New Bosch CX generation 5 - seal/bush problem

[RN611]

Hi there, my first time posting anything anywhere but I feel this is important. Not sure if this is the correct place to post this but I have a vala x01 and after two rides I could feel the motor moving through the pedals. Further investigation revealed the non drive side bushings were moving in the frame to the extent the drive side of the frame would not of been long before breaking.
I contacted my local bike shop and went to look at a brand new bike only to see same problem. It seems someone has messed up and all the motor mount dimensions and the holes in the frames are drilled/formed too large for the bushings. I am 5 weeks in and still nothing been done under warranty.
Rather than send the bike back as not fit for purpose as I quite like it I have had my local engineering place make new bushes out of acetal. They are tight fit and larger diameter on inside so can only be fitted from inside with motor removed. This eliminates the bushings being able to come outwards. I also had the bushings made so they have a 0.5 mm tolerance laterally instead of floating so to help with lateral strength from a pedal strike as the non drive side frame can now share the loading. The main mount has a rubber busing inside so motor is still not held still and can move on the Bosch main mount as designed.
We used a couple small o rings to centralise the square threaded plate drive side as holes that side were a joke. We torqued everything up to 20nm as per Bosch spec and having done 70 miles of enduro type riding all is well.
Please see pics below of what we have done. As you can see the Bosch bushes are like new and are correct diameter it’s the frame that’s the problem.
I’m not moaning about the brand as things go wrong but this is an easy fix and hopefully will help someone sort this out.
Just a note from an above post the original bushes should be fitted from the inside so if they are coming out they are scrap and more likely the frame is the same as mine.
I have a video of the movement in the frame before modifying but I can’t seem to attach it.


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Hola and I hope I am not too late for this post. I am having exactly the same issue with my Vala. I contacted Santa Cruz and they said that it was "normal" to have that play and movement. However, they also said that Bosch is working on a new bushing that will reduce that movement considerably. I do not think it's normal at all and I am afraid that I will cause some damage to the mounting spot in the frame, like you mentioned.
Any chance you can sell a set of those bushings that you had made since you got the tolerances on point?
Thank you in advance.

 

[Boogz83]

The bolts are designed to flex the issue are the bushes falling out if yours aren’t don’t worry about it.
Putting a DIY bush into the frame is a really bad idea, if it cracks the frame your screwed

 

[cobra22]

The bolts are designed to flex the issue are the bushes falling out if yours aren’t don’t worry about it.
Putting a DIY bush into the frame is a really bad idea, if it cracks the frame your screwed

The bushings are designed to allow for axial play and a small amount of radial play, rubber coated to reduce noise. I don't see anything wrong with his DIY bushings as long as they are toleranced right.

 

[Jambo 777]

The bushings are designed to allow for axial play and a small amount of radial play, rubber coated to reduce noise. I don't see anything wrong with his DIY bushings as long as they are toleranced right.

Good morning, I’m sad to hear another Vala with same issue although not surprised.
I have over 500 miles of enduro riding on my bike since we put the modified bushes in and as expected I have had no issues.
I can asked the engineers that done mine if they can make some for you but you will need to take accurate measurements of the current frame holes or it won’t be any good. I would think you would be better to go to a local engineer and let them do it.
My friend has a Norco and is suffering with same issue so I wonder if Bosch gave the manufacturers the wrong band of tolerance for the frame holes.
After 4 months my local shop has contacted me to say Bosch have now made larger bushings and they have some for me. Hopefully this will sort the problem for others.
Bosch are aware of what I’ve done and have pictures, they were happy with my fix until they came up with a solution. I however won’t be changing what I’ve done as it’s a permanent fix to the problem anyway.
Hope you get it sorted soon!

 

[António13_PT]

I also had this problem and have already replaced the original bushings.
The bike is a Cube hybrid One 44 HPC and I am not very aggressive when riding, no jumps or anything like that.

The front screw bushing came out again.
800 Km and two bushings / sleeves...

The code I purchased is Bosch EB112000SM.
Is this the correct code for the new bushings, or is there a later, revised version?

