New Bosch Tour + Mode

GrahamPaul said:
First ride out this morning with the new Tour+ Mode. Very impressed. It really is a keeper.

Where I would expect to be using Eco, I switched down from Tour+ and back up and there was absolutely no difference. However, with gradients, I just kept my cadence and pressed a bit harder and just kinda glided up. Chap I was with was busily switching through Tour/MTB/Turbo over the same rises. Certainly gave the heart a workout until the last climb home, where I switched into Turbo proper for the boring bit.

Next thing is to try some technical climbs to see how predictable it is. I find EMTB too easy to spin out the back wheel. Hopefully this new mode surges a little less and is more controllable.
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I thought the same last night. A really nice balance of everything for me. I’ll have to have a proper long ride to see how the battery is impacted though but I’m keen to get out on the techy steep stuff to see how it gets on.
 
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GrahamPaul said:
Chap I was with was busily switching through Tour/MTB/Turbo over the same rises.
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It's great you're enjoying Tour+, I'm reading everyone's comments with interest. Not sure if I will get Tour+ or EMTB Lite, or just not bother. I never use Tour , I find it surges on technical climbs, I find EMTB more natural, but I do have to be careful how I apply the power on tight switchbacks. Never use Turbo, I find it utterly pointless since EMTB will give you that level of assistance when it's needed anyway. What I don't understand is people flicking through the modes. Isn't the whole point of EMTB to avoid the need to do that?
 
I just got back from a short ride and it had some long, steepish tracks and some short, steep tracks. 1467ft, 16 miles and it says I have 36 miles of range left. I’m very impressed. I feel like I’m getting a better work out too! it’s strange, you can get up anything but you have to work for it. It really is a mode I can select and forget. Going to see how it copes on a long ride next week.
 
Philly G said:
It's great you're enjoying Tour+, I'm reading everyone's comments with interest. Not sure if I will get Tour+ or EMTB Lite, or just not bother. I never use Tour , I find it surges on technical climbs, I find EMTB more natural, but I do have to be careful how I apply the power on tight switchbacks. Never use Turbo, I find it utterly pointless since EMTB will give you that level of assistance when it's needed anyway. What I don't understand is people flicking through the modes. Isn't the whole point of EMTB to avoid the need to do that?
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EMTB gives a support level which varies from TOUR to TURBO.

The new TOUR+ gives a support level which varies from ECO to TURBO.

Therefore the support variation is much greater than that provided by EMTB. It's what (IMHO) EMTB should have been all along.

I'm surprised that you find TOUR surges in technical climbs. Given that EMTB starts off at TOUR as the base support level, that just does not make sense. Did you miss type TOUR for TURBO?

As for flicking through the support levels, if I left it in EMTB I'd never get the range that I'm used and it gives way too much support. I might as well buy a motorobike...
 
Philly G said:
It's great you're enjoying Tour+, I'm reading everyone's comments with interest. Not sure if I will get Tour+ or EMTB Lite, or just not bother. I never use Tour , I find it surges on technical climbs, I find EMTB more natural, but I do have to be careful how I apply the power on tight switchbacks. Never use Turbo, I find it utterly pointless since EMTB will give you that level of assistance when it's needed anyway. What I don't understand is people flicking through the modes. Isn't the whole point of EMTB to avoid the need to do that?
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I have found I use Tour + more than emtb now. I didn't think it would be something I'd be bothered with initially but it is actually quite good & I never used tour before anyway.
I found tour to be a bit useless in context really & only use turbo for the last blast up the hill to cram in a final downhill for when you're already late for dinner.
I feel a bit more 'honest' with the climbs as it doesn't kick into cheating turbo mode when you don't want it. I only flick up to emtb if there is a steep bit coming & need that tiny bit of boost. I'd say get it loaded & you'll probably appreciate it.
 
GrahamPaul said:
EMTB gives a support level which varies from TOUR to TURBO.

The new TOUR+ gives a support level which varies from ECO to TURBO.
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See I've never found it kicking into turbo just felt between eco & tour - unless it's a turbo lite? :-)
 
GrahamPaul said:
I'm surprised that you find TOUR surges in technical climbs. Given that EMTB starts off at TOUR as the base support level, that just does not make sense. Did you miss type TOUR for TURBO?
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No miss-type...my experience is that the way the modes deliver the power is different. If I'm on a climbing trail with steep tight switchbacks, I find TOUR gives too much power , perhaps surge is the wrong word...EMTB on the other hand I find smoother and easier to control. So it's not about the assist levels, but the way the power is delivered...makes sense to me, YMMV
 
Doug Stampfer said:
See I've never found it kicking into turbo just felt between eco & tour - unless it's a turbo lite? :)
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You have to push those pedals really hard to get the turbo effect. Looking at the curves on this thread, you'll see that the rider input defines how much the motor adds - and it adds it much later than EMTB. (The curve for "MAGICTOUR" pretty much describes how I feel TOUR+ working). I got up a 30% ramp this morning in TOUR+, which was a surprise, but my heart was nearly bouncing out of my chest! ?
 
