Do 12 speeds still make sense for full powered EMTB's?

[CarbonMan]

SRAM seems to be sticking with only 12 speeds for their MTB Transmissions - why?
Sure, roadies want more gears to maximize human performance but with higher power motors today I see no benefit and several downsides to 12 speed.


Downsides vs 11 speed

• Thinner chain with less bearing area so will wear out faster
• Thinner cogs with less bearing area so will wear out faster
• more expensive cassette

Upside

• more gears

I have never ever wished I had an extra gear on my 11 speed Whyte E160!
Can anyone truly say they can tell and want slightly closer gear ratios given the downsides?

I'd like either extra gears or higher ratio, but not at the low end- put them at the high end.
I wouldn't mind a 9 or even an 8 at the top end, given the typical smallish chainring.
But this is probably impossible given hub diameters etc, and chain skip might become a problem even if they'd fit.

 

[zaskarmark]

Coming from the race days of triple chainrings, front derailleurs, 6-7-8-9 speed cog sets, SRAM twist shifters & DID chains, transmissions has gotten simpler AND more complex. Personally, I've struck upon my own sweet spot for my emtbs & meat bikes...10sp.

I live in a VERY hilly area in the northeastern U.S. & whilst 12sp might give more selection, it doesn't necessarily give more power or torque than an equally spaced 10sp cassette. I found the small changes in 12sp gearing aggravating.

We used to argue over which gears should be used on each chainwheel to keep chain deflection/stretch to a minimum. That deflection/stretch is far more than it used to be, & consequently the parts wear much quicker under the tremendous loads placed on the new drivetrains by the motor assistance.

My ride is set up on a short framed hardtail, (I'm still not fond of full sus, my stationary trainer is an old Gary Fisher XO ). 44T chainwheel, 10 sp 11-42 cassettte, Deore long cage & windowless shifter & a KMC E10 chain, all tied to a Bafang m600, 500w power plant & 840wh battery. Maxxis DHR & DHF II 27.5" tires lock me to the trail like glue.

On an average afternoon I might do between 2000'-5000' of climbing, much of it is rough, rocky washouts & rutted single tracks, so going can be very slow. I've found the 10sp transmission I've set up is absolutely perfect for anything I've found to challenge it. Some sections can take an hour or more to traverse a mile or two.

I'll stick with this setup until a proper pinion geared transmission is produced by a major components manufacturer for mid-drive emtbs.

 

[urmom]

Gear range still matters. I have enviolo on my 2 cargo bikes and hate the limited gear range. Going downhill, > 30kph the cadence just gets silly. And going uphill, i wish i had lower gears.

Love the range of my pinion. The range on the other bike (AXS 12 speed) is okay too, but i never wish i had less range.

 

[Montana St Alum]

I'd like either extra gears or higher ratio, but not at the low end- put them at the high end.
I wouldn't mind a 9 or even an 8 at the top end, given the typical smallish chainring.
But this is probably impossible given hub diameters etc, and chain skip might become a problem even if they'd fit.

Just get a bigger front chainring. Have you reached the limit on your frame?

 

[steve_sordy]

For me that's the greatest drawback to 12sp - way too many gears!

All those gears take too long to cycle thru, and with only 14% difference between cogs there's rarely ever a reason to shift just once. Certainly we need the 10-50T range, but divvying that up across 8 gears instead of 12 would vastly improve the riding experience and performance of any bike in high power mode.

It sounds so easy, just divvy up over 8 instead of 12. Yes, it can be done, it has been done - witness the SRAM effort. But the feel of it when shifting is awful. Despite the undoubted benefits of reduced maintenance due to the stronger transmission, I suspect that it is the ride experience that persuades people. Gears are in a geometric progression, not arithmetic, for the best feel. Shifts in the region of 15-16% feels good.

Some numbers:
12-speed gear ratio, top to bottom on my SRAM is 5.2. Twelve gears yes, but only 11 shifts.
5.2 over 11 shifts averages out at 16.2% each.
5.2 over 7 shifts averages out at 26.6% each.