 

[eaxford]

I have also a Vala that has had multiple bushings fall out. Always the lower one. Santa Cruz sent me a set of bushings and so did Bosch. The Bosch supplied ones said V2. I couldn’t tell the difference and they came out also. Contacted Santa Cruz’s incredible customer service team and they overnighted me a V3 version which came with new bolts with a ridge on them and some plastic sleeves. Bolts are the same length. No installation instructions. I think the plastic sleeves will float in the frame and the ridge on the bolt keeps if from falling out. Kind of like the one that was self engineered earlier in this thread I have not tried the installation yet as the one I have is not fallen out again yet. Here is a picture of the new and old bushings and bolts. Anyone else received these and installed them yet?

 

[Jambo 777]

Looks to me that after version 5 they will end up doing what I had done back in March . Those sleeves look like acetal to me!

 

[Eliadn]

So is there a solution to this? My father has the Cube one44 and he can be pretty conspirative about everything and is already starting to regret the bike (the most expensive he has ever bought, despite disapproval from my mother...).
I find about and send to him all the various issues there can be, and can tell he is getting more pissed with every "new" thing he has to check.

 

[RN611]

So is there a solution to this? My father has the Cube one44 and he can be pretty conspirative about everything and is already starting to regret the bike (the most expensive he has ever bought, despite disapproval from my mother...).
I find about and send to him all the various issues there can be, and can tell he is getting more pissed with every "new" thing he has to check.

I have also a Vala that has had multiple bushings fall out. Always the lower one. Santa Cruz sent me a set of bushings and so did Bosch. The Bosch supplied ones said V2. I couldn’t tell the difference and they came out also. Contacted Santa Cruz’s incredible customer service team and they overnighted me a V3 version which came with new bolts with a ridge on them and some plastic sleeves. Bolts are the same length. No installation instructions. I think the plastic sleeves will float in the frame and the ridge on the bolt keeps if from falling out. Kind of like the one that was self engineered earlier in this thread I have not tried the installation yet as the one I have is not fallen out again yet. Here is a picture of the new and old bushings and bolts. Anyone else received these and installed them yet?

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Happy Monday
I did get a set of those latest bolts and plastic sleeves and ended up installing the new version bolts to my existing bushings that seemed ok.
And problems solved.
No more play and no more creaking sounds.
My vala is happy now and I have been riding hard.

 

[Truckeemtb]

Happy Monday
I did get a set of those latest bolts and plastic sleeves and ended up installing the new version bolts to my existing bushings that seemed ok.
And problems solved.
No more play and no more creaking sounds.
My vala is happy now and I have been riding hard.

Where did you get the v3 bushings and bolts. I contacted Santa Cruz. Took them a week to respond with voice mails and emails sent. They told me they dont have any. My local dealers can't get them either. I have a Vala with less than 700 miles and 2.5 months old. I am in Truckee California near Lake Tahoe. Not going to lie, frustrated with SC. We have 2 SL'S and 5 motors. They basically told me to get a Vala and I feel a bit blown off by their customer service. We have been through a lot with the SL'S. Last year took months to get wifes motor replaced. The last two have been pretty quick. Any help is appreciated.

 

[RN611]

Where did you get the v3 bushings and bolts. I contacted Santa Cruz. Took them a week to respond with voice mails and emails sent. They told me they dont have any. My local dealers can't get them either. I have a Vala with less than 700 miles and 2.5 months old. I am in Truckee California near Lake Tahoe. Not going to lie, frustrated with SC. We have 2 SL'S and 5 motors. They basically told me to get a Vala and I feel a bit blown off by their customer service. We have been through a lot with the SL'S. Last year took months to get wifes motor replaced. The last two have been pretty quick. Any help is appreciated.

Interesting.
I got them from Santa Cruz at no cost.
Response very quick.
And got them in a week or less.
In Gilbert AZ.
I was very frustrated with the bike too to be honest.
Luckily we got sorted out.
I hope that helps.

 

[Shark58]

According to the SantaCruz website, under any of the Vala bikes and there setup & support - exploded diagrams (vala-x-0-axs-rsv-2026) you can find these bolts and sleeves specified as V2 for the aluminum frames. For carbon frames they still specify the old bolts and sleeves.

 

[RN611]

According to the SantaCruz website, under any of the Vala bikes and there setup & support - exploded diagrams (vala-x-0-axs-rsv-2026) you can find these bolts and sleeves specified as V2 for the aluminum frames. For carbon frames they still specify the old bolts and sleeves.

