Trail grades

[JoeBlow]

Can someone please explain trail grades to me. I know they are subjective but there doesn't appear to be any consistency in methodology. FOD for example has Green, Blue and Red loops but then the downhills are graded with white dots on an orange back ground, one , two or three dots to signify increasing difficulty, but the notices say small, medium and large which I assume refers to the size of the obstacles. Trailforks shows some of the trails marked as blue and/or two dots as actually being Black. The only consistency I can find is that Blue seems to equate to one dot then it all goes to pot. I did as couple of blues today around the area of Y2K which were very challenging i.e. in no way blue as indicated.

Al

 

[steve_sordy]

This topic generated a huge amount of discussion on the now defunct MBR Forum. Some of it was useful, some not - more of the "my red is harder than your red" kind of stuff. at that time, there did not appear to be a generally agreed specification of what red or black means. But I find it hard to understand why not. After all, if you ask a trail builder to give you a blue red and black trail and pay them £750k to do it, how do they know what you want and how do you know you've got it? You and the trail builder must agree a specification beforehand, so where do you start?

The Sherwood Pines Forest England ranger with responsibility for trails has to agree a spec and get quotes before he has any work done. Then the trail has to be inspected, rated and signed off by an external body before it can be opened to the public. So what spec are they all agreeing to? I can't believe that they make it up every time.

He also told me that before he builds an XC trail for (say) the qualifying races for the Olympics he is told how long it must be, what gradients and what features it must have.

Someone somewhere has a written spec.

 

[miPbiP]

I think they're just a guide.

In skiing, grades are relevant to the resort, so a black would be the hardest in the resort, but maybe a red elsewhere. It's largely for marketing. (You'll notice for instance every restaurant is accessible by a blue, regardless of how the trails actually are).

At Coed Y Brenin the blacks are partly that because they're a long way from base and it's a big climb to get there, so there is more to it than the difficulty of the descent.

 

[JoeBlow]

I ski and I climb and would agree that it is very subjective but I'v managed to get to grips with grades in both those activities and seldom disagree in a major way. But mountain biking seems very random.

Al

 

[Mikerb]

It also matters who is grading a trail....a bike park or just someone who records a ride on Trailforks or Komoot.
Personally I have yet to find a trail I cannot ride regardless of its grading and often it is a matter of how fast or how hard you ride it.

 

[Dax]

Forestry England have published this page, there are similar ones for Wales and Scotland too: Mountain bike trail grades

On trail forks, unless it's an official trail, the grading is decided by the person who uploaded it, so it may be easier or harder than the colour implies.

I'm not a massive fan of UK trail center grading, the spots seem meaningless, dh trails are not split into tech and flow, and most UK trail centers red trails are not harder or more challenging than the blues, just less comfortable to ride.

 

[mark.ai]

OpenStreetMap has some descriptions for their trail grade system - intended mostly for natural routes: Key:mtb:scale - OpenStreetMap Wiki. You can also specify how steep any inclines are and give an extra rating specifically for uphill difficulty. (Although really needs an EMTB uphill difficulty as well!)

There's also the IMBA rating system, but it's different from the UK system Trail Difficulty Rating System | IMBA (and can also be set in OpenStreetMap: Key:mtb:scale:imba - OpenStreetMap Wiki)

I think roughly their green = UK blue, blue = red and black = black ?

 

[JoeBlow]

So to summarise: It's a "mish mash and a minefield". I quite like the Bike Park Wales system which seems to show trails in ascending difficulty but in a simple way like skiing. IMO trying to identify every obstacle individually and grade accordingly is probably bound to fail. Years ago a similar approach to rock climbing tried this and did not prove popular.

My problem is I've only been doing this for 6 months. I've managed many blues at FOD, Flyup417 and Bike Park Wales and even a few Reds but a couple of "blues" (note the inverted commas) yesterday were beyond my capabilities if I'm honest. I got down them but had to dismount in a few places. This has made me a bit wary, I don't want to get out of my depth. I don't know but I suspect that dismounting is seen as bad form and a sign that the trail is too hard for your skill level. I don't mean dismounting to take a look, that seems like common sense, but dismounting to avoid an obstacle.