8-speed is a bit clunky when spread over that large a gear ratio.

 

[steve_sordy]

...................
I don't know what the optimal number of gears would be for my riding style, but it's probably well below 11 or 12.

It's a good job then that SRAM have their 8-speed transmission to offer you.

 

[Hob Nob]

It's a good job then that SRAM have their 8-speed transmission to offer you.

SRAM EX1 was almost as pointless - why are we obsessing over the same range cassettes as solely human powered XC bikes have.

You can ride up heinously steep stuff in Trail / Auto (turned down Avinox) and Tour+ / EMTB on Bosch with a 36T cassette.

 

[zizajaun]

I have XT Linkglide 11-50t LG700 on my bike with a 3kw 210nm CYC motor, 36t chainring, 150mm cranks, and I still use all the gears - though rarely the highest or lowest. I'd prefer a cheaper, lighter 8-10 speed cassette but still want the range, to conserve battery and make it rideable if the motor/battery dies.

The XT Linkglide mechs are remarkably fussy - I've been through 4 in the last 6 months, compared to 1 SRAM XO in the previous 3 years. The pivots seem to become very loose and/or very stiff very quickly, so they won't shift down the cassette (to a higher gear) after one or two wet rides, or after exposure to a low-power pressure washer. Given that the mechs cost 60 quid or more, I wish they'd make the pivots serviceable - it seems there's nothing you can do with them apart from trying to force some lube in, which isn't easy. I might switch to the Deore cassette and mech just to save money on the mechs.

The Shimano chains are also pretty crap, sometimes reaching 0.5% wear in just a couple of rides in bad conditions, but the KMC eGlide EPT lasts ages (the KMC e11 EPT is in between the two). I do immersive waxing, with top-ups using drip wax for a few rides in between hot waxes. Currently on Silca Hot Melt with an Endurance Chip + Silca Super Secret drip wax, but will switch to Squirt Performance Hot Wax + Squirt drip wax when the Silca runs out because the Zero Friction Cycling testing found it is both cheaper and more effective. I wax several chains at a time and rotate between them: when they reach 0.5% I take them out of the rotation, until the cassette will no longer take a new chain, then use the 0.5% chains till the cassette is totally buggered. I think I'm still on my first cassette, which I installed over a year ago.

 

[Paco_Loco]

I have been experimenting with this and I have discovered that a 11-36 10-speed cassette paired with a 32T chainring gives me all the range I need in my riding, and I ride in a pretty steep area (North-shore Vancouver and Squamish).

Hence I'm planning to go to Shimano Saint 10-speed next.
This will have multiple benefits for me:

• Ability to use short-cage mech, improving ground clearance and reducing chain length/slap.
• Significantly lighter cassette.
• Far cheaper cassette and chain.
• Bullet-proof mech.
• Shifter with more multi-shift capacity (versus the Linkglide I am currently using).

For me there will really be no downsides to this setup - just multiple upsides.

 

[RustyMTB]

sometimes reaching 0.5% wear in just a couple of rides in bad conditions

Yeah no.

 

[steve_sordy]

Yeah no.

Inaccurate measurement?

 

[RustyMTB]

The idea a new Shimano chain wears to 0.5 in two rides is bullshit.

 

[irie]

The Shimano chains are also pretty crap, sometimes reaching 0.5% wear in just a couple of rides in bad conditions, but the KMC eGlide EPT lasts ages (the KMC e11 EPT is in between the two)

Exactly what are the above "bad conditions" that destroy Shimano chains but not KMC eGlide EPT?

 

[Onetime]

12 speed definitely isn’t needed for todays full power EMTB’s, especially if you have an Avinox motor. I have the M2s and I’m currently using SRAM XX 11 Speed 10-42 cassette with a 34t chainring. I ride steep challenging terrain both up and down in So Cal and on the steepest climbs, I don’t even need or use my 42t cog. The next one down is a 36 and that’s all I really need and even then, that’s only needed on the steepest climbs. Also the advantages for a smaller drivetrain aren’t only more durability, they’re also substantially lighter and more reasonably priced. Less unsprung mass on the rear wheel makes the suspension perform much better and the lighter bike, when also paired with lighter weight components will also handle better, brake quicker and accelerate faster. Win, win, win. If SRAM made a 9 or 10 speed group with a 10-36 cassette that would be ideal. But an Avinox powered MGU and belt drive would be even better.

