Pff, got around just today thank you very much! Still didn't notice any rattle, unless you mean a typical electric motor whine.Great. Let us know when you get round to riding your bike
Article The new Performance CX Race, for ebike racing
- Thread starter knut7
- Start date
RickBullotta
E*POWAH Elite World Champion
Shortly, I will open a web store selling "RACE" emblems that you can stick on to your existing bikes and get approximately the same performance and weight.
You can but it right now
whytebikes.com
E-180 Works MX Super Enduro Electric Mountain Bike
E-180 Works is the ultimate Super E-Enduro Race bike designed for - and by - the fastest riders on the fiercest courses. Built around the latest beast mode Performance Line CX Race Limited Edition motor from Bosch, the E-180 Works features an all-new gravity frame with race dominating 180mm...
whytebikes.com
Basically, they've done a nice and interesting job of lightening the motor to try a few things out which might trickle down in the future. By default it's heavier than the ep8 - but then it can give considerably more support, seems to give more range for similar effort and seems more reliable (subjective so don't jump on me).
It's great they've set "Race" up as a separate mode, so you can still use the bike normally in all the other modes and not have the "negatives" placed on you in all the ride modes.
The motor is already pretty easy to change gear smoothly with if you use some sympathy in all the modes except Turbo (when overrun doesn't ease).
A lot of people will probably buy this wanting the Fastest, latest and greatest, but as the video's say, unless you're a great rider, you won't be able to use the extra features to your advantage.
You only need to remember all the threads of Brose torque sensor failures where overrun went to 1.5-2 seconds and countless people's horror stories of being nearly taken to their deaths over cliffs and into trees. Similarly with fast pedalled flatter sections, as you do on an EMTB, and then find it still propelling you at full Turbo power into a corner when you stopped pedalling a week ago.
Then all the threads where people complain about cassettes only lasting a few hundred KM's or less - imagine the same people who've not yet had time to adjust to the FF riding experience and easing off correctly for gear changes in Race mode - Full Turbo 400% for 1.5 seconds and trying to upshift without destroying chains and cassettes.
It's an interesting and fun development of the CX, but in the hands of most of us muppets, it would be wasted/abused.
It's great they've set "Race" up as a separate mode, so you can still use the bike normally in all the other modes and not have the "negatives" placed on you in all the ride modes.
The motor is already pretty easy to change gear smoothly with if you use some sympathy in all the modes except Turbo (when overrun doesn't ease).
A lot of people will probably buy this wanting the Fastest, latest and greatest, but as the video's say, unless you're a great rider, you won't be able to use the extra features to your advantage.
You only need to remember all the threads of Brose torque sensor failures where overrun went to 1.5-2 seconds and countless people's horror stories of being nearly taken to their deaths over cliffs and into trees. Similarly with fast pedalled flatter sections, as you do on an EMTB, and then find it still propelling you at full Turbo power into a corner when you stopped pedalling a week ago.
Then all the threads where people complain about cassettes only lasting a few hundred KM's or less - imagine the same people who've not yet had time to adjust to the FF riding experience and easing off correctly for gear changes in Race mode - Full Turbo 400% for 1.5 seconds and trying to upshift without destroying chains and cassettes.
It's an interesting and fun development of the CX, but in the hands of most of us muppets, it would be wasted/abused.
Interesting way to test components to destruction prior to creating a much lighter motor to compete with Fazua, TQ, and others.
Pffft. Amateurs. I can do that without overrun.
This isn't really a very good example.
For starters the OW02, whilst stunning, wasn't lighter or more powerful. It was actually homologated to comply with the German 100hp limit, so it was actually heavily de-tuned with the knowledge that anyone buying it would re-build the motor with higher spec components to get the race performance required (unless you forgot the change the cams, then they failed). Agreed, it was extremely expensive though !
The CX4 Race is pulling the same power, so theoretically no more strain (not knowing the component changes, it might just be a magnesium case like a Brose Mag S with bonded bearings and then lots of failures...) However it ups assistance in Race mode to 400% from 340% so you don't have to pedal as hard for the same assistance (for example, the EP8 is 400%). The other obvious change is the longer over run, which means you can crank it over obstacles easier and learn to use those moments to your performance advantage.