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Philly G said:
No miss-type...my experience is that the way the modes deliver the power is different. If I'm on a climbing trail with steep tight switchbacks, I find TOUR gives too much power , perhaps surge is the wrong word...EMTB on the other hand I find smoother and easier to control. So it's not about the assist levels, but the way the power is delivered...makes sense to me, YMMV
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I guess it's the different ways we ride :)
 
I did the Beast at Coed Y Brenin yesterday all on Tour+ and it was great. I think if I had not had it I would have been switching from Tour to EMBT and back a few times. It’s working for me at the moment. (y)
 
Hobo Mikey said:
I did the Beast at Coed Y Brenin yesterday all on Tour+ and it was great. I think if I had not had it I would have been switching from Tour to EMBT and back a few times. It’s working for me at the moment. (y)
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Is that embt another new mode that connects seamlessly to you mobile phone ???
 
To be fair that was written just prior to crashing out after being on the road since 5.00am to pick my son & 3 mates up from a field that serves cream ( near Warrington) ..at least I think thats why they have been camping there for the last four days ..I also took them down last Thursday ..
It seemed a bloody noisy place to keep a dairy herd ..but very popular as it took me 2hrs to move the last 3 miles ...? ?
Havent had a chance to watch it ..but this apparently is some footage of the herd..
 
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GrahamPaul said:
I might as well buy a motorobike...
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Lol, I use eMTB all the time, because I just want to go fast. I still push around 200w myself but that pretty much eats a 625W battery in two hours. That ~200w effort level, I can't hold more than that for 2 hours (2 hour interspersed with descending, of course). I'm pedaling a fair amount more than if I had a motorbike :).

So now I have to think about using lesser modes for longer rides. I could just get another battery to leave in the car :) Or, just kill myself in two hours and go home...

EDIT: ok I've read more about Tour+ I'll give it a try :) damn I have to take the volspeed off...
 
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GrahamPaul said:
You have to push those pedals really hard to get the turbo effect. Looking at the curves on this thread, you'll see that the rider input defines how much the motor adds - and it adds it much later than EMTB. (The curve for "MAGICTOUR" pretty much describes how I feel TOUR+ working).
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There isn't an official document about the Tour+ power level? Are we sure it gets to delivering 100% at some level of rider effort?
 
Gyre said:
I can see how someone may reach different conclusions. I'm like you in that I'd find the word "surge" to more aptly describe the "Tour+" ramp-up than I would the higher initial support level of "Tour-".
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I can certainly agree with that. There was a steep hill straight outside the LBS which I stamped on the pedals to get up with my latest motor update. Tour+ really did put in a surge and I nearly took it straight back to the shop to have it taken off again.

Having now ridden with it for 150km, I've got used to it and understand that it is entirely dependent on how hard I press the pedals as to how much assistance I'm going to get.

There is still a place for EMTB (going up a stoney 450m over climb 6km non-stop yesterday, for example. There just wasn't enough support for my poor old legs using Tour+. If I didn't keep pushing really hard then the support assistance dropped to ECO ?) and Turbo is still there for that final 2km @ 10% which I have to climb to get home. That's just plain boredom, having done it so many times, that it's nice just to "soft pedal" the bike home as though it was a motorbike.
 
Zed said:
Lol, I use eMTB all the time, because I just want to go fast. I still push around 200w myself but that pretty much eats a 625W battery in two hours. That ~200w effort level, I can't hold more than that for 2 hours (2 hour interspersed with descending, of course). I'm pedaling a fair amount more than if I had a motorbike :).

So now I have to think about using lesser modes for longer rides. I could just get another battery to leave in the car :) Or, just kill myself in two hours and go home...

EDIT: ok I've read more about Tour+ I'll give it a try :) damn I have to take the volspeed off...
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I think you might be disappointed. Tour+ gives less support than Tour. It's meant for riders who want a bit more of a workout than was available using the ECO/TOUR step up. A given level of pedal pressure at TOUR would give a significantly higher level of motor support than the equivalent pedal pressure at ECO. Applying that same pedal pressure to TOUR+ will likely mean that the support level is still ECO (if you see what I mean).