Al

 

[cat1]

This topic generated a huge amount of discussion on the now defunct MBR Forum. Some of it was useful, some not - more of the "my red is harder than your red" kind of stuff. at that time, there did not appear to be a generally agreed specification of what red or black means. But I find it hard to understand why not. After all, if you ask a trail builder to give you a blue red and black trail and pay them £750k to do it, how do they know what you want and how do you know you've got it? You and the trail builder must agree a specification beforehand, so where do you start?

The Sherwood Pines Forest England ranger with responsibility for trails has to agree a spec and get quotes before he has any work done. Then the trail has to be inspected, rated and signed off by an external body before it can be opened to the public. So what spec are they all agreeing to? I can't believe that they make it up every time.

He also told me that before he builds an XC trail for (say) the qualifying races for the Olympics he is told how long it must be, what gradients and what features it must have.

Someone somewhere has a written spec.

I would say the Ranger with the responsibility at sherwood pines should get the sack ?

 

[steve_sordy]

I would say the Ranger with the responsibility at sherwood pines should get the sack ?

It is a public body that he works for and he has to obey the same procurement rules that they all have to do. I know the guy and he is perfectly capable of designing the trails himself. He has a small team that help with trail maintenance and small mods. But he does not have the manpower to do the big jobs. I see that you added a smiley, but why should he get the sack?

 

[Mikerb]

Its one reason I prefer natural trails. They often comprise every grade in one drop! Just exploring is good as well because its all new so you have to make quick judgements whether to commit or stop! Its also fun when you find the head of a trail you have done before and blast with more confidence only to find someone since the last time you rode it has added a set of piled up logs where there was nothing before or created a detour with a berm where it went straight on previously!

 

[JoeBlow]

I have to admit the trails I ventured onto yesterday felt far more natural than the maintained, more established trails that I have been on to date. The surface was a softer, richer soil (loam?)which probably makes it more variable from day to day and exposes routes and rocks much faster but my point is this should be allowed for in the grading especially as all the trails are at the same centre. By any measure they were an order of magnitude harder than the trails I have got used to, both blue and red.

Al

 

[cat1]

It is a public body that he works for and he has to obey the same procurement rules that they all have to do. I know the guy and he is perfectly capable of designing the trails himself. He has a small team that help with trail maintenance and small mods. But he does not have the manpower to do the big jobs. I see that you added a smiley, but why should he get the sack?

They don't put any thought into the trails. I cant believe that the builder is a rider. They get money to build trails and just put the same old sweepy trails in designed for families to get more revenue in. Why don't they put more features in but make them an option so it attracts a wider range of people. When they put a feature in they put a rock garden in uphill! It cant be restrictions forced on them as other trail centres manage to do it.

 

[Dax]

I have to admit the trails I ventured onto yesterday felt far more natural than the maintained, more established trails that I have been on to date. .......
this should be allowed for in the grading especially as all the trails are at the same centre. By any measure they were an order of magnitude harder than the trails I have got used to, both blue and red.

Were they official trails? Were the grades shown on an official map or posts at the top of the trails?

 

[JoeBlow]

I believe so although they are new in comparison to the others and a little bit out of the way. The trails in question were Y2K and Elephant Man at FOD. They are not on the centres "official" map but they were designated with white dots on orange like the others I believe. Can't be 100% sure as I was being shown around by a few guys so I was under pressure to keep up. I'll check them out again tomorrow at my own pace

Al

 

[Dax]

I believe so although they are new in comparison to the others and a little bit out of the way. The trails in question were Y2K and Elephant Man at FOD.

They're official trails, Y2k has been around for years (possibly 19 years), I remember racing it in the wet in about 2011.

Y2k and Elephant Man definitely aren't blue XC trails, iirc they are posted as 2 spot DH trails (whatever that means). Off the top of my head I would grade them red, because they aren't too bad - Nothing must make, features are big but rollable or avoidable - maybe black for XC trails and blue for a bike Park.

Well done for riding them

 

[JoeBlow]

You seem to be suggesting that downhill grades are graded differently to XC grades which certainly seems to be the way at FOD but Bike Park Wales just seems to go with Green, Blue, Red, Black with added symbols for extraordinarily difficult obstacles. I'll never be hardcore but I would like to get to "competent" to be able to ride everything without getting off even if I'm not the fastest. I always seem to be the oldest at the downhill sections but hey ho you can't give in to age can you? So much to learn and so little time I may ask some of the trail builders at FOD what their logic is.

