GOBAO ECVT EMTB Mid-Drive Motor

[sethimus]

The E2 motor showcased last year (still not released) looks to be quite similar the newer motors:

i see a 3-4cm low hanging problem with this solution. NEXT

 

[sethimus]

Maybe a handlebar button control

awesome, even more buttons on the handlebar. we clearly don't have enough of them already

 

[sethimus]

How come no performance motorsports used eCVT? Not MotoGP, not MX racing, not auto racing in any form, etc.

I still suspect that this product and others like it are going to be most appropriate for cargo bikes and the like, but I hope I'm wrong.

yes, we all saw the forbidden and mondraker cargo bike prototypes. clearly it's intended use. srsly, are you for real? do you have eyes and are you able to use them? are you so full of it so you need to throw shade on everything not being a bosch motor because that's what you chose now?

 

[Ndanger]

Goodbye derailleur. Thanks for all the indexing…

We now need to find a name for the new “Temu Derailleur” ... Drum roll... Introducing the "Enrailleur" - from enrail ("to put on the rail"), implying it keeps the belt on track.

 

[sethimus]

Goodbye derailleur. Thanks for all the indexing…

We now need to find a name for the new “Temu Derailleur” ... Drum roll... Introducing the "Enrailleur" - from enrail ("to put on the rail"), implying it keeps the belt on track.


View attachment 188939

do these look like cargo bikes to you, @Suns_PSD?

 

[Suns_PSD]

yes, we all saw the forbidden and mondraker cargo bike prototypes. clearly it's intended use. srsly, are you for real? do you have eyes and are you able to use them? are you so full of it so you need to throw shade on everything not being a bosch motor because that's what you chose now?

do these look like cargo bikes to you, @Suns_PSD?

First of all, it's a guess, just like all of us are guessing, because it's an enthusiasts forum, and that's what we do. So calm down.

Secondly, and importantly: I'm just more committed to 'bicycling' being a distinct sport from 'e-motorcycles'. Avinox has already chosen to blow the lid off of the Class 1 bicycling limits imposed by the industry. Now we are going to have AI controlled cadence, auto shifting, motor gearbox units. Will they be faster and perform better? Yah, probably. But we are getting pretty far away from the manual experience of riding a bicycle at that point with some 'climbing assistance'. Yah know, pedaling, flipping the thing over to adjust the manual parts, etc. It's just all a bit much to look in the mirror without smirking and claim to be 'riding a bicycle'.

You can't claim a Class 2+ e-bike is the 'best' Class 1 e-bike no more than a CRF450F can claim to be the best 250F.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: why do these have cranks at all? At this point it's just a bit of a silly way to pretend to be powering the thing. Think of the reduction in complexity, parts & weight if they simply had an electric motor and a throttle? The cranks are an inelegant throttle at best, or just decoration at worst. Like an EV car with a manual shift lever and clutch pedal that in reality does nothing at all besides stroke the ego of the driver. How long until they offer a drop in replacement motor that is just an electric motor with footpegs and a throttle that drops 2 kgs? That actually makes sense.

 

[sethimus]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: why do these have cranks at all? At this point it's just a bit of a silly way to pretend to be powering the thing. Think of the reduction in complexity, parts & weight if they simply had an electric motor and a throttle? The cranks are an inelegant throttle at best, or just decoration at worst. Like an EV car with a manual shift lever and clutch pedal that in reality does nothing at all besides stroke the ego of the driver. How long until they offer a drop in replacement motor that is just an electric motor with footpegs and a throttle that drops 2 kgs? That actually makes sense.

because the cranks allow me to ride here:

 

[Diby2000]

Secondly, and importantly: I'm just more committed to 'bicycling' being a distinct sport from 'e-motorcycles'. Avinox has already chosen to blow the lid off of the Class 1 bicycling limits imposed by the industry. Now we are going to have AI controlled cadence, auto shifting, motor gearbox units. Will they be faster and perform better? Yah, probably. But we are getting pretty far away from the manual experience of riding a bicycle at that point with some 'climbing assistance'. Yah know, pedaling, flipping the thing over to adjust the manual parts, etc. It's just all a bit much to look in the mirror without smirking and claim to be 'riding a bicycle'.

You can't claim a Class 2+ e-bike is the 'best' Class 1 e-bike no more than a CRF450F can claim to be the best 250F.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: why do these have cranks at all? At this point it's just a bit of a silly way to pretend to be powering the thing. Think of the reduction in complexity, parts & weight if they simply had an electric motor and a throttle? The cranks are an inelegant throttle at best, or just decoration at worst. Like an EV car with a manual shift lever and clutch pedal that in reality does nothing at all besides stroke the ego of the driver. How long until they offer a drop in replacement motor that is just an electric motor with footpegs and a throttle that drops 2 kgs? That actually makes sense.

because the cranks allow me to ride here:

While I agree with both arguments here, They can also go both ways.
The same argument can be made about the first bicycles that had 2 wheels that where a similar size (not penny farthing). Or when suspension arrived, or when gears arrived! Its all progress. I admit there could be a line in the sand somewhere, and you are drawing yours here. This is not where everyone is drawing it though.

 

[Ride 2d@y]

Thanks Gobao - I think the ECVT concept (used in hybrid cars like the Prius) is a great idea to eliminate derailleurs. Use muscle power to spin pedals and electric power to assist etc etc etc.

 

[slickrock]

First of all, it's a guess, just like all of us are guessing, because it's an enthusiasts forum, and that's what we do. So calm down.