 

[RustyMTB]

Avinox gearbox coming next week which should kick this thread into touch.

 

[Paco_Loco]

Avinox gearbox coming next week which should kick this thread into touch.

Where you getting that info from??

 

[mark4444]

I'm running a sram dh 7 speed on the m2s motor, and I predict as more people try this, it will start to take over... its like when I switched from rim brakes to disc brakes.. it's a dramatic improvement in almost every way. But I'm not going to say why, just that you need to install it, and give a few rides to get used to it, then you'll see.

 

[zizajaun]

Exactly what are the above "bad conditions" that destroy Shimano chains but not KMC eGlide EPT?

Caked in mud, lapping the bike park at 3000 W / 200 Nm.

 

[zaskarmark]

I have XT Linkglide 11-50t LG700 on my bike with a 3kw 210nm CYC motor, 36t chainring, 150mm cranks, and I still use all the gears - though rarely the highest or lowest. I'd prefer a cheaper, lighter 8-10 speed cassette but still want the range, to conserve battery and make it rideable if the motor/battery dies.

The XT Linkglide mechs are remarkably fussy - I've been through 4 in the last 6 months, compared to 1 SRAM XO in the previous 3 years. The pivots seem to become very loose and/or very stiff very quickly, so they won't shift down the cassette (to a higher gear) after one or two wet rides, or after exposure to a low-power pressure washer. Given that the mechs cost 60 quid or more, I wish they'd make the pivots serviceable - it seems there's nothing you can do with them apart from trying to force some lube in, which isn't easy. I might switch to the Deore cassette and mech just to save money on the mechs.

The Shimano chains are also pretty crap, sometimes reaching 0.5% wear in just a couple of rides in bad conditions, but the KMC eGlide EPT lasts ages (the KMC e11 EPT is in between the two). I do immersive waxing, with top-ups using drip wax for a few rides in between hot waxes. Currently on Silca Hot Melt with an Endurance Chip + Silca Super Secret drip wax, but will switch to Squirt Performance Hot Wax + Squirt drip wax when the Silca runs out because the Zero Friction Cycling testing found it is both cheaper and more effective. I wax several chains at a time and rotate between them: when they reach 0.5% I take them out of the rotation, until the cassette will no longer take a new chain, then use the 0.5% chains till the cassette is totally buggered. I think I'm still on my first cassette, which I installed over a year ago.

Get yourself the cheaper Deore & I'm sure you'll be happy with it. I've had too many issues with XT & up-priced brands to screw with their finicky natures ever again.

Thanks for all of the info you've garnered on the chains/chain wear. That's just bloody BRILLIANT doing a rotation on chains & saving the worn ones for the worn cassettes. It's exactly THAT type of information that is truly useful on this forum. Don't get me wrong, some of the poking fun & jack adding is entertaining as hell, but useful information like yours needs to be in a searchable database. Not just for newbies, but grizzled, old bike riders like me from the Schwinn Orange Crate era.

 

[zizajaun]

Get yourself the cheaper Deore & I'm sure you'll be happy with it. I've had too many issues with XT & up-priced brands to screw with their finicky natures ever again.

Thanks for all of the info you've garnered on the chains/chain wear. That's just bloody BRILLIANT doing a rotation on chains & saving the worn ones for the worn cassettes. It's exactly THAT type of information that is truly useful on this forum. Don't get me wrong, some of the poking fun & jack adding is entertaining as hell, but useful information like yours needs to be in a searchable database. Not just for newbies, but grizzled, old bike riders like me from the Schwinn Orange Crate era.

Yeah, Deore Linkglide 11-48 might be the way to go.