Al

 

[Dax]

XC and DH grades are pretty different. Lots of black XC trails are black because they are long with lots of climb and may be a 4-6hr ride. Black DH trails are...black. Think drops taller than your wheel, gap jumps, etc.

The forestry commission don't use blue/red/black for DH trails, they use the spot system on Orange with one, two or three dots, so people don't go down a red DH trail expecting a slightly rooty XC singletrack.

In conclusion:
- Trail center grading varies between centers, red @ fod != red at coed y brenin
- White spots on Orange mean it's a DH trail, which probably means it's probably going to be fairly difficult (Countdown/Launchpad) at FoD are the obvious exception
- colours on trailwise may not match the actual grading of the trail (check out the comments on y2k, you are not alone)

Finally, be careful riding with people you don't know. One persons 'easy' may be someone else's 'impossible'.

 

[JoeBlow]

XC and DH grades are pretty different. Lots of black XC trails are black because they are long with lots of climb and may be a 4-6hr ride. Black DH trails are...black. Think drops taller than your wheel, gap jumps, etc.

The forestry commission don't use blue/red/black for DH trails, they use the spot system on Orange with one, two or three dots, so people don't go down a red DH trail expecting a slightly rooty XC singletrack.

In conclusion:
- Trail center grading varies between centers, red @ fod != red at coed y brenin
- White spots on Orange mean it's a DH trail, which probably means it's probably going to be fairly difficult (Countdown/Launchpad) at FoD are the obvious exception
- colours on trailwise may not match the actual grading of the trail (check out the comments on y2k, you are not alone)

Thank's that does make some sense. I suspect I may have set my base point too low by using Countdown and Launchpad as the benchmarks. Mind you a couple of routes at Bike Park Wales were similar in standard to those. Oh well looks like I need more practice. I'll have to up my game, I can't keep doing these two trails they are getting a little boring albeit fast boring.

Al

 

[steve_sordy]

They don't put any thought into the trails. I cant believe that the builder is a rider. They get money to build trails and just put the same old sweepy trails in designed for families to get more revenue in. Why don't they put more features in but make them an option so it attracts a wider range of people. When they put a feature in they put a rock garden in uphill! It cant be restrictions forced on them as other trail centres manage to do it.

The trail manager at Pines is a very keen rider, rides to work through the forest, does the 'Ard Rock and so forth. He is rightly proud of what he has been able to achieve at Pines and will defend it vigorously given the opportunity far better than I ever could.
He, and no doubt every other trail manager at a Forest England location, has to fight for every penny to spend on the trails. Don't forget that the main business of Forest England is to maintain the forests and to make money from harvesting the trees; everything else is a sideshow. Their main function is not to provide stunning bike trails for us. They are nothing like trail centres managed as a business in itself (Bike Park Wales comes to mind).
Two major sources of income at Sherwood Pines are concerts, (which he has to prepare for, but are nothing to do with biking). The other is income from car parking, but surveys have shown that the vast majority of people using the car parks are not bikers! I know of bikers that avoid paying any car parking fee by parking outside the area and riding in. In addition, many don't use the cafe either. They contribute nothing to the facilities they are using. I wonder how well any of us would do if bound by the same financial restrictions? He struggles to justify the money that he does get!

It is not that longs ago that the red trail at Pines was pretty much unrideable from mid October to late February. It is pretty much an all year trail now, such is the progress made in recent years.

Another big drag that very few people are aware of is the fact that Centre-Parks is right next door (they share a long fence). Many CP customers ride in to Pines on bikes they have hired from CP or on their own bikes. Unless they use the Cafe, they leave no cash with the site, yet when they get injured it is SP that has to recover them, deal with the emergency services, and it is SP that has to deal with insurance and legal claims that the trails are dangerous or insufficiently signposted. Walkers from there also arrive and use the facilities free of charge. They walk up the bike trails and express outrage when bikers come hurtling towards them. When they get back to CP, they complain and then CP gives SP a hard time. I know for a fact the CP's complaints were behind the very good DH bike park being ripped out and replaced with something that had the schoolkids flocking from miles around. So out went the 6' drops, the wall rides, the woodwork rising high, and those lovely big rock-edged holes were blocked with felled trees. All the challenging stuff gone because a woman with a floaty dress, plimsolls and a bike with a basket on the front fell off the woodwork (one example).

