LEVO / KENEVO GEN 2 7.4.2 Firmware Issues

[Zimmerframe]

Well said, I feel like it is becoming a boring bike with such updates...

Levo’s performance is (was?) one of the main reasons for people to buy it.

Updates are not supposed to change characterisitics of something you decided to pay premium for. If you are protecting the motor or components by restricting the performance, it’s just a trick. If they are under-sized fix that.

You've already said you have Blevo .. so you can use it to check the performance and put your results on here with your firmware and assistance settings from Mission Control.

 

[Zimmerframe]

The cable you pull off to charge it? You mean the lid to the charging port?

Yes. The "lid" is the main power cable to the motor. The "charging port" is where the power also comes from the battery - via the "lid" to the motor/tcu.

 

[Zimmerframe]

Well said, I feel like it is becoming a boring bike with such updates...

Levo’s performance is (was?) one of the main reasons for people to buy it.

Updates are not supposed to change characterisitics of something you decided to pay premium for. If you are protecting the motor or components by restricting the performance, it’s just a trick. If they are under-sized fix that.

Hang on, you've not even done the 7.4.2 update and you're complaining about performance loss ??

In other words, I am at 7.3.6 now and it is offering me the upgrade to 7.4.2. I want to know, will the upgrade at least improve what we lost with 7.3.6 (I mean real "turbo" performance and ability to overcome more difficult uphill terrains and also one of the reasons, why we bought this bike and not some other)?

So your problem could just be that the earlier updates, if you'd not updated Mission Control, dropped the acceleration response to 20% instead of 100% ?

Is it April fools again this week ?

 

[thbo]

Yes. The "lid" is the main power cable to the motor. The "charging port" is where the power also comes from the battery - via the "lid" to the motor/tcu.

Oh, yes of course. Thank you. I was thinking of actual hidden cables.

Well, the TCU is apparently getting power. And he has inspected and replaced lid, so I’m at a loss.

It would look like the firmware is the main suspect here though, maybe in a strange coincidence with the adding of the bike as new to another phone at the same time as updating...?

 

[#lazy]

Anyone have any tips??! Else I have to drive along way to pick it up again and refund him.

Delete and block his phone number ?

 

[Zimmerframe]

Oh, yes of course. Thank you. I was thinking of actual hidden cables.

Well, the TCU is apparently getting power. And he has inspected and replaced lid, so I’m at a loss.

It would look like the firmware is the main suspect here though, maybe in a strange coincidence with the adding of the bike as new to another phone at the same time as updating...?

It does seem pretty unusual. There was one report after an update of a bike not turning on at all, not none of them for bikes turning on but there being no assistance. I can't help but think he's turned some setting down or something bizarre and you'll find the problem in 10 minutes. If he's selected "preset" in the settings that normally restores all the assistance settings to default though.

Does walk mode work ?

 

[thbo]

Delete and block his phone number

I’ve been in his situation before and feel for him standing out in the woods with an expensive but dead new-to-him emtb. And I can’t see that I couldn’t fix this somehow. Even though he says he has tried everything I’ve told him too there might be misunderstandings. So I guess I’ll be driving a lot today...

 

[KennyB]

I had similar issues after updating OTA, including loss of power but TCU showed no error messages. LBS discussed it with Specialized who looked at remote diagnosis, saw no errors bit also saw no updates to 7.4.2. They advised updating at the LBS. This was done and it's better

 

[thbo]

It does seem pretty unusual. There was one report after an update of a bike not turning on at all, not none of them for bikes turning on but there being no assistance. I can't help but think he's turned some setting down or something bizarre and you'll find the problem in 10 minutes. If he's selected "preset" in the settings that normally restores all the assistance settings to default though.

Does walk mode work ?

No it does not apparently. That was enlightening. So not only the tuning settings gone wrong.

EDIT: no, the walk-mode works immeditaly after turning on, but if trying to ride neither support or walk-mode works anymore.

I had similar issues after updating OTA, including loss of power but TCU showed no error messages. LBS discussed it with Specialized who looked at remote diagnosis, saw no errors bit also saw no updates to 7.4.2. They advised updating at the LBS. This was done and it's better

I’ll ask him to do the Advanced Diagnosis and will call my LBS tomorrow. And then maybe get the bike and do the update again by cable at LBS if it shows not updated then..