You're welcome, but I'm mostly following Adam's advice from Zero Friction Cycling (apart from the chain recommendations; he hasn't tested those KMC chains last I checked). His website isn't the most user-friendly but there's good info on there for maximising drivetrain longevity and performance. There's a massive difference between lubes and chains so it's worth picking the better ones. That said, Deore Linkglide stuff might be cheap enough that it isn't worth worrying much about optimal lubrication, chain rotation, deep cleaning, etc. Still, there's no reason not to choose a better lube/chain over a worse one if all else is equal.

 

[TheKaiser]

I have XT Linkglide 11-50t LG700 on my bike with a 3kw 210nm CYC motor, 36t chainring, 150mm cranks, and I still use all the gears - though rarely the highest or lowest. I'd prefer a cheaper, lighter 8-10 speed cassette but still want the range, to conserve battery and make it rideable if the motor/battery dies.

The XT Linkglide mechs are remarkably fussy - I've been through 4 in the last 6 months, compared to 1 SRAM XO in the previous 3 years. The pivots seem to become very loose and/or very stiff very quickly, so they won't shift down the cassette (to a higher gear) after one or two wet rides, or after exposure to a low-power pressure washer. Given that the mechs cost 60 quid or more, I wish they'd make the pivots serviceable - it seems there's nothing you can do with them apart from trying to force some lube in, which isn't easy. I might switch to the Deore cassette and mech just to save money on the mechs.

The Shimano chains are also pretty crap, sometimes reaching 0.5% wear in just a couple of rides in bad conditions, but the KMC eGlide EPT lasts ages (the KMC e11 EPT is in between the two). I do immersive waxing, with top-ups using drip wax for a few rides in between hot waxes. Currently on Silca Hot Melt with an Endurance Chip + Silca Super Secret drip wax, but will switch to Squirt Performance Hot Wax + Squirt drip wax when the Silca runs out because the Zero Friction Cycling testing found it is both cheaper and more effective. I wax several chains at a time and rotate between them: when they reach 0.5% I take them out of the rotation, until the cassette will no longer take a new chain, then use the 0.5% chains till the cassette is totally buggered. I think I'm still on my first cassette, which I installed over a year ago.

Get yourself the cheaper Deore & I'm sure you'll be happy with it. I've had too many issues with XT & up-priced brands to screw with their finicky natures ever again.

Thanks for all of the info you've garnered on the chains/chain wear. That's just bloody BRILLIANT doing a rotation on chains & saving the worn ones for the worn cassettes. It's exactly THAT type of information that is truly useful on this forum. Don't get me wrong, some of the poking fun & jack adding is entertaining as hell, but useful information like yours needs to be in a searchable database. Not just for newbies, but grizzled, old bike riders like me from the Schwinn Orange Crate era.

This 10x! Great very specific info, and that idea about saving the stretched chains for when the cassette gets a bit worn is bloody brilliant! It could be especially valuable for anyone on Sram drivetrains with their absurdly priced cassettes where it really pays to squeeze every mile out of them. Also interesting about the new Squirt wax outperforming Silca. I haven't checked the Zero Friction results in a few months, but I would have assumed it was the opposite as Squirt seems to use a bit softer wax which in the past has performed worse, but maybe they have found a way to keep the benefits while minimizing the liabilities.

 

[TheKaiser]

In 2020 I assembled my Dengfu e10 gen1(switched to cef50) with 9-speed 11-50 Box components, box2 ver. Also a compatible cassette is a Sunringle 11-50

PRIME 9

Box Components was created with a rebellious vision and towering objective: to chart new courses and promote forward-thinking products.

boxcomponents.com

Prove me I am wrong View attachment 187270

I think you mean SunRace, not SunRingle. SunRingle only makes wheels, not cassettes. The Box Components cassettes are very reasonably priced, but I had hoped that with only 9 cogs they'd be lighter weight just due to less material, so I was disappointed to see they weigh 600+ grams. That is similar weight to Linkglide, but with 2 less cogs, and I would guess that Linkglide would also have better durability.

 

[irie]

Caked in mud, lapping the bike park at 3000 W / 200 Nm.

And that destroys Shimano chains but not KMC eGlide EPT.

Right.