Oh dear! Rant over.

 

[cat1]

The trail manager at Pines is a very keen rider, rides to work through the forest, does the 'Ard Rock and so forth. He is rightly proud of what he has been able to achieve at Pines and will defend it vigorously given the opportunity far better than I ever could.
He, and no doubt every other trail manager at a Forest England location, has to fight for every penny to spend on the trails. Don't forget that the main business of Forest England is to maintain the forests and to make money from harvesting the trees; everything else is a sideshow. Their main function is not to provide stunning bike trails for us. They are nothing like trail centres managed as a business in itself (Bike Park Wales comes to mind).
Two major sources of income at Sherwood Pines are concerts, (which he has to prepare for, but are nothing to do with biking). The other is income from car parking, but surveys have shown that the vast majority of people using the car parks are not bikers! I know of bikers that avoid paying any car parking fee by parking outside the area and riding in. In addition, many don't use the cafe either. They contribute nothing to the facilities they are using. I wonder how well any of us would do if bound by the same financial restrictions? He struggles to justify the money that he does get!

It is not that longs ago that the red trail at Pines was pretty much unrideable from mid October to late February. It is pretty much an all year trail now, such is the progress made in recent years.

Another big drag that very few people are aware of is the fact that Centre-Parks is right next door (they share a long fence). Many CP customers ride in to Pines on bikes they have hired from CP or on their own bikes. Unless they use the Cafe, they leave no cash with the site, yet when they get injured it is SP that has to recover them, deal with the emergency services, and it is SP that has to deal with insurance and legal claims that the trails are dangerous or insufficiently signposted. Walkers from there also arrive and use the facilities free of charge. They walk up the bike trails and express outrage when bikers come hurtling towards them. When they get back to CP, they complain and then CP gives SP a hard time. I know for a fact the CP's complaints were behind the very good DH bike park being ripped out and replaced with something that had the schoolkids flocking from miles around. So out went the 6' drops, the wall rides, the woodwork rising high, and those lovely big rock-edged holes were blocked with felled trees. All the challenging stuff gone because a woman with a floaty dress, plimsolls and a bike with a basket on the front fell off the woodwork (one example).

Oh dear! Rant over.

To be fair I'm sure he has got his hands tied a bit to what hes allowed to build but I just find it frustrating that it is so featureless. Obviously no body wants to get hurt but it would be nice to have the option to challenge yourself sometimes and if you don't go a diverted route.

 

[Doomanic]

Finally, be careful riding with people you don't know. One persons 'easy' may be someone else's 'impossible'.

I was being shown around by a few guys so I was under pressure to keep up.

They weren't really doing you any favours if you were under pressure.

Y2k and Elephant Man definitely aren't blue XC trails, iirc they are posted as 2 spot DH trails (whatever that means). Off the top of my head I would grade them red, because they aren't too bad - Nothing must make, features are big but rollable or avoidable - maybe black for XC trails and blue for a bike Park.

I'd say Red+ in the dry, black in the wet.

Well done for riding them

Agreed.

 

[JoeBlow]

They didn't apply any pressure. I said I was looking for a specific trail, they said follow us. The pressure was self induced ego. It can't have been that bad, I'm going to try it again tomorrow but at my own pace. I'm very competitive but only with myself. I need to shake this off I'm 71 years old and should know better.

 

[Dax]

Be careful

Happy to show you around some blue trails sometime. There's a lot of fantastic riding at FoD, but the unofficial stuff can get big quickly!

 

[JoeBlow]

If you mean genuine blue trails I will take you up on your offer. Thank you. I didn't realise there were many more. Word of warning however. I'm a strictly fair weather mountain biker but other than that just name a day.

Al

 

[steve_sordy]

To be fair I'm sure he has got his hands tied a bit to what hes allowed to build but I just find it frustrating that it is so featureless. Obviously no body wants to get hurt but it would be nice to have the option to challenge yourself sometimes and if you don't go a diverted route.

If you want a challenge, with free stretcher bearers, come to the Sherwood Pines Ride on Sun 22nd Sep, see the Rideouts section. There's already ten of us going.