EDIT: I can provide you with the serial number if you’d like to take a look, [mention]Specialized Rider Care [/mention] ?

 

[congerball]

Not an issue for me but I’ve noticed that my max motor power is peaking at approximately 715w (max 717w) since I had the 7.4.2 update and new motor.

On 7.3.6 it was peaking at approximately 750w (max I could find was 754w)

These figures are from my Blevo stats, I started using Blevo back in September.
When I first got my bike in July 19’ I used Mission Control...I can’t remember 100% but I’m sure I saw it peaking even higher?

Anyway if a reduction in these spikes prolongs the life of my motor then that’s fine with me.
The power delivery feels much smoother (and it’s quieter but that could be the new motor)

....or I’m just taking bollocks...???

? ? COYS ?

 

[Zimmerframe]

Not an issue for me but I’ve noticed that my max motor power is peaking at approximately 715w (max 717w) since I had the 7.4.2 update and new motor.

On 7.3.6 it was peaking at approximately 750w (max I could find was 754w)

These figures are from my Blevo stats, I started using Blevo back in September.
When I first got my bike in July 19’ I used Mission Control...I can’t remember 100% but I’m sure I saw it peaking even higher?

Anyway if a reduction in these spikes prolongs the life of my motor then that’s fine with me.
The power delivery feels much smoother (and it’s quieter but that could be the new motor)

....or I’m just taking bollocks...???

? ? COYS ?

Probably perfect bollox !

I think the cells could be charged to a max of 4.2v - so 42v for the pack at a max - which could give you a theoretical of 840w !

Except the battery wouldn't last many re-charges, so they probably set a fully charged limit of 3.8v or 3.9v - if it was 3.8v then you'd max out at 760w in perfect conditions.

As the battery ages, the maximum charge it can hold will reduce, so your cells have probably have slowly dropped to a limit of 3.6v over time ( over an average of the all the cells - depending how the BMS works). It could also be that a battery firmware update has limited the maximum charge amount to a lower voltage to extend the battery life - the lower amount you charge it to it's maximum, the longer the battery will last - so you don't have to run off and pay £1100 for a new one every 2 years.

I think Rob's new gen3 was showing 728w, so that would suggest that there's a possible limit of about 3.6-3.7v. It will also vary considerably on the battery temperature - if you keep the battery outside and it's cold when you set off, you'll get really crap performance from it and reduce it's life span at the same time.

So yes, probably the finest bollox you've spoken all year !

 

[congerball]

Battery fully charged is 491wh....so lost a bit ?
Bike is always stored inside the house...however most of my recent rides have been ‘in the cold’....looking back in Blevo the higher motor output coincided with warmer conditions ?‍ More bollocks ??

 

[Zimmerframe]

Battery fully charged is 491wh....so lost a bit ?
Bike is always stored inside the house...however most of my recent rides have been ‘in the cold’....looking back in Blevo the higher motor output coincided with warmer conditions ?‍ More bollocks ??

My god man, you're on a roll today with Hot Bollox !!! That would make sense.

This is what's frustrating when people just say ... "it's crap" .. The Spesh bikes, unlike all the others, let you actually see how much power you're using with Mission Control, Blevo, eGenesis .. Yet rather than actually looking or providing some information so you can help them work out what their problem actually is ... they'd rather just say "it's crap" 17 times ...

 

[TLSP]

Probably perfect bollox !

I think the cells could be charged to a max of 4.2v - so 42v for the pack at a max - which could give you a theoretical of 840w !

Peak power of the battery is not calculated like that. Cells can be 1C, 2C, 3C.....10C. deppending on the model. that means they can give X times (4c is 4 times) its current constantly.

A 4C cell if it is 2500mA can supply 10A (but will last 15 minutes), that means that this 500Wh battery can supply 2000w if needed.

 

[TLSP]

About the last update complainings, just say that I updated before reading about it and I went to ride expecting the bike will be more powerfull and dynamic not thinking will loose power, all the opposite but after being dissapointed started to look for if it was just my bike or other people had same problem.

My oppinion is also that if you but a top bike to ride fast and have the best performance, it is suposed it is designed for that and dont need to reduce its features to keep it safe and fault free.

