class 3 trick - that actually is bending the rules and risks you losing trail access. DJI don't let you do that. DJI goes the same top speed as any other ebike according to the law. It just has a bit more shove and punch to get you there.
That's what I don't understand about what you're saying - any ebike from 50nm SL's upwards will hit the speed limiter with ease on a fireroad or gentle climb. You're no more 'blasting pass hikers' on a DJI as you are on any other motor - they've all got the same top speed!
Hell I've seen some properly fit blokes cycle past hikers at 15mph with a regular analogue bike on tough climbs much to everyone's astonishment. What difference does having a motor vs no motor mean in that context if you're still all going the same speed? Does the fit rider who can put out enough power to cycle as fast as an ebike also risk you losing trail access?
So why are you all hyper focused on DJI? Even Bosch is updating their power - I don't see all the videos and comments calling those guys out.
Y'all should be throwing more anger at Specalized for their Class 1 - Class 3 trick - that actually is bending the rules and risks you losing trail access. DJI don't let you do that. DJI goes the same top speed as any other ebike according to the law. It just has a bit more shove and punch to get you there.
westcoastmtbr
Active member
The main point or issue remains for all the bike companies, but especially DJI. By presenting this bike, they effectively started by calling this a Class 1 Ebike competing against all the established brands. No doubt that many of the established manufacturers could have presented this amped up type of motor before. Clearly the Gen 4, and soon to be firmware controlled Bosch upgrade is a response to DJI. This is due to the overwhelming press they got at the Euro Bike Show. We can giver DJI credit for creating a motor or their own... while it most common for the Chinese to just reverse engineer someone else's design. It's so funny to see just how similar the DJI bike is the Levo SL btw.
So back to the blowing past people, bikers, and hikers, etc on the trail. It's when it comes to single track climbs where such a powerful motor causes issues and backlash. Have all the power behind you and you're going to wait for the other pedals bikes, hiker, families, or lightweight ebikes to clear a tight single track uphill section? Nope, you'll choose to blast past them.. Ferrari behind a MiniVan likeness. Now introduce this power to people who are not confident riders and this will cause nothing but issues, and then more regulation. We're trying not to draw attention to ebikes, rather less attention if possible. All it will take is some hi profile accident in the Santa Cruz area (let's hope not) but add in the fact that the bike is blurring the line between Class 1 and 3. It's just as easy to create a new law as it is to enforce a blurred line between 1 Class 3. This is not going to end well IMHO. Yes, you might be able to cause issue on a First Gen Orbea Rise on that climb, but add in over 100nm on a lightweight Amflow Carbon compared to 60nm will less wattage and we'll all be saying, "what were we thinking?" You guys in the UK have no idea how contentious this situation is here.
So back to the blowing past people, bikers, and hikers, etc on the trail. It's when it comes to single track climbs where such a powerful motor causes issues and backlash. Have all the power behind you and you're going to wait for the other pedals bikes, hiker, families, or lightweight ebikes to clear a tight single track uphill section? Nope, you'll choose to blast past them.. Ferrari behind a MiniVan likeness. Now introduce this power to people who are not confident riders and this will cause nothing but issues, and then more regulation. We're trying not to draw attention to ebikes, rather less attention if possible. All it will take is some hi profile accident in the Santa Cruz area (let's hope not) but add in the fact that the bike is blurring the line between Class 1 and 3. It's just as easy to create a new law as it is to enforce a blurred line between 1 Class 3. This is not going to end well IMHO. Yes, you might be able to cause issue on a First Gen Orbea Rise on that climb, but add in over 100nm on a lightweight Amflow Carbon compared to 60nm will less wattage and we'll all be saying, "what were we thinking?" You guys in the UK have no idea how contentious this situation is here.
Hi Amflow Riders..
As I sold my Carbon PL PRO today and the buyer wnted to keep the stock shock, I have a perfect rear Shock on sale for it.
Push SV8 including a Fox SL spring (gold metallic translucent power coated) looks incredible on the bike an brings it‘s suspension to total new level!!! If you want it, just send ma a PM
As I sold my Carbon PL PRO today and the buyer wnted to keep the stock shock, I have a perfect rear Shock on sale for it.
Push SV8 including a Fox SL spring (gold metallic translucent power coated) looks incredible on the bike an brings it‘s suspension to total new level!!! If you want it, just send ma a PM
Guess we will have to wait and see if we get more EU regulation.
Does a bosch/avinox/brose truly have a continuous rated power output of no more than 250 watts? or did they just put a 250w sticker on it
Either way, I think restrictions on weight and speed are more likely as it's much easier to understand for the lay person and will be indetifiable factors to accidents.
Does a bosch/avinox/brose truly have a continuous rated power output of no more than 250 watts? or did they just put a 250w sticker on it
Either way, I think restrictions on weight and speed are more likely as it's much easier to understand for the lay person and will be indetifiable factors to accidents.
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750 watts max (at rear wheel, which means more in electrical and on the Motor axle) and around 100 nm will be the limit that will established in EU within the next two years. This is already clear. Also the support will be limited to 400% instead of 800% like the Avinox
My job is a bike journalist, that my job, i paid for it. I have sources, experiences and data outside the realm of the internet with real numbers, the whole lot, even printed paper still.
If i know that the bench test of motor A is not giving the result they quote, i know that, you dont. i quote from it sometimes if i have a picture of it or a data sheet.
