ICR Headsets for the SZZS-specific CEF50 build

[92se-r]

I think i am having a front end clunk from a bad tolerance cup/top cap. My bearing seems to have some slop in it. I got a new zs56 cane creek headset but will need to pop out the existing cups, which seem to have some glue residue on them. Did you guys have issues popping out the original cups? Were they really glued in?

 

[TCFlowClyde]

I think i am having a front end clunk from a bad tolerance cup/top cap. My bearing seems to have some slop in it. I got a new zs56 cane creek headset but will need to pop out the existing cups, which seem to have some glue residue on them. Did you guys have issues popping out the original cups? Were they really glued in?

If for CEF50. My cups were not glued in, they came separate in a bag as part of the headset assembly. But maybe SZZS decided to change the later frames.

Makes sense to remove OEM, Cane Creek has higher precision specs and should lock in with the CC bearing cup perfectly to match hopefully.

Also, I ditched the OEM 66 for an Acros lower as an upgrade. A few peeps early on were having issues with OEM crown race/cup compatibility which are junk quality typically on many of the Chiner frames.

 

[92se-r]

@tcflowdo you happen to have a measurement for the bearing thickness? All mine are measuring 8mm thick but all the enduro bearings out there list 7mm thick. My headset from szzs is a non internal route one and the top bearing is a 52mmx40mm bearing which seems to be a standard size except for the thickness. Bottom measures out to 62mmx50mm.

 

[TCFlowClyde]

I do use the Enduro brand bearings for my upper 52/42, (the hellbender was the wrong width and returned it), but I didn't measure thickness before install. Honestly, the IRC is a pain to disassemble to measure it.

 

[TCFlowClyde]

I think i am having a front end clunk from a bad tolerance cup/top cap. My bearing seems to have some slop in it. I got a new zs56 cane creek headset but will need to pop out the existing cups, which seem to have some glue residue on them. Did you guys have issues popping out the original cups? Were they really glued in?

Hope the build is progressing well. Did you get the CC cups in and fit the ZS56 upper headset?

Thinking about converting to frame side ports. I'm having a grinding issue with the new upgrades SZZS headset leaving metallic dust on my headtube creating tiny slack now. Both grinding down black paint on both bearing lip (red arrow) and top cap (green arrow).

Linda says I've got all 4 upper headset assembly parts. But all worked on the original headset with no issues.

I'd switch back, but since it tears up the cables too fast, not worth it. The Nukeproof one has a plastic cable guide top cap...too brittle over time in the AZ desert heat. So back to square one.

So , looks side ports with traditional CC ZS56 and definitely swap out the cups like I did with the lower headset Acros66 bearing cup.

Do you mind just taking a pic of your side frame ports to get an idea of where I should drill? Thanks in advance.

 

[TCFlowClyde]

Non IRC headset option...good for frame side ports cable routing (traditional). For those thinking about a full conversion, there's a new (and rare) ZS56 top headset assembly called Woodman out of Taiwan.

WOOdman TB TZS

Woodman TB TZS is compatible with most of the upper/top semi-integrated headsets on the market.

woodmancomponents.com

 

[mike_kelly]

Just to be clear that is not an ICR headset, fine for external routing. Did your source on Ebay have more of the TOkens, Tom?

 

[TCFlowClyde]

Just to be clear that is not an ICR headset, fine for external routing. Did your source on Ebay have more of the TOkens, Tom?

Yes. Both Nukeproof and Token same guy.

Token S-Box TK156 ZS56 Integrated Internal Cable Upper Headset 28.6 1-1/8th NEW | eBay

Token TK156 S-Box Upper Headset. Alloy cup, anodised in black. 4 cable ports for F+R gears and F+R brake. (one port is supplied with a Di2 cable bung as pictured).

www.ebay.com

 

[TCFlowClyde]

Yes. Both Nukeproof and Token same guy.

Token S-Box TK156 ZS56 Integrated Internal Cable Upper Headset 28.6 1-1/8th NEW | eBay

Token TK156 S-Box Upper Headset. Alloy cup, anodised in black. 4 cable ports for F+R gears and F+R brake. (one port is supplied with a Di2 cable bung as pictured).

www.ebay.com

View attachment 136380

Expansion on these particular ICR headsets. Mr. BirdBird's Bicycle Bizaar (Mr. BBBB'S) is an old school UK mechanic. He appears very honest, says that while the Tokens/NP headset cable guide caps are hardened plastic, they're durable and never seen one broken. Mike Kelly says so far so good too. Solid references for sure! Plus, Nukeproof is well bomb-proof as is the namesake...strong! BUT ICR Is still a fresh concept for E-mtbs, so durability I'm worried about in 3-5 years...this is a fair point!