 

[thbo]

Peak power of the battery is not calculated like that. Cells can be 1C, 2C, 3C.....10C. deppending on the model. that means they can give X times (4c is 4 times) its current constantly.

A 4C cell if it is 2500mA can supply 10A (but will last 15 minutes), that means that this 500Wh battery can supply 2000w if needed.

Interesting. So my seen spikes in the consumption thread could actually really have been only the battery?

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I still think 1800 watts reported consumption on such a slack ride has to be motor+rider though.

EDIT: Sorry, to clarify, the other linked consumption thread is for my other Rocky Mountain bike, but the battery is more or less the same size. Anyway, sorry for hijacking, this is for firmware issues for the Levo.

 

[Zimmerframe]

Peak power of the battery is not calculated like that. Cells can be 1C, 2C, 3C.....10C. deppending on the model. that means they can give X times (4c is 4 times) its current constantly.

A 4C cell if it is 2500mA can supply 10A (but will last 15 minutes), that means that this 500Wh battery can supply 2000w if needed.

Correct. We've already had this discussion in another thread. In this instance you're limited to 20 amps max draw. So at 36v you have a maximum of 720w.

 

[Zimmerframe]

About the last update complainings, just say that I updated before reading about it and I went to ride expecting the bike will be more powerfull and dynamic not thinking will loose power, all the opposite but after being dissapointed started to look for if it was just my bike or other people had same problem.

My oppinion is also that if you but a top bike to ride fast and have the best performance, it is suposed it is designed for that and dont need to reduce its features to keep it safe and fault free.

And again, you fit the profile of the endless complainers. It's all about how you think it is, yet none of the endless complainers are willing to actually submit any evidence of how it really is - some facts, prints, blevo/MC stats. We just are supposed to take it all on your word, when you might just have a faulty cell in your battery which is reducing performance or you left your bike outside all night in -4 or you drank 24 bottles of beer the night before and have a raging hangover.

Anyway, I'm out. This is pointless.

 

[TLSP]

And again, you fit the profile of the endless complainers. It's all about how you think it is, yet none of the endless complainers are willing to actually submit any evidence of how it really is - some facts, prints, blevo/MC stats. We just are supposed to take it all on your word, when you might just have a faulty cell in your battery which is reducing performance or you left your bike outside all night in -4 or you drank 24 bottles of beer the night before and have a raging hangover.

Anyway, I'm out. This is pointless.

If endless complainers of anything, that means somethings happens even you try say it isnt (not sure why and even more if you have not tested any of those updates as I undestood in other messages)

1. I dont have tools to measure it. Just the experience of riding the bike in the same paths and areas 4 days a week.
2. My battery is new, replaced under warranty, test made in same conditions than day before without the update.
3. Bike is in the garage, temperature here even outdoors is always above 0 and I dont like beer.

I dont have any proffit exposing my oppinion and experience, just the global cooperation and help.

 

[Zimmerframe]

I am just unhappy that the 7.4.2 update appears to have changed the Turbo mode to less power and it was that raw power that attracted me to this bike over other brands.

So you can summarise with no further evidence as "less power" and a will to do nothing about it, but I can't summarise your and the other replies as "it's crap" rather than re-quoting all the "feelings" ..

 

[Zimmerframe]

If endless complainers

Endless complainers - not because there is an endless supply - but because you keep endlessly complaining - about the same thing - repeatedly ! That's ENDLESSLY COMPLAINING !

1. I dont have tools to measure it. Just the experience of riding the bike in the same paths and areas 4 days a week.

???????? You don't own a telephone ? Or can't at least borrow one so you can run mission control and monitor your ride and see how much power the bike is using and all the other figures there to help you determine what might be going on ? Or use Blevo ? or eGenesis.

All of these have been mentioned..

My point is that the people who keep repeating their same issue - equally keep avoiding doing anything about it.

Temperature above 0 is not "warm" or "room temperature". If your battery is 1c it will not perform anywhere near as well as it would at 20c. It will hold it's charge for longer, but it won't efficiently supply power.

How can you not like beer ! that's outrageous !

If you run up Mission Control. Turn on the bike. Let it connect then select ride, you have several "tiles" showing you statistics. IF you press and hold these tiles a drop down appears and you can change what you want them to show.