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Interesting.
Well, here is my Vala (carbon) story.
I bought it brand new.
On ride 1 I noticed play on the motor and a creaking sound when pedaling.
I took it to my LBS which is a Bosch certified location and they called Bosch and Santa Cruz.
They both said that a flex was needed to help with the torque.
However it was excessive in my opinion.
So we left it alone.
My bushings never fell or were even loose.
The play was between the heads of the bolts and the inner parts of the frame bushings. Very clear.
So I contacted SC myself and they sent me those updated bolts and plastic shims. The ones on that image.
However when installing, I compared and measured the heads of the old vs new bolts. And the new bolts are bigger.
I tested with everything in place but with the new bolts, and everything was solid.
So basically I only replaced the bolts. That’s it.
My motor is solid now.
I am sure there is some interior flex in the design that I can’t feel with my fingers.
I have now a few hundred miles on the bike and it’s stilll solid.
Very happy.
I kinda knew that being a new bike with a new motor, there was going to be some time for both companies to get the right hardware developed.
And I was very frustrated as well. I understand.
I would try those new bolts and give them a shot.
I hope this helps.

 

[eaxford]

@RN611, thanks for your time line. Mine is a little different as I only have had the rear bushing come out of the frame multiple times. Obviously there is movement that pushes it out. SC and Bosch sent me different versions of the V1 and V2 bushings which still had the same issue. Now that SC has sent me the V3's I was trying to figure out exactly how they are to be installed. I think that you are onto something and I will compare the head diameter measurements of the bolts tonight. The bushings supplied do not slide over the heads of the bolts. Maybe Bosch intends to put the bushings into the frame and then screw the bolts in which will force them into place creating a press fit of sorts? Since the plastic sleeves are longer possibly they bottom out on the motor when installing. I contacted Bosch and they said to "take it to your dealer" Dealer has never seen the V3's yet. I think that @Jambo777 had the best idea from the beginning. @Jambo777 do you have the dimensions of the bushing you made or have your guy make some more? Would be easier than trying to come up them myself

 

[eaxford]

Where did you get the v3 bushings and bolts. I contacted Santa Cruz. Took them a week to respond with voice mails and emails sent. They told me they dont have any. My local dealers can't get them either. I have a Vala with less than 700 miles and 2.5 months old. I am in Truckee California near Lake Tahoe. Not going to lie, frustrated with SC. We have 2 SL'S and 5 motors. They basically told me to get a Vala and I feel a bit blown off by their customer service. We have been through a lot with the SL'S. Last year took months to get wifes motor replaced. The last two have been pretty quick. Any help is appreciated.

Sorry you are frustrated. I opened a support case with SC and they responded within a day or so and had the updated parts within a few days. Good communication in my case. Not so much with Bosch though. They are frustrating. A month ago they would not admit that there were any updated bolts, though Bosch had supplied images of them to their parts suppliers and they were posted online.

 

[eaxford]

@RN611 was correct. I measured the diameter of both the old and new bolts and the new V3 bolts are .022 larger in diameter. This would definitely create a tighter fit using the original DU bushings. SC provided me with the V3 installation image. Effectively the plastic sleeve gets pushed into the frame and when you tighten the bolt, it expands the plastic sleeve into a press fit in the frame. Not sure if these sleeves are one time use or not. I also am going to try just using the V3 bolts and if that does not work then go full V3 bolts and sleeves

.

 

[Shark58]

This is from an article I found in the German bike magazine. The text is only available in German and I let Safari do the translation.

Bosch reacts​

According to Bosch, the problem has been known for some time, but it is limited to a few individual cases. The manufacturer also emphasizes that minimal play due to the floating bearing is construction-related and unproblematic. Even a visible wobbling under load is therefore no cause for concern. Only when the play intensifies, noises occur, the driving feeling suffers or sockets wear out, there is a need for action. According to its own statement, Bosch has nevertheless worked intensively on a revised solution in recent months due to problematic individual cases.

Photo: Max Fuchs The "upgrade kit" (pictured) works like a spreading dowel: When tightening, a conically shaped bolt head presses the socket open - which gets stuck in the frame and now also sits firmly in the frame on the unscrewed side.