Put another way, if you are used to tanking around in EMTB with only minimal pedal pressure, then you are going to be as disappointed as hell by Tour+. It's meant for use by riders who want more leg input to their ride.
 
GrahamPaul said:
I think you might be disappointed. Tour+ gives less support than Tour.
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For somebody soft-pedaling at 100w or less I'd totally agree. I think the breakeven point is roughly 200w. At 300w and high cadence, you'll definitely get more from Tour+.
 
GrahamPaul said:
I guess it's the different ways we ride :)
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looking at the above. Is PhilG on a Trek Rail? As his version of Tour would actually be “Trek Emtb-lite” which is a dynamic assist mode similar in feel to EMTB but with max assist lower than EMTB.

Where as Graham’s could be the normal static Tour assist at 140%.
 
Got Tour+ loaded at the LBS yesterday. I don't muck around :)
Went for a ride this morning, duplicating a ride I did 2 days ago in eMtb mode.
First, this is in eMTB, this is my local trails and a ride I'm doing frequently as I'm working on shedding some lard:
1630536197866.png


Same ride in Tour+ this morning. I wasn't feeling it as much, felt a little less fresh and it had been raining overnight. But I think it's a decent enough length to see the difference.
1630534715144.png


First, I think Tour+ is much better at filling it's intended purpose that Tour was. With the old Tour if you put more effort in you didn't really get a reward so that meant it just became a drudgy long slow ride and meh that's not why I wanted an ebike. Tour+ makes it so you can push harder and get something back, most noticeable on hills or on approaches to jumps, but you can dial up speed anywhere with some leg torque. I'm using a volspeed and found getting to 32 limiter for a gap jump no problem at all.

Fun wise? eMtb is noticeably more exciting, especially out of corners. It was wet this morning, so that would have been a factor with overall excitement, but the bike felt more muted.

The numbers are interesting though. Average speed 19 vs 22km/h, 15 mins longer over 32kms for Tour+ (but it was also wet), heart rate difference pretty negligible. Average power output a smidge more with Tour+ but not significant either. My max output was more in eMtb I would assume because I was having more fun, and in a better mindset. There is a little better fat burn workout in Tour+ for me with some more calories out. But that's pedaling calories - I don't think the extra calorie expenditure of descending faster, working the bike etc, is in these calorie burn numbers here. Don't really know what that equates to I guess.

I have more fun and thus I naturally work a little harder in some places in eMtb, and this offsets the increased motor assist somewhat I suspect. A somewhat different kind of effort between the two modes.

Long story short. I put in pretty much the same pedaling effort whichever mode - but the bike adds more in eMtb so I go faster, have more fun, and burn more battery.

Now, battery usage, well... Tour+ 52% remaining, eMtb 29% remaining.

**EDIT: While the shop was flashing the Tour+ upgrade in, the guy said some of the battery was partitioned off for lights, and he gave me that back. I didn't think to ask how much battery I'd been missing because of it, but that'd be a factor in there with the battery usage difference.

Bosch says:
Tour+ 59% motor, 41% my effort
eMtb 71% motor, 29% my effort

I think my effort isn't varying a lot. The bikes' effort is though.

My conclusion, I think Tour+ is a nice upgrade over Tour and a good mode to get more battery range (vs eMtb) without crippling the bike too much. It's certainly what I would use for any range anxiety ride or maybe for a long slow ride if I was doing a training program. It opens the door to doing longer trail rides and exploring (a bit) further afield, and is for sure the best low power mode I've used so far (I had a gen 2 Levo and an e8000 before).

But eMtb mode is more fun and what I'll use generally, whenever I have the battery to cover it :)
 
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@Zed , interesting figures. Your power input appears to indicate that you are (more or less) applying the same pressure to your pedals for both modes. That would also translate into a longer ride time, lower average speed and more remaining battery.

Do you have a power meter on your pedals/cranks? (Strava gives us lowly cheapskates only an "Estimated Average Power")
 
L666GTB said:
looking at the above. Is PhilG on a Trek Rail? As his version of Tour would actually be “Trek Emtb-lite” which is a dynamic assist mode similar in feel to EMTB but with max assist lower than EMTB.
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You can choose between normal tour, Emtb Lite or Tour+ in Trek Rail.
 
Hamina said:
You can choose between normal tour, Emtb Lite or Tour+ in Trek Rail.
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I dont know why we cant all have ECO-TOUR-TOUR+-EMTB-TURBO. It would certainly give us all some good flexible options.

Mind you, it seems Bosch have solved this with their new system. New bike anyone?!
 
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