One thing I liked about the SZZS upgrade cap was that it is thicker aluminum. Precision I worry about.

BUT my projected misgivings: Here in the AZ desert summers eat plastic, so I'm inherently skeptical. Also, I have longer travel and heavier 38 fork that does see small jumps and drops frequently, plus I'm a heavy load wanting "Big boy-enduro durability". All this to say, I trust Cane Creek more. They don't make ICR headsets and feel that they're too complex for non-racers, "The one percent who race and have pro mechanics will benefit the most, if any performance benefit exists...looks clean but they're complicated headsets and may challenge the problem of friction points" paraphrasing the CC support tech. But, easier to say since the haven't put their expertise toward the mtb ICR upper headset assembly yet.

It looks like more friction is prone for the large, open-center port (as I've demonstrated) rather than the neatly separated ports of Token/NP and sealed individually with rubber grommet to prevent dust and water ingress. The ZSSZ upgrade doesn't seem to have dedicated bearing cover plate of seal to prevent metal grinding.


Both the Token/NP and SZZS which is modeled after them is metal, but I get metal grinding of lower metal cap against the upper headset bearing cup lip...it left a significant ring of Aluminum dust/flakes (that I should've taken a pic of...sorry). It could be that they apply a shit load of force with longer travel and heavier fork create compaction/crush forces than the tolerance of these 3rd party upper assemblies.

So, I'm creating a separate thread for those willing the convert their ICR headset *wire/hose/cable" setup back to the conventional frame internal guided cables instead.

Again, I just want a trusted and thoroughly vetted headset like Cane Creek and now Hope Tech's new ZS56/28.6....i just ordered a purple one today for $60. (Just follow the other thread link).

 

[TCFlowClyde]

Ok here's the link to thread for the non-ICR top headsets and frame port conversion info, and all of ZS56/28.6 top headsets and internal.cable guides, and my install process.

Thread 'Non-ICR headset, internal frame cable guide conversion for the CEF 50. Non-ICR headset, internal frame cable guide conversion for the CEF50

 

[92se-r]

Done a few rides now. I dont have confidence in the bike due to the clunking/rattling. I think i have the headset play sorted out with shims to keep the cup and top cap interference from preventing proper preload. I think the bearing is toast though. I still have some noise which i am suspecting is internal cable routing rattling. This is why i have held off from doing a big post in the main thread.

 

[TCFlowClyde]

Done a few rides now. I dont have confidence in the bike due to the clunking/rattling. I think i have the headset play sorted out with shims to keep the cup and top cap interference from preventing proper preload. I think the bearing is toast though. I still have some noise which i am suspecting is internal cable routing rattling. This is why i have held off from doing a big post in the main thread.
View attachment 136544

Hmmm...And you're using the Cane Creek 40 ZS56/28.6 upper headset assembly throughout?

What are you using for the lower assembly again?

Cable rattling too huh? I ran my cables atop of my battery which has natural channels for 720Wh after I loosened it at the 4 downtube hex bolts and then tightened them back down to lock 'em in. But then again I was using the ICR SZZS upper headset which tightens cable lockdown further....so no noise.

Others have been using foam tubing cable liners. If you think that might help? Depending on how you do to solve it, I assume that the traditional frame internal cable routing may inherently create some noise.

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a.aliexpress.com

 

[92se-r]

I hadnt swapped out headset yet. Yeah the foam is going in next. Im routed under battery, didnt want to accidentally pinch cables etc

 

[TCFlowClyde]

Update for ZS66/40 lower headset.
1. Acros ZS66/40 (Germany). Great stuff I have it $60.

zs66 headset lower part

Semi-integrated headset (zs) for frames with 66mm head tube at the bottom. In our zs66-headset-bottom-part, the combination of angular contact ball bearings and well thought-out sealings ensure durability with minimum maintenance and...