Secondly, and importantly: I'm just more committed to 'bicycling' being a distinct sport from 'e-motorcycles'. Avinox has already chosen to blow the lid off of the Class 1 bicycling limits imposed by the industry. Now we are going to have AI controlled cadence, auto shifting, motor gearbox units. Will they be faster and perform better? Yah, probably. But we are getting pretty far away from the manual experience of riding a bicycle at that point with some 'climbing assistance'. Yah know, pedaling, flipping the thing over to adjust the manual parts, etc. It's just all a bit much to look in the mirror without smirking and claim to be 'riding a bicycle'.

You can't claim a Class 2+ e-bike is the 'best' Class 1 e-bike no more than a CRF450F can claim to be the best 250F.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: why do these have cranks at all? At this point it's just a bit of a silly way to pretend to be powering the thing. Think of the reduction in complexity, parts & weight if they simply had an electric motor and a throttle? The cranks are an inelegant throttle at best, or just decoration at worst. Like an EV car with a manual shift lever and clutch pedal that in reality does nothing at all besides stroke the ego of the driver. How long until they offer a drop in replacement motor that is just an electric motor with footpegs and a throttle that drops 2 kgs? That actually makes sense.

I've given this a fair amount of thought. IMO, the main distinction between e-motos and EMTBs really comes down to the throttle. It's throttle the disconnects you from power delivery, so in this way motos are similar to cars, unless your Fred Flintstone. With my first ebike (Leve 2nd gen), the motor belt like a straight amplification of my power at the pedals, and fooled my brain into thinking that I just got suddenly stronger. It did not feel foreign, or disconnected, but rather; it felt like an exciting extension of the MTB experience, where you provide the torque and cadence to power your bike along. A throttle would just kill this primary experience that comes with mountain biking. This is why I'm not that opposed to Class 3 systems, since you still have to pedal with cadence and torque to move the bike forward - you are still connected to the bike in a way that makes you more responsible for its power. Class 2 ebikes have throttles, and that to me draws a hard line against such bikes on MTB trails - you might be limited to 20mph, but you can go crazy with torque and power that can contribute to rider irresponsibility.

But then again, what distinguishes cars from motos, as the gap between the two is obviously huge, yet both have throttles and allow you to steer? With motos, your COG, weight and balance directly influences the operation and handling of the vessel and that is totally under your control. I'm teasing out this distinction because with EMTB, this is even more of distinction as you body weight is 3 times that of the bike rather than other way around. I see this as a strong secondary factor of the EMTB experience. Why am I calling this out? Because ECVT does not take this way from the riding experience any more that an e-bike motor can.

But there is a fear that ECVT is taking away the third experience factor: gear selection and control. With gear selection, you are the control system that regulates your own power delivery at the pedal, allowing you to balance torque and cadence for your own optimal delivery where the terrain requires either speed or torque to negotiate. EMTBs with all their power, have made this less critical as riders don't have trade torque for speed as much (the reason why 12 speeds are overkill), and so have a tendency to overtorque and damage their drivetrains. But this is the area where ECVTs have the greatest impact and change the riding experience. You still control the transmission yourself, but now you just have a lot more options. You get to choose the gear steps and ratio intervals in a why you could never customize before. When your just shuttling or fireroading to a destination, you can drop into a bunch any number of auto modes, that maximize efficiency or power delivery by allowing you to set preferences of cadence and torque. Safety systems could be introduced where you can set a max torque thresholds to save your chain or hub (to not depower the motor but rather reduce gear ratio you are in a the moment), not to mention the trails. Gabao even has auto-manual mode, which automatically shifts through the gear steps you configure, so it feels like auto mode in an MGU or vehicle automatic transmission, rather then feeling like a full CVT. So while ECVT can take over control system duties for gear changing, you get to choose just how much you want to relinquish, just like you get to choose how much human power you want to relinquish to a motor.

 

[Diby2000]

I believe you may have touched on my thinking here also @slickrock.
Yes the throttle is a big factor, but I think the weight is playing a huge factor for me. I think the weight of the system vs the weight of the rider, and the influence of the riders position is what makes it fun for me.

 

[Astro66]

But we are getting pretty far away from the manual experience of riding a bicycle at that point with some 'climbing assistance'.

If all you want to do is "Go ride a Bike". Then go ride a bike. No one is stopping you. Not Gobao. Not us. But trying to tell people who want the most advanced EMTB, they shouldn't have it, because you don't feel it's in the spirit of true cycling, is absurd.

If the EMTB complies with pedal-assist regulations. Then it can be ridden anywhere a pedal-assist regulated EMTB is allowed. And there is no suggestion that the new Gobao ECVT won't comply. If you feel the cranks have become a throttle. That's your issue. No regulatory authority is remotely suggesting that cranks are in anyway defined a throttle.

So it's pretty simple. If you don't like the technology. Don't get it. But this continued droning that advances in EMTB technology, suddenly makes EMTBs a motorcycle is not supported by regulatory authorities. And it's their opinion that matters, not yours. Their definition of a Pedal Assisted Bicycle and a Motorcycle is very clear. Read your regulatory authority definitions, if you are unclear.

And lastly. The ECVT works as a fixed speed gearbox, if you turn all the electrics off. Your legs drive the planetary carrier. The planetary gears drive the ring gear. The ring gear drives the chainring. The chainring drives the chain. Then the chain drives your rear wheel. There is no virtual pedalling. You are directly driving the wheels, through gears, from your legs.

When the electrics are working. The electric motors act to add pedal assistance, by adding assistance to the ring gear, and rotate the sun gear, to vary gear ratio. That's it. It's still a mechanical gearbox. The fact you don't understand how it works. Doesn't suddenly make it a motorbike.