Result: From autumn, new sockets and bolts for the affected motors will be available free of charge via the Bosch service and the specialist trade. The "upgrade kit" works like a spreading dowel: When tightened, a conically shaped bolt head presses the socket - which gets stuck in the frame and now also sits firmly in the frame on the unscrewed side. In this way, Bosch wants to better compensate for manufacturing tolerances and prevent too much play on the engine suspension. All clear for all those affected: According to Bosch, light bushing play is not an acute problem. There is no safety risk anyway, since the motor should sit firmly in the frame even without sockets and therefore there is no risk of falling or the like.

 

[vds]

They are crap quality just read the cube Facebook groups!

I bought a light weight hybrid one last year the headset failed, dropper failed, wheel hub was faulty, charging cover fell off and then the paint peeled off around shock mount! Cube customer care Uk were that bad I returned the bike and exchanged for a different model with the online store.

I love the new bike but already at 3 weeks old the sram shifter was draining and the battery going flat overnight and now the motor mount has fallen out

I get emtb are more complicated but never has this much grief in 35 years of riding! I’ve only managed about 400 miles on both bikes combined.

I get a lot of that is component related but still not great! On top of that whilst replacing the dropper I found 2 random torx screw rattling around loose in the frame!

Mine from new had a faulty shifter sram replaced that had to wait a couple of weeks

 

[jayx4]

 

[jayx4]

View attachment 168114

I currently own a Devinci E-Troy and was chasing a creak, which I finally fixed by changing the mounting sleeves. What's odd is this gap . I'd noticed it before, so I decided to remove both mounting bolts, replace the sleeves, center the motor, and tighten everything to 30 Nm. The noise/creak is now gone, but this gap is still odd; the other side presses tightly against the frame."

 

[Ea9818]

Hi Anyone had issues with the seal/ bush falling out of the new gen 5 CX motor?

They are fixed in with the new two bolt system and no body even seems to know the correct torque for T40 bolts.

View attachment 155446

Just happened to my Bullit 4

 

[Ea9818]

Working on a fix, but it seems like in one of the other threads I saw that there are skinny and wide bushings, and that the skinny ones may have been used by mistake on initial assembly.

 

[jayx4]

Interesting

Working on a fix, but it seems like in one of the other threads I saw that there are skinny and wide bushings, and that the skinny ones may have been used by mistake on initial assembly.

Interesting, I remember seeing different size rubber bushing when looking for the plastic sleeves. to replace I've posted on a different thread a pic of a Cube with the same gap?

 

[jayx4]

Now its starting to make sense I just read this article Spiel und Verschleiß bei SX und CX: Bosch äußert sich zu Toleranzproblemen

 

[eaxford]

Just happened to my Bullit 4

Give Santa Cruz a ring/message. They had my V3 bolts and sleeves to me in 2 days. I think it is in the Vala thread but there are many reports there with pics of the new bolts and experiences

 

[Deurkruk]

Well seems like the norco sight vlt cx has the same problem. I just bought mine two days ago and already missing a bushing. Going back to the dealer tomorrow to get it fixed. I will ask if he had any update from bosch regarding new bolts and bushings.

 

[Ea9818]

Well seems like the norco sight vlt cx has the same problem. I just bought mine two days ago and already missing a bushing. Going back to the dealer tomorrow to get it fixed. I will ask if he had any update from bosch regarding new bolts and bushings.

I’ve got three rides on the new bushing and it’s totally silent!

 

[Deurkruk]

I’ve got three rides on the new bushing and it’s totally silent!

Thats really good to hear! I've spoken to numerous dealers today and none of them heard of the new bolts or bushings. But they all had experienced this issue on multiple occasions. Looks like bosch did not send out e message to its dealers regarding updated bushings and bolts.

 

[Ea9818]

Thats really good to hear! I've spoken to numerous dealers today and none of them heard of the new bolts or bushings. But they all had experienced this issue on multiple occasions. Looks like bosch did not send out e message to its dealers regarding updated bushings and bolts.

I think it’s too soon to get the new bolts and bushings that just came out last week, you’ll be happy with just the updated frame sleeve bushing in the time being.

 

[Deurkruk]

oh the're that new! I missed that part. If the new bushing works i'm happy. I will just get the bolts when the become available.