Presumably, the limited run means there is an exception to the pedalec rules as I thought the overrun was limited to less than that.
It's not so much more power as a change in the way the power is delivered.
RickBullotta
E*POWAH Elite World Champion
That was my take, and it seems that the Gen 3 Levo can be tuned similarly to the Bosch "Race" motor. 150g isn't so much of a big deal as you can usually drop 300-400g pre-race at the port-a-potty.
Can’t get anywhere near it at the moment. I’ve tried!
The Brose has a distinct lag in crank to power; especially on the very first small rotation of the pedal - it takes a slight crank rotation to get going. Bosch is instant.
You’ll only really notice if you ride both a lot and on steep uphill techy climbs.
No way to get a similar feel of instant support. No way to get similar level of predictable over run.
it’s massively noticeable in technical climbs, and starting from very steep sections.
bosch sensor technology is quicker, and the motor is more predictable.
I also think Specialized have detuned the initial power on the initial pedal rotation and I suspect it’s to protect the belts at low cadences.
I’ve tried so much to get my 2022 Kenevo to perform like the Bosch, but it’s impossible.
Brose does have an advantage of no ratchet points in the motor though, so the gearing engages quicker. But this doesn’t make up for the slight lag in electrical power being applied.
A bad comparison, but how I can describe it, is that Brose feels more like a diesel engine. Bosch like a Tesla.
The race performance was built in....to get access to the full power, you just need to remove 1 electrical plug in the wiring harness.
This enabled the extra set of fuel injectors and got the full power of the engine.
To get extra performance, you can allways rebuit the engine with special parts (every 2000km).
So presumably a software update could allow race mode to be implemented on any regular CX?
Personally I really dislike any sort of overrun, I like my motor to replicate how a normal bike behaves as I swap between regular and EMTB a fair bit, and every time I ride a Bosch it catches me out, however thats likely because I dont ride them day in and day out.
Personally I really dislike any sort of overrun, I like my motor to replicate how a normal bike behaves as I swap between regular and EMTB a fair bit, and every time I ride a Bosch it catches me out, however thats likely because I dont ride them day in and day out.
Mondraker Crafty too to my certain knowledge.
from memory here the teams using EWS-E bikes using Bosch, and will are all highly likely to have a Race Motor specced in their bike’s available to purchase at some point in the future
Pole
Lapierre
Bulls
Miranda
Orbea
Trek
Haibike
Cube
Ibis
Cannondale
Mondraker
Pole
Lapierre
Bulls
Miranda
Orbea
Trek
Haibike
Cube
Ibis
Cannondale
Mondraker
I love the over run feature, allows me to clear tricky sections without pedal strikes by giving a dab on the cranks and that little burst gets you through.
Would be great to have a software update that allows you to customise the over run.
yorkshire89
E*POWAH Master
I'm a big fan of the overrun when you are in flatter tricky sections where you can't get a full pedal in, really helps keep flow in certain places.
I can see why people prefer the more natural feeling, but I've got a normal bike for that. It's nice to ride something that feels different and takes time to get the best out of.
I can see why people prefer the more natural feeling, but I've got a normal bike for that. It's nice to ride something that feels different and takes time to get the best out of.
If the overrun could be adjustable by the user, it could be usefull to all.
It could be in number of milliseconds....so set it to zero to disable it, and set it to 2000 to get 2 seconds.
Than would be usefull (and maybe allready implemented, I just dont know it)
It could be in number of milliseconds....so set it to zero to disable it, and set it to 2000 to get 2 seconds.
Than would be usefull (and maybe allready implemented, I just dont know it)
I doubt Bosch had to do much to implement the race mode. German engineering being typically Conservative and cautious the gen 4 was launched with 80nm and only one it proved reliable did they issue a software update to 85nm. I ride gen4 now and previously the Brose (2019 version with no subsequent software updates). The gen4 needs more rider input across the range but can be made to feel similar by using c65 cadence when you would be doing c 50 on the Brose.
