Drivetrain question

[dobbyhasfriends]

hi all, this may well be normal cos its my first ebike and I wouldnt know how they usually are but:

I had it on the workstand when I was overhauling the jockey wheels and when I put it all back together I ran the pedals to turn the back wheel and the drivetrain was weird. It was like I could feel every 'pick up' and 'drop off' of the sprocket teeth where they pick up and release each chain link.. I thought I had put the jockey wheels on wrong but they were fine, then, because it was so 'lumpy' feeling I checked the rear hub bearings and they were fine..

I spun the rear wheel up so it was going quickly and then turned the pedals slowly so that they didnt engage the wheel but still turned the drivechain, the feeling was still there, it was really a lot of resistance and certainly nothing ive experienced on a normal bike..

is this normal for an ebike ?

 

[Zimmerframe]

Like this ?? :


Or more subtle ??

That was chain stretch causing premature wear on the front, none standard, aluminium 36t sprocket. When not under load, it was there, but you couldn't tell where it was tight.

 

[dobbyhasfriends]

hmm, I havent even tried that but its possible given the resistance and yes, it does feel like its in the chain/sprockets..

6 weeks old, around 200 miles, standard everything

 

[Zimmerframe]

hmm, I havent even tried that but its possible given the resistance and yes, it does feel like its in the chain/sprockets..

6 weeks old, around 200 miles, standard everything

The standard sprocket is steel I think, so I'd be surprised if it's worn that quickly. Could be worth checking the chain, the standard kenevo one is a kmc which is prone to early stretching. Swapped for an SRAM one and it shifts a lot smoother than it did from new with the kmc.

 

[dobbyhasfriends]

The standard sprocket is steel I think, so I'd be surprised if it's worn that quickly. Could be worth checking the chain, the standard kenevo one is a kmc which is prone to early stretching. Swapped for an SRAM one and it shifts a lot smoother than it did from new with the kmc.

cheers mate, ill check ! I have a Levo 19 so no idea what is fitted OEM.
for the SRAM chain, is there an ebike specific one like KMC have?

 

[Doomanic]

for the SRAM chain, is there an ebike specific one like KMC have?

No. There's no such thing as an ebike specific chain, it's just marketing bollocks.

 

[dobbyhasfriends]

right, had a look at the PC X1 chains on ebay and one review mentions the chain drag in reverse on a Levo, thanks @Zimmerframe ! im gonna grab a chain before the KMC wears everything out

 

[Zimmerframe]

This was my muppet thread about my issue and chain swap ..

Another December Chain thread (for muppets) ... Yawn ... - EMTB Forums

I went for this chain :

SRAM NX PC-1110 11 Speed Powerchain | Chain Reaction Cycles

Seems solid ! and cheap So you can justify changing it more frequently if necessary .. It's 114 links which is correct for a Medium Levo and was correct for a Large Kenevo (1.3)

It might even be cheaper than lubing .. (Actually, I've not lubed it as it seems nicely waxed and I keep hand testing it and the factory wax is still there despite the drownings .. Also didn't want to put my muc off crap on (mainly crap due to inept chain lubrication staff) as I was waiting for my waxy lube (squirt lube) to arrive to try instead from Santa.

 

[Zimmerframe]

No. There's no such thing as an ebike specific chain, it's just marketing bollocks.

He is wise ! And today will be lusting over his new bike ... and maybe getting it dirty ?? and testing that invisiframe ?

Whilst it seems like marketing bollox that some chains are "ebike" specific or rated .. maybe some should be listed as "not e-bike appropriate" ? Like the default Kenevo KMC X11ET seems like a really odd choice and makes you wonder if some buyer at Spesh got a nice holiday somewhere for specifying that chain, when they could have used a better and cheaper sram chain to go with the sram drive train ?

 

[118]

(squirt lube)

Do you recommend doing this single handed, for ease of application, so that you can steady yourself, with the other, or is it best to use both hands..? Asking for a friend, obviously...