acros-components.com

2. Nukeproof ZS66/40 lower headset.

Nukeproof Neutron ZS66 E Bike Bottom Headset - ZS66 1.8" Steerer

FEATURES: ZS66 1.1/8th and 1.8" options Alloy Construction Alloy Bump Stop Crown Race Steel Cartridge Bearing Sealed against water ingress

planetcyclery.com

3. Funn ZS66/40 (ANGULAR)
Funn Descend Lower Headset, Angular Contact Bearing Lower Headset, Alloy Bike Headset for Mountain Bike, BMX Bike, Road Bike and Gravel Bike Amazon.com

4. Transition Bikes ZS66/46 so requires a new super 1.8" to 28.6 steerer tube.

Transition Bikes

Transition Bikes is a rider owned and operated mountain bike manufacturer from Bellingham Washington

www.transitionbikes.com

5. Synchros ZS66/46...full headset but ZS66/28.6-ZS66/46.

Syncros ZS66/28.6|ZS66/46 Headset

- Compatible with Patron MY2022 - Alloy cups - Block lock

www.hangar15bicycles.com

6. Hope Tech ZS66/40...None

7. Woodman ZS66/40...None.

8. Works ZS66/40...None.

 

[mike_kelly]

JUst a note for clarity... The CEF50 uses a 66mm lower race but the LCS930 does not use that size.

 

[TCFlowClyde]

JUst a note for clarity... The CEF50 uses a 66mm lower race but the LCS930 does not use that size.

What size do they use ZS56/40?

 

[TCFlowClyde]

What size do they use ZS56/40?

I went through the pages on this thread, looks like all are CEF50 owners I think. I wonder if can change the name of the thread title to just CEF50 ICR headsets or is that moderator thing?

 

[TCFlowClyde]

I went through the pages on this thread, looks all are CEF50 owners I think. I wonder if can the name of the thread title to just CEF50 ICR headsets or is that moderator thing?

I found the editor drop down for the title. I changed it to just CEF50 now!

 

[mike_kelly]

I have never figured out what the headset sizes are for the lCS930.

 

[TCFlowClyde]

I have never figured out what the headset sizes are for the lCS930.

Yeah, I got this one and my conversion thread cleaned up now...so hopefully no confusion.

 

[Freda]

What size do they use ZS56/28.6?

LCE930 uses IS52 both in upper and lower. No cups, bearing straight into carbon frame.

 

[mike_kelly]

I'll update the spec page, thanks.

 

[TCFlowClyde]

Done a few rides now. I dont have confidence in the bike due to the clunking/rattling. I think i have the headset play sorted out with shims to keep the cup and top cap interference from preventing proper preload. I think the bearing is toast though. I still have some noise which i am suspecting is internal cable routing rattling. This is why i have held off from doing a big post in the main thread.
View attachment 136544

Any positive progress yet?

 

[92se-r]

Any positive progress yet?

Waiting on a new top bearing to arrive. Also, im going to put foam on the internal cable housing. Big impacts make a big clunking noise that make me super wary of bike.

 

[Smitty]

Hey everyone, I'm new to posting but have read everything on here about the cef50. You guys made me feel comfortable with my decision.

I've run into a snag where I'm not familiar with this style headset. Is the bearing pressed into the cup or is the cup the only thing pressed in? I think mine may be to far out of spec.

Thanks in advance

 

[92se-r]

Yes the bearing just sits in cup

 

[Smitty]

Yes the bearing just sits in cup

Thanks for the response. In that case were you able to get your cup out with the glue on it? Mine has that as well.

 

[92se-r]

Thanks for the response. In that case were you able to get your cup out with the glue on it? Mine has that as well.

Havent tried yet.

 

[mike_kelly]

The cup should not need to be glued in. The ZS zero stack cup presses in like any other pressed in cup. Then the bearing just drops in. The only reason that the cup might be glued in is that the headtube is not properly round etc.
I would inquire to szzs as to why it was glued in and what kind of glue was used rather than ripping up the headtube trying to get it out

 

[92se-r]

The cup should not need to be glued in. The ZS zero stack cup presses in like any other pressed in cup. Then the bearing just drops in. The only reason that the cup might be glued in is that the headtube is not properly round etc.
I would inquire to szzs as to why it was glued in and what kind of glue was used rather than ripping up the headtube trying to get it out

I think their tolerances might not be great for a press fit and they make up for the air gaps with bearing retainer 603, which jean confirmed is what they use.