The 250w rule for EU is not a rule really its kind of a window, and there are technical specifications that can be stretched which were not designed for e bikes. It used to be the old Austrian 600w rule was what all the bike makers were working to, to make sure that was respected. That of course is not mentioned by anyone on here because its not their job to know.
I was on a call the other day with two people who were explaining what happening, then a call with another person, all engineers, all involved, all explaining what all the fuss is about. But its all private, they are explaining whats going on in private. What good DJI did, what they didnt do, how pissed off they (dji) will be, how they will react. Another call with a software engineer about How they are CPC , and avoid at all costs giving data to them.
There is so much to unpack its wild. Trying to then take some of that story to the public is also wild LOL.
read between the lines for Pinkbike Amflow test for example., their title says bending the rules. They (pinkbike) didnt make it up, they (DJI) bend the rules.
pinkbike.com/news/review-amflow-pl-carbon-pro-blitzing-trails-and-bending-rules.html
I have no bias, sometimes i sign embargos, then i have to be quiet, if i havent i can make strategic choices of what I post.
I just wanted to mention the US doesn't have different wattage limits for any of the classes, "class 1" doesn't matter in this case. Also the 750w limit federally isn't very clear on if that's rated or peak, and has been somewhat left to interpretation unlike the EU. The wording being "an electric motor of less than 750 watts", with most companies and people treating this as a rated power limitation. How this gets tricky though is a lot of states have their own limits on what they consider a ebike. So you will have states that outright say 750w rated motor max with no peak limits, some that have wording like above that isn't super clear but understood as rated power, and states like California which recently came out and said "electric motor that does not exceed 750 watts of power" aka peak power limited to 750w. If Dji was worried about the laws they would either need to have state limits or do a nation wide limit that is low enough to comply with every state.
What is interesting about these laws is I haven't seen one mention is this for electrical power or is that mechanical power, there can be quite a big difference as seen with some of the independent testing
TheSnowShark
Well-known member
I think we should have a separate discussion about the US and the EU... this subject is becoming rather obscure... 
The US is basically a federation of states each with its own state capital, government, and local laws.I think we should have a separate discussion about the US and the EU... this subject is becoming rather obscure...
The US can only be considered as a whole where federal law rather than individual state laws apply.
One might argue another side of your job is to produce content that will generate engagement, views and clicks to generate said income
But thanks for the reply - I appreciate the engagement even if we're at odds.
I'm sure you're aware of the Velomotion benchmark video of the Avinox motor. They do a fairly good job of explaining when and how the Avinox motor is reaching its power.
I look forward to seeing any future videos on the topic as your post currently boils down to "trust me bro".
This kind of a feels a bit like Forumula 1 when one team finds an advantage within the ruleset that the other teams didn't spot, then all the other teams go running to the FIA to try and get that advantage banned...
I've read the replies here and it all feels very "storm in a teacup" with over exaggerations and hyperbole. Yes, new motors are more powerful. No, they're not like motorbikes on the trail and to suggest they are is disingenuous. Yes, the Avinox motor produces a lot of power. No, it doesn't fall foul of any rules as they exist today.
I would like to see makers putting more effort into reducing weight on EMTBs, not to fuss about power if we end up with 750w being the cap then so be it this is more than enough for a 20 kgs bike.After riding my AMflow and then getting on the new Spec Gen 4 it’s like riding a donkey in comparison, the AMflow feels like you’re riding a bike that’s part of you in comparison. Its so agile that’s were fun is to be had in my opinion on a bike that you can feel what it’s doing underneath you.
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The self-jailing mentality growing in europe, whatever the pro, con, valid statement or not, is overwhelming.
When i was young, the most famous movies were about 'the great escape'.
Nowadays, everyone want to rules / enforce the life of everyone, following its own way of thinking about A, B or C.
And it's incredible how fast ppl self-restrict, because they know someone will, if they dont self restrict on their own.
Insteand of land of freedom, consciouness and self awareness, responsibility, it's jail for everyone.
I guess the next millenial movie will be about 'the great massive jailing, no-escape allowed' ?
25 km/h limit, no throttle, and stey still piss us ?
Someone at bosch , spesh must feel very unsafe, isn't it ?
And as usual, america (through a brand) uses germany (throug other brands) as a trojan horse to ********** everything in Europe.
Wabagadoowah ?
Instead of clownery and engrossing their bike, Spesh had better upgrading SL bike with Dji-like motor (90 Nm, 600 W peak) with ultra slim 700 Wh battery ...
When i was young, the most famous movies were about 'the great escape'.
Nowadays, everyone want to rules / enforce the life of everyone, following its own way of thinking about A, B or C.
And it's incredible how fast ppl self-restrict, because they know someone will, if they dont self restrict on their own.
Insteand of land of freedom, consciouness and self awareness, responsibility, it's jail for everyone.
I guess the next millenial movie will be about 'the great massive jailing, no-escape allowed' ?
25 km/h limit, no throttle, and stey still piss us ?
Someone at bosch , spesh must feel very unsafe, isn't it ?
And as usual, america (through a brand) uses germany (throug other brands) as a trojan horse to ********** everything in Europe.
Wabagadoowah ?
Instead of clownery and engrossing their bike, Spesh had better upgrading SL bike with Dji-like motor (90 Nm, 600 W peak) with ultra slim 700 Wh battery ...