 

[Zimmerframe]

Asking for a friend, obviously...

I guess it depends on your flexibilty but ideally tape down the walk mode button, this frees up both hands for a quality extended squirt lube. I think @Gary made a video on how to clean up properly afterwards....

 

[Gary]

Actually, I've not lubed it as it seems nicely waxed and I keep hand testing it and the factory wax is still there despite the drownings

That's grease. and it's only there to stop it corroding whilst in the packaging.
Lube it.
Ps. Squirt won't adhere to an oily (or factory greased) chain.

 

[Zimmerframe]

That's grease. and it's only there to stop it corroding whilst in the packaging.
Lube it.
Ps. Squirt won't adhere to an oily (or factory greased) chain.

That makes sense (the grease) ..

OK, so I gave it a good (cloth clean) .. and just put squirt on .. that might not be enough to adhere ? So it might need a proper de-grease and Squirt ... So that can be today's after ride entertainment !

Thanks for the tips Merry Xmas !

 

[Tricati01]

Hi, when you say you re-checked the jockey wheel installation, did you check for proper chain engagement as many sram jockey wheels are narrow/wide in shape like chain-rings. If the chain is not fitted correctly you do get a weird noise.

 

[Rusty]

right, had a look at the PC X1 chains on ebay and one review mentions the chain drag in reverse on a Levo, thanks @Zimmerframe ! im gonna grab a chain before the KMC wears everything out

Since you don't run it in reverse I would not be too worried. Those KMC e series chains seem to be a little rougher with shifting than some others but they wear quite well.
For example, on my Scott with the SRAM Eagle chain was .5 after 1000km but on my Levo with more torque the KMC X11ET is only .75 at the same distance.

 

[steve_sordy]

..........For example, on my Scott with the SRAM Eagle chain was .5 after 1000km but on my Levo with more torque the KMC X11ET is only .75 at the same distance.

I'd replace that KMC chain now.

 

[Zimmerframe]

I'd replace that KMC chain now.

@Rusty do you mean 0.25 at the same distance ??? At 0.75 my KMC was destroying my ally front chainring.

 

[dobbyhasfriends]

went out on it yesterday.. before I went I had it on the stand and checked everything, made sure it was shifting properly etc and did a quick 10 miles.
it was utter shit during the whole ride, anytime I put any torque through the drivetrain the chain jumps and the motor is over running all the time (it doesn't stop when I stop pedalling).

after nearly 2 months of ownership Im suffering from serious buyers regret from the amount of trouble ive had.

 

[Zimmerframe]

It's them xmas blues ....

Ok, so the motor shouldn't over run. Well, only for 0.1 or 0.2 of a second or something, which is done on purpose. Longer than than and there's a sensor fault in the motor.

I think you said your jockey wheels seized too. I was concerned my problem was something to do with that at the start and looking around, some people had circled the globe three times with no problems and others had done 12 meters and they'd seized .. So I guess something random goes on at the SRAM assembly line ..

You certainly shouldn't get chain jump. Is this with the original chain or a new one ? Again, some people seem to get on ok with the chain and others it prematurely wears/stretches.

But totally agree, when you think (or in your case, actually have) problems, e-bike remorse sets in hard !

Can only suggest getting it back to the shop, get the motor swapped out. I think you went to Berkshire in the end ? They seem to put customer happiness 1st and also have the knowledge and experience to know what's right and wrong and should be able to sort you out properly.

It's a bit of a ball ache. .. but if you sit there getting pi55ed at it you're just going to spiral off into the dark world of e-frustration. Somethings aren't right with it. It's warrantied .. get it sorted and get back out hammering the hell out of it and enjoying it !

 

[dobbyhasfriends]

It's them xmas blues ....

Ok, so the motor shouldn't over run. Well, only for 0.1 or 0.2 of a second or something, which is done on purpose. Longer than than and there's a sensor fault in the motor.