I think once the race gen4 versions prove to be reliable some aspects of the software change will be offered for existing gen 4 smart system motors......probably simply as additional tuning options in the flow app. It is after all only altering the amp feed relationship to rider torque and cadence software algorithms.
I think once the race gen4 versions prove to be reliable some aspects of the software change will be offered for existing gen 4 smart system motors......probably simply as additional tuning options in the flow app. It is after all only altering the amp feed relationship to rider torque and cadence software algorithms.
RickBullotta
E*POWAH Elite World Champion
Interesting. I had to turn "Acceleration Response" to 0 on my Levo because it was too "instant".
I am not anti the overrun, its just not something that adds any appeal to me - I still, and always have, viewed and EMTB as a way to get to the top of a trail quicker, and I want it to ride down the trail as much lime a normal bike as possible. As much as I do enjoy trying an impossible climb from time to time, climbing ability isn't really something I factor into a purchase.
Wouldn't dissuade me from a Bosch, would just be something I had to adjust to.
Wouldn't dissuade me from a Bosch, would just be something I had to adjust to.
Alexbn921
Well-known member
I'm all for it. It's just another option and might make for faster times with a less natural feel. Of course you don't need to use Race mode.
My main thing is that I hope its reliable and serviceable.
Ibis has a Ebike. You don't say.
My main thing is that I hope its reliable and serviceable.
Ibis has a Ebike. You don't say.
The auto manufacturers sell "specials" like this and try to dissuade mere mortals from buying them for street use by deleting things like A/C, rear seat, radio... The specials generally require plenty of maintenance, wear out parts like crazy, are demanding to drive, and don't last long. They sure are fun!
For awhile, give me something made for daily riding.
I have seen a report from a german review pointing out as one of the main changes is that the CX Race is optimized for Higher Cadence Ranges, possible to give decent support upwards of 120rpm range.
If that is true and the fact that Bosch didn't want to spit out anything about the internal changes of the motor, that tells to me, that they had to implement some internal motor gearing changes to make that possible.
As internal gearing is the main limiting factor(due to space constrains)for good support in higher cadences in today's motors.
The CX Performance Gen4 is optimized to 80rpm as far as I know.
If the Race has this limit higher in the 90rpm's range, that would be something radically new that none of the other players have and would mean a significant advantage on really steep climbs where high cadence(low gears/big sprockets) is used.
With a higher cadence optimized motor you don't loose the torque levels as fast as you would with one that is optimized for lower cadences.
I think the future of ebike mtb motors should go into making motors optimized for higher cadences and tuning different modes according to the usual average cadence used in that specific mode.
✌
If that is true and the fact that Bosch didn't want to spit out anything about the internal changes of the motor, that tells to me, that they had to implement some internal motor gearing changes to make that possible.
As internal gearing is the main limiting factor(due to space constrains)for good support in higher cadences in today's motors.
The CX Performance Gen4 is optimized to 80rpm as far as I know.
If the Race has this limit higher in the 90rpm's range, that would be something radically new that none of the other players have and would mean a significant advantage on really steep climbs where high cadence(low gears/big sprockets) is used.
With a higher cadence optimized motor you don't loose the torque levels as fast as you would with one that is optimized for lower cadences.
I think the future of ebike mtb motors should go into making motors optimized for higher cadences and tuning different modes according to the usual average cadence used in that specific mode.
✌
Mabman
E*POWAH Elite World Champion
Bosch can do what they want and say it is the fastest but as in all things racing you have to respect the Open Class.....
MOTO13
Active member
How the fuck do you finish 3rd in a 2 man race?
RickBullotta
E*POWAH Elite World Champion
I have seen a report from a german review pointing out as one of the main changes is that the CX Race is optimized for Higher Cadence Ranges, possible to give decent support upwards of 120rpm range.
If that is true and the fact that Bosch didn't want to spit out anything about the internal changes of the motor, that tells to me, that they had to implement some internal motor gearing changes to make that possible.
As internal gearing is the main limiting factor(due to space constrains)for good support in higher cadences in today's motors.