 

[Zimmerframe]

If you record the whole ride in Mission Control you can then export that file- email it to yourself or something off the phone, assuming you then have access to a windows PC, you can download a freeware app called Golden Cheetah :

GoldenCheetah

www.goldencheetah.org

I've not used it for ages and this is the only shot I can find from a Kenevo ride last year. But basically you can analyse all the data from the ride and it helps you find out where or why problems might be occurring.

 

[Eduardoramundo]

Levo 2020
Motor Aug 2020
7.4.2

Update is good and much more power at lower battery % i.e. under 20%ish

 

[thbo]

No it does not apparently. That was enlightening. So not only the tuning settings gone wrong.

EDIT: no, the walk-mode works immeditaly after turning on, but if trying to ride neither support or walk-mode works anymore.



I’ll ask him to do the Advanced Diagnosis and will call my LBS tomorrow. And then maybe get the bike and do the update again by cable at LBS if it shows not updated then..

EDIT: I can provide you with the serial number if you’d like to take a look, [mention]Specialized Rider Care [/mention] ?

An update on the failed OTA motor update to 7.4.2, which turned motor unresponsive.

LBS has taken a look at uploaded advanced diagnostics and conferred with Specialized which recommended “forced” update by cable at LBS. It looks like very few others have experienced this, so don’t know whether it’s a seldom edge case or if there’s another problem present too. Will find out at LBS some day soon.

 

[Ben Turbo]

@Zimmerframe

From me is not just bashing/complaining, but i am not happy now with the power it's giving.

If i log the data with Blevo or MC, what does is tell me if i have no data from 7.4.1?

I have 2 friends with the same Turbo Levo, they are on older FW (7.3.6) and when we switch from Eco/Trail to Turbo my bike is not giving the boost/punch anymore with 7.4.2. On 7.4.1 is was perfect.

We switched bikes and we all feel the same.

It is giving 725w max, when i bought the bike it was 700 max, afther the 7.3.6 update is was 750 max. but on all the FW except 7.4.2 it was me only faster. Now it's not the same bike.

Here you say

It's pretty unusual for any item to offer the ability to offer a firmware downgrade. By it's very nature, a firmware update fixes problems and software errors which were previously not identified. They invariably improve performance in one way or another, be that power, efficiency, smoothness, longevity. To enable you to go back is to re-introduce known problems, so logically, would invalidate a warranty ?

Mission Control - RELEASE OF OVER THE AIR UPDATES FOR LEVO / KENEVO GEN 2 BIKES

@Specialized Rider Care : Please pass along that a bunch of us want the ability to select which firmware to load. This means updating to the latest as well as reverting to an earlier version. It's pretty unusual for any item to offer the ability to offer a firmware downgrade. By it's very...

www.emtbforums.com

But for me it's daily work to upgrade and downgrade of install Custom FW on printers, we now have a problem with one customer who is experiencing problems with the latest FW and a downgrade did solve it.

So what data do you/Specialized need, i am willing to log it.

 

[Zimmerframe]

From me is not just bashing/complaining, but i am not happy now with the power it's giving.

Hey Ben!

Maar je hebt geen heuvels Sorry, my neighbours are Dutch !

Here you say

I'm not saying that every firmware update is perfect, I'm sure we've all bricked something in our lives installing an under tested firmware !

So, 7.4.2 was to introduce Voltage Compensation onto the 2.1's in order to improve the power available as the battery flattens/voltage drops - when you'd normally have less power available. As far as we know there were no other changes.

I'm guessing you notice you have more power now as the battery is lower ? <20% for example ? When it would previously be running considerably less watts as the voltage dropped and would previously have felt sluggish ?? Or not ? If not, then is there another issue on your bike ???

In RPNZ's case for example, if there's a hill he saying he can't get up now - there's no way he could have got up it before once his battery was low and his peak watts would have dropped off with voltage drop, where as now he should be able to get up at any state of charge - in theory ..

I guess all the new 2.2 motors will be running this firmware from scratch as it makes sense to have voltage compensation, if you can implement it, so you have more consistent power delivery through the whole ride. Rob's photo showed a peak of 728w on the s-works Gen3 (he thought it felt perkier than his previous Levo) which fits with congerballs figures and your figures - but also more or less what you'd expect from a 36v pack with a max draw of 20amps at max voltage.