I think you said your jockey wheels seized too. I was concerned my problem was something to do with that at the start and looking around, some people had circled the globe three times with no problems and others had done 12 meters and they'd seized .. So I guess something random goes on at the SRAM assembly line ..

You certainly shouldn't get chain jump. Is this with the original chain or a new one ? Again, some people seem to get on ok with the chain and others it prematurely wears/stretches.

But totally agree, when you think (or in your case, actually have) problems, e-bike remorse sets in hard !

Can only suggest getting it back to the shop, get the motor swapped out. I think you went to Berkshire in the end ? They seem to put customer happiness 1st and also have the knowledge and experience to know what's right and wrong and should be able to sort you out properly.

It's a bit of a ball ache. .. but if you sit there getting pi55ed at it you're just going to spiral off into the dark world of e-frustration. Somethings aren't right with it. It's warrantied .. get it sorted and get back out hammering the hell out of it and enjoying it !

yea mate, it over runs by seconds, it wont stop on its own I have to brake hard or fall off.

chain jump has been since ride one, I have no faith that if I stand up and pedal I wont end up over the bars because thats what happens every time I do and whatever I do to remedy it doesnt work.. it can change faultlessly on the stand but its trash on the trail.. perhaps it just needs a new (another new) cable.

I've bought a new chain, a PC X1 so im hoping that will cure some of the woes.

I have no problem with a bit of fettling but I feel more like I own a classic car than a cutting edge e-mtb.. its been a night/day experience from my old Specialized Enduro which still has its original gear cables even - nothing went wrong with it ever but I dont think I have unrealistic expectations of a 6K bike..

EDIT: I called the shop and spoke to Chris, he gave me a load of stuff to check and said that if there was a problem I could drop it and they would sort whatever issue it is while I waited.. perfect !

 

[Rusty]

@Rusty do you mean 0.25 at the same distance ??? At 0.75 my KMC was destroying my ally front chainring.

Yup - not have me glasses on when posting that.

 

[Zimmerframe]

EDIT: I called the shop and spoke to Chris, he gave me a load of stuff to check and said that if there was a problem I could drop it and they would sort whatever issue it is while I waited.. perfect !

Cool ! Makes the whole thing feel better

chain jump has been since ride one, I have no faith that if I stand up and pedal I wont end up over the bars because thats what happens every time I do and whatever I do to remedy it doesnt work.. it can change faultlessly on the stand but its trash on the trail.. perhaps it just needs a new (another new) cable.

My Kenevo was an absolute dog with gear changes at the start, though fine on a stand. I think the cable can get tensioned through suspension movement and bar movement a tiny amount, not much, but enough to cause problem sometimes. I was lucky, one of the horses decided it was a bike fanatic one day and decided to try to lift the bike into it's paddock, over the fence - using the gear cable.... It's been considerably better ever since...

 

[dobbyhasfriends]

Cool ! Makes the whole thing feel better



My Kenevo was an absolute dog with gear changes at the start, though fine on a stand. I think the cable can get tensioned through suspension movement and bar movement a tiny amount, not much, but enough to cause problem sometimes. I was lucky, one of the horses decided it was a bike fanatic one day and decided to try to lift the bike into it's paddock, over the fence - using the gear cable.... It's been considerably better ever since...

well, I may have solved my grinding chain / shifting issue.

the derailleur isn't moving all the way onto the largest sprocket under its own steam, if I shift and push it by hand the last few mm it goes, otherwise it shifts only halfway from 2nd to 1st and then rolls on/off the larger sprocket constantly.
So I know what the problem is but I dont know how to fix it, the derailleur just needs a stronger spring I guess..

 

[Zimmerframe]

well, I may have solved my grinding chain / shifting issue.

the derailleur isn't moving all the way onto the largest sprocket under its own steam, if I shift and push it by hand the last few mm it goes, otherwise it shifts only halfway from 2nd to 1st and then rolls on/off the larger sprocket constantly.
So I know what the problem is but I dont know how to fix it, the derailleur just needs a stronger spring I guess..