The CX Performance Gen4 is optimized to 80rpm as far as I know.
If the Race has this limit higher in the 90rpm's range, that would be something radically new that none of the other players have and would mean a significant advantage on really steep climbs where high cadence(low gears/big sprockets) is used.
With a higher cadence optimized motor you don't loose the torque levels as fast as you would with one that is optimized for lower cadences.
I think the future of ebike mtb motors should go into making motors optimized for higher cadences and tuning different modes according to the usual average cadence used in that specific mode.
The Levo is optimized for 85, FWIW. Given that you really don't need big gears for downhills, the low gears are already pretty low on a lot of eMTBs with 12 speed rear cassettes. A 32-52 with 400% boost is gonna get you up just about anything that the laws of physics would let you get up.
I am aware of the cassette/chainring gearing and how your example gets you up almost anything, but in racing it's how fast it gets u up anything what matters.
I am not talking about cassette/chainring gearing, but about motor internal gearing that down-gears your input cadence to an reasonable rpm for the electric motor inside that then does not need to spin to fast, as when it spins to fast the torque decreases pretty fast what you can see nicely in the attached graphics...not sure where exactly the graphics are from found them on the forums, but for example purposes they are quite clear, you can see the relation of torque/power to cadence.
Now imagine a motor that has the ideal cadence range shifted higher into the low 100s.
Don't know how often you follow your cadence when climbing physics possible climbs in the 32-52 combo?
I do and my best possible combo is 36-51 and my cadence is way over 100rpm...so yours is even higher with the lower combo...now if you check where the torque is at those higher cadences you can see that a motor optimized for higher cadences has an advantage in power and torque at given cadence. Time will tell if the CX Race really has new guts inside. Definitely hope so as I think this is what the emtb motors are missing, higher cadence support.
A good example of this kind of thinking is the R&D of the new TQ HPR50 where because of no multiple gears inside, they didn't have this limitation and at their testing they found out that riders sometimes with short half stroke pedaling reach cadences north of 140rpm so they optimized their motor much higher because of the design they could.
The classic motor design with multiple gears have some limitations because of the space constrain.
Well so much from me...✌ happy riding
Mabman
E*POWAH Elite World Champion
I am in agreement with the above. Even the Bafang M620 rewards a high cadence and the lower power motor we are looking into is rated up to 120 rpm. In the old 125mx days we talked about the "power band" and "keeping it on the pipe" and while not exactly the same it is close whenever dealing with low h.p. systems.
RickBullotta
E*POWAH Elite World Champion
I am aware of the cassette/chainring gearing and how your example gets you up almost anything, but in racing it's how fast it gets u up anything what matters.
I am not talking about cassette/chainring gearing, but about motor internal gearing that down-gears your input cadence to an reasonable rpm for the electric motor inside that then does not need to spin to fast, as when it spins to fast the torque decreases pretty fast what you can see nicely in the attached graphics...not sure where exactly the graphics are from found them on the forums, but for example purposes they are quite clear, you can see the relation of torque/power to cadence.
View attachment 98220
Now imagine a motor that has the ideal cadence range shifted higher into the low 100s.
Don't know how often you follow your cadence when climbing physics possible climbs in the 32-52 combo?
I do and my best possible combo is 36-51 and my cadence is way over 100rpm...so yours is even higher with the lower combo...now if you check where the torque is at those higher cadences you can see that a motor optimized for higher cadences has an advantage in power and torque at given cadence. Time will tell if the CX Race really has new guts inside. Definitely hope so as I think this is what the emtb motors are missing, higher cadence support.
A good example of this kind of thinking is the R&D of the new TQ HPR50 where because of no multiple gears inside, they didn't have this limitation and at their testing they found out that riders sometimes with short half stroke pedaling reach cadences north of 140rpm so they optimized their motor much higher because of the design they could.
The classic motor design with multiple gears have some limitations because of the space constrain.
Well so much from me...✌ happy riding
My XC race cadence was usually 85-90 anyway. Not sure why I'd want a motor optimized for 100+
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