 

[Ben Turbo]

Hey Ben!

Maar je hebt geen heuvels Sorry, my neighbours are Dutch !


I'm not saying that every firmware update is perfect, I'm sure we've all bricked something in our lives installing an under tested firmware !

So, 7.4.2 was to introduce Voltage Compensation onto the 2.1's in order to improve the power available as the battery flattens/voltage drops - when you'd normally have less power available. As far as we know there were no other changes.

I'm guessing you notice you have more power now as the battery is lower ? <20% for example ? When it would previously be running considerably less watts as the voltage dropped and would previously have felt sluggish ?? Or not ? If not, then is there another issue on your bike ???

In RPNZ's case for example, if there's a hill he saying he can't get up now - there's no way he could have got up it before once his battery was low and his peak watts would have dropped off with voltage drop, where as now he should be able to get up at any state of charge - in theory ..

I guess all the new 2.2 motors will be running this firmware from scratch as it makes sense to have voltage compensation, if you can implement it, so you have more consistent power delivery through the whole ride. Rob's photo showed a peak of 728w on the s-works Gen3 (he thought it felt perkier than his previous Levo) which fits with congerballs figures and your figures - but also more or less what you'd expect from a 36v pack with a max draw of 20amps at max voltage.

Hoi Zimmerframe, de groeten terug aan de buren maar bij de klim in Schoorl is de Turbo toch wel fijn ;-)

Yes, there is "more" power under 15%, with previous FW <15% was Eco 3.0 anchor ;-) So that is a good thing.

And i can still climb the Dutch mountain ;-) (2 climbs tested in Noordwijkerhout because that is where i ride the most) but you can feel that the extra punch is gone.

 

[silverstone]

This is all way to complicated...

It is true, the bike has less power as it had with 7.4.1
That is fact!
It is due to the fact, that there is voltage compensation integrated in 7.4.2
It was also comunicated that way in the beta testers groupe...

So apple would say it is a FEATURE not a BUG


The only thing that needs to change to make everybody happy, is a switch to choose if you want the new FEATURE turned ON or OFF.

and thats the end of the story...

 

[Zimmerframe]

Hoi Zimmerframe, de groeten terug aan de buren maar bij de klim in Schoorl is de Turbo toch wel fijn ;-)

Yes, there is "more" power under 15%, with previous FW <15% was Eco 3.0 anchor ;-) So that is a good thing.

And i can still climb the Dutch mountain ;-) (2 climbs tested in Noordwijkerhout because that is where i ride the most) but you can feel that the extra punch is gone.

Hebben ze daar heuvels gemaakt van alle oude klompen?

Thanks for also providing some numbers.

OK .. one positive side to it that you feel the heavy feeling at low charge/voltage has gone.

So, on paper - or the numbers, you're still in theory pulling more or less the same watts you'd expect, but it feels like it has less punch. Is this just at the start or through the whole ride ?

If, as @silverstone says this was communicated to beta testers, maybe the peak draw when fully charged for the first few % has been rounded off so you don't end up with less range due to it upping the available power/amps when the battery/voltage is low. I guess you can't magic the power from thin air.

If this is the case then I guess we need to ask ourselves if we want more "DRAG STRIP" performance at the very start of a ride, but a bike which heavily lacks performance at the end of a ride or if we want much more consistent and usable power for the whole ride ?

I guess for a lot of people the first few % of battery use is just getting to the trail or warming up/plodding your way up the first climb.

The could re-introduce it as "Ludicrous mode" Tesla style .. Or Turbo PLUS !

I wonder if the change also helps extend battery longevity - ie, an improvement in battery health over a longer period of time - so you'd also have a higher powered bike for longer if the battery health doesn't drop off ?

 

[thbo]

The voltage compensation is obviously as it should have been from the start. You should get the same expected power no matter what battery level you are at (except actual emergency mode at a very low level). That customers over a long time have gotten used to slightly more punch at higher battery levels is a pr problem for Specialized though. I don’t know if they will be willing to turn it into a toggle in the app.

It’s somewhat similar to the insane millisecond spikes in drawn power which were removed in the firmware last summer. Also not as it should have been for a long time. But I can only assume Specialized’s intent is that all this leads to longer lasting motors and batteries.