I take it the limit screw isn't holding it back ? A slightly bent hanger might also cause a similar problem.

Have you re indexed it ?

 

[dobbyhasfriends]

I take it the limit screw isn't holding it back ? A slightly bent hanger might also cause a similar problem.

no mate, I can adjust the screw so that the mech moves, and then back it off a tad.
the hanger 'looks' perfect and I havent smashed the bike at all (yet)
yes I re indexed it

 

[Deleted member 7291]

Hey Dobby
Just reading through your post. I have encountered some of what you are talking about. Apart from properly indexing the gears, have you tried adjusting the B screw on the back of the derailleur? You may already know this, but if not it, it moves the derailleur fore and aft, and has a DIRECT bearing on how the gears shift (particularly on to the first gear). There’s plenty of stuff online about it. A poorly adjusted B screw will cause all of the problems you are having. My previous bike and my new 2020Turbo Levo both shifted perfectly on the stand when I first got them and then jumped around on the tracks like you you describe. Once I adjusted the B screw correctly under rider weight the bikes shifted seamlessly.
Btw...did you sort out the problem you had with the rough chain experience after you pulled the jockey wheels off?

 

[dobbyhasfriends]

Hey Dobby
Just reading through your post. I have encountered some of what you are talking about. Apart from properly indexing the gears, have you tried adjusting the B screw on the back of the derailleur? You may already know this, but if not it, it moves the derailleur fore and aft, and has a DIRECT bearing on how the gears shift (particularly on to the first gear). There’s plenty of stuff online about it. A poorly adjusted B screw will cause all of the problems you are having. My previous bike and my new 2020Turbo Levo both shifted perfectly on the stand when I first got them and then jumped around on the tracks like you you describe. Once I adjusted the B screw correctly under rider weight the bikes shifted seamlessly.
Btw...did you sort out the problem you had with the rough chain experience after you pulled the jockey wheels off?

Hi Robb, thanks for taking the time to suffer that lot !
yes I have adjusted the B screw, I have tried it in the manufacturers recommended position but thats not the sweet spot. I have tried getting the mech to the point where is wont change from 2nd to 1st and then adding enough room for it to shift and ive tried it out near the other extreme.. nothing seems to work but you are right, it does make a difference..

how did you adjust that b screw ? just sit on the bike and eyeball it?

 

[Deleted member 7291]

Easier with someone to do it while you sit on the bike, but if doing by yourself... I set the sag ring under full rider weight then let the air out of the shock until the the suspension was sitting on the sag ring and then mucked around with the SRAM template adjusting the screw and then pumped the shock back up.
Dobby in my experience adjusting rear mechs is a dark art. you could always try riding up and down the street adjusting the b screw incrementally. I’ve certainly found the sweet spot that way rather than mucking around with the first suggestion.

 

[dobbyhasfriends]

Easier with someone to do it while you sit on the bike, but if doing by yourself... I set the sag ring under full rider weight then let the air out of the shock until the the suspension was sitting on the sag ring and then mucked around with the SRAM template adjusting the screw and then pumped the shock back up.
Dobby in my experience adjusting rear mechs is a dark art. you could always try riding up and down the street adjusting the b screw incrementally. I’ve certainly found the sweet spot that way rather than mucking around with the first suggestion.

it never used to be a dark art of the 3x drivetrains did it.. ive got an old Enduro that I setup back in 2003 and never touched it again, I never even changed the cable

I reckon its these new 1x drivetrains that have made it a dark art mate.

thats a good idea for setting it up, thanks, ill give it a go tomorrow cos I have a huge ride planned and ill take the tools to do that on the move.

 

[Deleted member 7291]

Hope it goes well. Would be interested to know how you get on.